Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Power (Freedom) vs Acceptance - Being in the "Now" or breaking one's will!?

page: 6
4
<< 3  4  5    7 >>

log in

join

posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 10:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by NorEaster

The material world is only present. This is true. But, being a human being causes you to literally straddle two incompatible physical realms - one that is material and one that is informational.


You are present but you 'think' of another 'time' and this is the two incompatible realms.
This is real and the one in time is not.
This is the division, the separation, the stress, the not feeling whole, the suffering that is the human condition.

When the two become one the kingdom will be revealed.




posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 11:10 AM
link   
The presence is your absence.

What is it in life that hurts? What is it that tortures you in this creation? What is it that makes life hard and unbearable for most humans?
Is it that nagging voice inside that critizes you, says you are not good enough, must try harder, and the list could go on. Don't you wish you could turn that irritating noise off? It is there when you lay on the beach or try to watch a film, when you want to sleep - it is there. It stresses and moans and complains. With all that noise going on it is hard to see the real world.
Or maybe it was only me who suffered this.



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 11:25 AM
link   
reply to post by arpgme
 


Everything that arises, arises presently.
The idea that something happened before is just an idea appearing presently.

youtu.be...



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 11:57 AM
link   
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


There is suffering because we are unsatisfied with how things are. There are various things that cause us to be unsatisfied, but no matter what the object of of our dissatisfaction is, it is always us who has to change our mind.

What we need is a reason to believe that life is more than mundane.

What needs to be realized is that everything is as it should be and everything is fine the way it is. Once you believe this, you will transcend the mundane.



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 12:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by smithjustinb
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


There is suffering because we are unsatisfied with how things are. There are various things that cause us to be unsatisfied, but no matter what the object of of our dissatisfaction is, it is always us who has to change our mind.


It is the disatisfaction, the feeling of unhappiness, that makes us seek, in mind, and in time for what will complete us. This seeking is the 'me', it is the 'me' that is unsatisfied because it cannot find itself 'there'. Only you can complete yourself by finding yourself. Know thyself.
Presence.

It is not the 'things' that make us dissatisfied. The feeling is there and is laid like a veil over 'things'. It is energetic.
edit on 3-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 05:52 PM
link   
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


So if a person isn't here "now' that means that they do not exist? If a person is not around you , they do not exist since "Now" is all there is?

You do not believe in free-will of the body. Do you believe in free-will of the mind? Do people have control over their mind? If they do, then wouldn't certain thoughts lead to certain actions ? If they do not, then why does anything matter? Everything is unfolding and there is nothing anyone can do about ti anyway. they only reason to do something is because we think there is a purpose in the action - without the purpose of action - what motivates the body to action? Do you believe in sub-conscious mind? How do you know if you are "resisting" or if this is just something naturally occurring in mind that needs to happen?



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 08:42 PM
link   
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


The insights are like slippery objects, tangible but never completely in one's grasp. The task is not to grasp it; Presence is not bound by concept, concept is the bounds of the slave-self; Presence is felt [as being] when one has opened their self to accept their self, because the Self = Presence. All things are the self, so all things are to be accepted...it is my belief that this is so.

Knowledge or explanations will never help one attain the so called freedom. If anything the knowledge/explanations are chains. Like a religion, telling you to do this or that to attain "enlightenment" or "heaven" will only ground the principles of control within one's belief system, believing that doing something to control their outcome is/was the goal and the intent for human existence ("slave self" existence)...it is worse when they fight to defend their belief or do things to the extreme for their erroneous belief.
Erroneous, or contradictory rather, because why does one hope to be that which is all accepting while seeking to control (non-acceptance). Heaven or enlightenment, portrayed as something which may be possessed is but the perversion of Presence. In fact, Presence is everywhere and it is our distorted view of It which limits us to think that all things are controllable and knowledge-bound, or in some way malleable by free-will.

This is why I spoke of the non-concept, hoping you would know if the non-concept, or the unexplainable, is something which should even be discussed, because I believed discussion of it could lead one into believing that it could be attained and thus trap them.

I hoped you would say, "yes, even discussing the concept of Presence (non-concept since it can not be explained) is useless" but perhaps relaying this out in the open, that is, saying that trying to grasp how to be Presence, is useful. I would say that it may help one understand that trying to attain Presence (grasp it as a concept) or control their being (the enslaved "you/me") is merely a trap...this will only enslave them further.

