Ok, who can prove magic exists?

Originally posted by LadyV
Then why are you here, in this thread? I am assuming that Delta is serious and wants to know, If one wants to learnb something that you can test for yourself, then that's the beat way to do so..so it has been suggested that he try it for himself. If you are so sure that there is nothing there to leran...whay are you here.

Because Delta originally asked anyone to PROVE magic existed.

Posted by DeltaChaos:
Who can submit, provide, produce, or otherwise procure any physical evidence of the existence of magic? Anyone?

What about psychokinetic powers? Premonition? Telekinesis?

How about results taken from psychic readings, palm readings, astrology, anything of this nature?

This topic, I believe, belongs in the sci/tech forum because I'm asking for the subjecting of these fallacies to the scientific method. Why is there no proof on record that these things exist?

He didnt ask to be taught about magic, or to learn what it is, he asked for proof. That's what I'm here for.

I read his post and was honestly quite interested at first, but after reading 6 pages of "try it, study it, learn it!" and stories and in my opinion MYTHS, I have yet to see any proof.

Then why are you here, in this thread?

I'm here, not wanting to LEARN what magic is, but to SEE PROOF. I'm here to get this topic back on track and find proof. If all you can do is tell me I have to try it myself to find proof, then there is no proof. Theres absolutly no way for me to indulge myself into magical beliefs beleiving it is all fake before I begin. That in itself, goes against everything you keep preaching, that you have to believe its real before learning it.

What you're asking me to do (learn it and perform it myself) is equivelent to telling a Muslim to try Christian religion to find the truth about God. (Metaphor)

Originally posted by QuietSoulHe didnt ask to be taught about magic, or to learn what it is, he asked for proof.

And I am telling him the best way to get it that proof.

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by QuietSoulHe didnt ask to be taught about magic, or to learn what it is, he asked for proof.

And I am telling him the best way to get it that proof.

I'll reword my last statement..


What you're asking him to do (learn it and perform it himself) is equivelent to telling a Muslim to try Christian religion to find the proof of God.

Lady V,

I dont study magik, nor do I have much experience in this subject. When I was younger, I had a friend that was in to crystals, and he told me that the crystals were a form of majik. His input is the only real exposure I ever had to this subject. We had a few long discussions on the matter, and this is what I have come to understand about this subject through my friend. Magic in its mythical since (Summoning big fiery demons, a flying carpet, ect) isnt an ideal projection of real majik. Real magik is more about knowing ones self, and learning how to use this knowledge. The best way I can describe it is being one with yourself and the natural energies around you. Am I on the right track with these assumptions?

NO it's not. He want absolute proof, no one can give that to him where he will believe it, I can't explain it to him...how does one prove something like this. It's like your wanting someone to levitate something for you...it just doesn't work that way. If he, or you, want absolute proof with no questions about it...you'll have to prove it to yourself.....it would then be absolute

Originally posted by Kidfinger
The best way I can describe it is being one with yourself and the natural energies around you. Am I on the right track with these assumptions?

You are most definitely on the right road there!

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by Assassin
Hmmm...

maybe it's explained HERE.

Magical Trevor! That was cute. Good break from the discourse!

Everyone check out Magical Trevor!!! You will smile!

Thanx Delta!...


As for this threads topic...

Proving magic exists is like this: I ask you "Do you love your mother?"

You reply "Yes, of course I do."

My response is "PROVE IT."


You see, you can't prove it... it just is. Either you love someone or you don't. Noone can tell you that your love is there (in your heart). No matter what deeds you perform to show your mother you love her, it still doesn't prove a darn thing...

The same question can be asked of tons of different things: God, feelings, magic, etc, etc...

Ok, I'm going to part from this thread.. there is no proof.

And, just to build on my metaphor..

If a Muslim asked a Christian how he could PROVE his God is real, and the Christian told him the only way he could find the PROOF would be to become a Christian, the Muslim would laugh in his face.

So, in spite of our debate, I'm laughing in your face.

No proof.

Sorry!

Originally posted by LadyV
Then why are you here, in this thread? I am assuming that Delta is serious and wants to know, If one wants to learnb something that you can test for yourself, then that's the beat way to do so..so it has been suggested that he try it for himself. If you are so sure that there is nothing there to leran...whay are you here.

I am serious and I do want to know. If I'm serious about chemistry, and I want to know, I can start a thread called, "Ok, who can prove chemistry exists." At which point there will be probably 300 members willing to give me all kinds of factual data to back up the claim of chemistry. Actually, since chemistry does exist, that thread would die instantly because it's such an audacious question.