The only way to truly free oneself is to accept, to Love, for this is the "action" of the Presence. The Presence accepts all, for all things occur in the Presence. That is the belief I hold.
I think it is dangerous for one to say these things that I mention, because any reader could take it as their way to freedom and then try to grasp how to escape or "be free" by following certain dogmas/steps/philosophies. I can only hope that if they are stuck after they fruitlessly attempt to do so, that they release their self from their own chains.



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 10:01 PM
link   
No one can obtain presence because there is nothing separate from presence.
edit on 3-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 3 2012 @ 11:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
No one can obtain presence because there is nothing separate from presence.
edit on 3-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Well put.
As a matter of seeing another individual, none are "free".
Though, the Presence is indeed "free".
As for "your" process of Being, I assume "you" did not intend to become free, or be aware of presence.
What say you on this?



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 09:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by 1Learner
As for "your" process of Being, I assume "you" did not intend to become free, or be aware of presence.
What say you on this?


The presence is aware(ness).

In the 'story' of before, i suffered greatly (as individuals do) and was looking to stop the suffering (i was begging for help). I had a few therapy sesions and it just happened - at the time i did not know what had caused it. 'It' lasted about a year and then I lost It, because i didn't know how i got it, i didn't know how to get it back. It is back now but i suffered even more after i lost It, until It returned, the grief of knowing this and then returning to the human condition was devastating. I know now that i did not lose it that infact I had come back.
I now understand what happened as i see and hear talk of It, books, you tube etc.
It just happens. It will happen when it does and not until.
edit on 4-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 10:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


So if a person isn't here "now' that means that they do not exist? If a person is not around you , they do not exist since "Now" is all there is?

You do not believe in free-will of the body. Do you believe in free-will of the mind? Do people have control over their mind? If they do, then wouldn't certain thoughts lead to certain actions ? If they do not, then why does anything matter? Everything is unfolding and there is nothing anyone can do about ti anyway. they only reason to do something is because we think there is a purpose in the action - without the purpose of action - what motivates the body to action? Do you believe in sub-conscious mind? How do you know if you are "resisting" or if this is just something naturally occurring in mind that needs to happen?



There are no persons. There is just this. 'This' is sometimes refered to as presence.
What is here is here, whether it is appearing in what we call the mind as a thought or whether it is appearing as sound, fragrance, sight. The thought that appears takes our attention because it seems closer to us, we think it is us. We are mostly absorbed in the thinking and don't notice the colours, noises, sensations, textures.
The mind says something and that's it - it never stops. You think it is you that is thinking but it is not. Thinking is just noise that can be heard.
The only way you will have peace is to realize yourself as the hearer. You are the one that hears thought.
The doing just happens. When the doing is allowed to just do without any resistence it will be seen that it happens beautifully.
edit on 4-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 10:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


So if a person isn't here "now' that means that they do not exist?


If a 'person' came to presence (now) it would die. Presence is your absence. The 'person' would be raptured, the 'person' would be no more and the kingdom would be revealed as oneness is realized.
Then there are no persons, no anythings.
Just this.

Don't get me wrong, it is the same and quite ordinary. Really ordinary but wonderful.

edit on 4-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 01:38 PM
link   
I apologize I did not read the entire thread, merely OP's post in the beginning.

Being present and accepting what is, that means, being neutral to life events, even if the human mind has judgement. Being conscious of what's there, as in, is there a potential for a threat? I am aware of that so that it has less power to harm ,me. Presence is a state of being. Pretending that someone with a knife saying they will kill you and trying to do so won't kill you if you let it happen. That's just unwise. It isn't prudent.

Doing what makes you feel free is still enslavement to the senses, not power. You simply become addicted to entertainment, to drugs, to sex, to games, to tv, to reading, to information, to food. You're unsatisfied with what doesn't fulfill your desires, so you work to match the experience that will fulfill you, while it lasts. The freedom you speak of actually comes in the presence of the first option, to accept the situation, and even if someone is attacking you, or the food isn't your favorite, you don't suffer because of it. Then, if there is a danger, or a more pleasant option for food, you take it.

There is an experience called "Pratyahara" in yoga circles. It means to control the senses, or to discredit the information the senses give you. But that does not mean to hide from, or exclude yourself from information, this limits what you can become conscious of.

The wisdom of pratyahara is multileveled so I'll try to give you the basics.

As a human being our senses are designed to bring our attention to the exterior environment, so that we can be aware of food opportunities, resources, possibilities for procreation, dangers, etc. But what we see is a fraction of the picture. As the senses pull our attention "out" inside of the body, in the guts, in our experience, we are not present. There is a space, which people often try to escape from, via the various types of activities, sports, games, drinking, sex, all of which come, and go, like the wind, and half the time our enjoyment is limited because of our insecurity that the experience will end.

Pratyahara is a mastering of state of being, where, despite a situation that may not seem pleasant, like being outside covered in mud and sludge, yet despite the information your senses give you, you're still happy. You still feel love, you don't need to quick change the situation to feel things are ok.

It's about bringing your attention back within your body, and fulfilling your own needs inside, via a state of being, via conscious awareness of what you are, not the image you want to project of yourself.

Many people misunderstand this wisdom. For example, many monastics say you must go to the temple, shave your head, avoid looking at attractive parts of the body, avoid great variety in flavor of food, simple exist in peace.This is wonderful. The Buddha himself suggest that many avoid contact with all people who are in any professions that do harm. This was all to encourage the most favorable environment for a state of peace. Yet, if someone avoids all things that can cause temptation or conflict, you do not master their power on you, you are simply not triggered to react.

Eckhart Tolle, who mastered the specific "present" wisdom so greatly, he also suggests an avoidance of harsh music, violence in movies and TV shows, the news. It would help someone's state of peace.

But there is a next step to that Wisdom. Pratyahara...Avatar. The Avatar portion of the process, is about, discredit your senses, fulfill yourself in contemplative absorption, BUT STILL be in the world. For example, Krishna was often drinking, partying, having sex, going to war, but he was so fixed in his state of divinity that he never lost touch with it, regardless of what happened. Sakyamuni Buddha was so absorbed in this that even when he was dying of food poisoning which he did consciously, he remained fixed in his state of consciousness, Jesus Christ was such a master, that he kept his focus on God, even among whores, being beaten, and upon the cross "Forgive them, they know not what they do."

The Pratyahara, reclaiming the importance of divine consciousness over sensory input, being absorbed in the highest state you can experience, and still being fully engaged in life and it's events without losing that fixation. Avatar. In being exposed to the suffering of life, you can master it and discover it's wisdom.


Because we are not fulfilled inside, we seek events to fulfill us, this is your "Path of Power." Yet, to be fulfilled inside, regardless of how extreme life events become, is the ultimate goal.

BTW, you don't have to accept to die as Jesus. The Buddha avoided a murderer and used it as a teaching. Krishna killed those who fought him, acting as a tool of Karma. It was a different way. Be wise. Stay absorbed in divinity, regardless of what you face, find the wisdom in it.



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 02:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by NorEaster


Observation is actually experienced as "immediate memory",and has been determined to occur between a half second to a full seven seconds after the fact ( www.nature.com... ) so forget the "being in the now" like ever.


If what you write is true it is a wonder more people don't die on the road.

This is what you linked as proof that you can never be in the now (present):
There has been a long controversy as to whether subjectively 'free' decisions are determined by brain activity ahead of time. We found that the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness. This delay presumably reflects the operation of a network of high-level control areas that begin to prepare an upcoming decision long before it enters awareness.
End quote.

Do you believe that this quote says you are never in the now?
Do you think that what you have written reflects what the link says (quoted and copied above)?
edit on 3-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


What happens and what you experience as awareness of what is happening occur at different instances. There is a quantum of "now" and all of physical existence is based on that quantum unit. Your mind (the conscious "you") emerges from your brain's survival processes in sync with this quantum rate of change, but it does not emerge at the same exact rate of change. Kind of like how minutes are synced up with seconds and hours are synced up with minutes. The research proves that the human experience of sentience is immediate memory (from .5 sec to as much as 7 sec - depending on the process required to prepare the instant as experience that doesn't clash with the logical progression of the instant that preceded it) Researchers have focused on the decision process, but it's more fundamental than decision. It's the nature of conscious awareness as created by the material brain.

You can never be in the "now" as a fully cognizant participant. The brief period of processing that occurs before each segment of "now" is allowed to be experienced is a survival trade-off between instant perception and structured perception. Structured perception is much more desirable, since consistency of ongoing perceived reality is a basic requirement when dealing with moment to moment survival. A second or two of lag time generally won't cause you disaster anyway. Not within the ordinary, everyday progression of events. If a car accident occurs, that second or two probably won't save you or kill you. A completely vulnerable perception stream - on the other hand - could easily become a crippling nightmare. The brain is your primary survival processing center. It protects itself from the most pervasive threats, and an unstructured perception stream is as pervasive a threat as can exist for any brain.

Sorry. You've already lost "now" to the natural process of corporeal sentience. You'll always be behind the curve regardless of how hard you try to believe otherwise. When you die, your post-corporeal sentience won't be delayed. I guess that's something to look forward to.
edit on 12/4/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 06:38 PM
link   
reply to post by TheGreySwordsman
 


Is the discrediting of information from the senses similar, if not equal to, examining (or being aware of) the self as it appears in feelings (and being aware that it is in fact one's self)? Have you engaged in Pratyahara?



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 07:12 PM
link   
reply to post by 1Learner
 


More or less the same experience. There is something more than merely feeling the awareness in the emotions, there is a greater range of experience but I think you understand. There is something, the absence of consciousness that we experience "inside" as being projected outside. Pratyahara brings that presence back within, automatically bringing with it more clarity, peace, perhaps a state of love. The particular flavor that is dominant can vary.

The way most US yogis these days teach it is "as you pay attention to the breath and the movement of the body, and because of this gaze, your attention is not on exterior circumstances. " This has a remarkable calming effect, and this begins to set people on the quest to discover what they are, as they become more acquainted with paying attention. The tendency is to forget it when not in practice.

Buddhists try to practice this, often with mindfulness practices, and things like Vipasana. It is merely my opinion that in general they abstract from their lives forms of temptation or distraction, rather than observing the reactions inside, and calming them, as I suggest in proper pratyahara, and mastering their experience, and I certainly do not group all Buddhists in this commentary. But that's just my point of view.

I practice Pratyahara, yes, in fact I practice Pratyahara Avatar. Being so absorbed in a state of seeking truth, reverence for divinity as I make love, as a martial artist I coach attacks me, as the news relates what could be considered troubling information, as I eat, as the boss tells us to work faster. I do not claim to master the experience, merely that I practice. Get more fulfillment from, "God" than flesh. The internal information becomes very very rich, yet I do not ignore what is around me. If a car is coming to hit me, I don't doubt it's existence. I would discover oneness with the windshield very quickly, and this would not be prudent or compassionate towards anyone.



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 10:42 PM
link   
edit on 4-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 4 2012 @ 11:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by NorEaster


Observation is actually experienced as "immediate memory",and has been determined to occur between a half second to a full seven seconds after the fact ( www.nature.com... ) so forget the "being in the now" like ever.


If what you write is true it is a wonder more people don't die on the road.

This is what you linked as proof that you can never be in the now (present):
There has been a long controversy as to whether subjectively 'free' decisions are determined by brain activity ahead of time. We found that the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness. This delay presumably reflects the operation of a network of high-level control areas that begin to prepare an upcoming decision long before it enters awareness.
End quote.

Do you believe that this quote says you are never in the now?
Do you think that what you have written reflects what the link says (quoted and copied above)?
edit on 3-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


Please answer the specific questions i asked.
Do you think what you linked says the same as you have said?
edit on 4-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 04:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


So if a person isn't here "now' that means that they do not exist?


If a 'person' came to presence (now) it would die. Presence is your absence. The 'person' would be raptured, the 'person' would be no more and the kingdom would be revealed as oneness is realized.
Then there are no persons, no anythings.
Just this.

Don't get me wrong, it is the same and quite ordinary. Really ordinary but wonderful.
edit on 4-12-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)


This is where you always lose me. You say that there are no things, and yet clearly there are.



posted on Dec, 5 2012 @ 05:23 AM
link   
Acceptance is freedom....and gives me peace.






top topics



 
4
<< 3  4  5    7 >>

log in

join