So if I wan't proof of chemistry, do I have to go recreate all of the tests that have ever been done in chemistry to prove to myself that it exists? No, the tests have already been done, documented, observed and repeated.

Paul Richard has provided some very little information to lend credence to the claim that magic is real. But some of this evidence is 30 years old. Usually, when a technology, or science, or concept, or idea is found to have substance in the real world, it gains momentum and becomes more prevalent as discoveries are made. Practice results in improvement. Magic is just as obscure now as it was back when they were burning witches for using magic. Were they really witches? Were they actually casting spells?

No. The people who believed the people they burned were actually witches casting magic were ignorant. They were ignorant in believing in magic.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Magic is just as obscure now as it was back when they were burning witches for using magic.

With good reason - Wicca, Witchcraft, Crafting, whatever you wish to call it in a sense is in a modern 'burning times' in that people still have a predisposed notion that it is evil.

Witches are just now, the last decade or so, trying to come into the public light - we don't "want" to be hidden, nor ever have, but look at what has ALWAYS happened!. But it is hard, damn hard. There was a case in Texas very recently that Wiccans moved into a house, and the neighbors verbalized that they FEAR THEM !!!

Think of how hard it is/was for a gay person to 'come out of the closet', same goes for Witches.

Misfit

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by Kidfinger
The best way I can describe it is being one with yourself and the natural energies around you. Am I on the right track with these assumptions?

You are most definitely on the right road there!

So what magical results can be shown by one being one with themselves?

Are you saying that the natural energies around us can somehow be harnessed by the individual and manipulated to cause an effect on the environment? If so, how? Not how is it done, but how can the environment be manipulated?

Could one call upon the natural energies around us to say, stop a man from falling to his death from a building? Could an object be moved from one place to another with nothing but natural energy?

Does this natural energy have a belief system that will only allow a person of similar belief to manipulate it? That must be some smart energy. All of the energy I know of doesn't choose to work for some people and not others. It's like saying there were only a certain type of person that could flip a lightswitch and make the lights come on.

If I said to you look my dog pooped in the yard go get some and taste it because it taste like the best thing you ever had. Of course you would say I'm crazy but how else could I prove it. Well I could eat a piece but you would just think I'm nuts and still would not believe it. So the only way for you to prove that I am for real is to try the poop.

You heard the sayin that the proof is in the poop right?

Signed,

Puddin Head

BTW

Here is a paranormal for ya...

english.pravda.ru...

[edit on 24-10-2004 by evecasino]

Are you threatening me? My name is not cornholio

RA-KAKAKAKAKAKA!




At any rate, I can say with some surety that I have experienced things that, although 'magic' was not in any way related to any of them, were far beyond the scope of what we know as science.

I present for your approval one of the core tenets of science, taught to me by one Dr. Joseph Carter, professor of paleontology at the University of North Carolina: science does not approach, or attempt to explain, the metaphysical.

The very meaning of the word 'metaphysics' is, in its original Greek, 'after the physics', so named because Aristotle published his treatise on the metaphysical after his works on the physical world. The two fields have a sort of gap of respect between them, as far as most are concerned, and neither really tries to explain the other.

Compare art to science... how would you describe the aesthetic appeal of a symphony or a painting in purely scientific terms? I beleive that much of what we have not explained remains a mystery simply because we are using the wrong methods of explication.

Consider also Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle... the observation of a thing changes the nature of a thing itself. While Heisenberg may have meant his theorem to be applied to particle physics, it holds true in a number of other things as well, including anthropology, sociology, art, and metaphysics.



There is very little that we really understand; remember that many of the greatest minds that have ever lived preached this fact every day of their lives.

Originally posted by Misfit

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Magic is just as obscure now as it was back when they were burning witches for using magic.

With good reason - Wicca, Witchcraft, Crafting, whatever you wish to call it in a sense is in a modern 'burning times' in that people still have a predisposed notion that it is evil.

What I meant by this was that there is just as little evidence of magic now than there was then. I have a preconceived notion that evil does not exist, and this is why I don't want to burn anything or anyone. I don't believe in evil, just as I don't believe in magic. Which is the reason witches are no longer burned. People realized that they weren't real, just figments of their superstition.

Witches are just now, the last decade or so, trying to come into the public light - we don't "want" to be hidden, nor ever have, but look at what has ALWAYS happened!. But it is hard, damn hard. There was a case in Texas very recently that Wiccans moved into a house, and the neighbors verbalized that they FEAR THEM !!!

These Texans were probably some conservative, religious types who would be scared equally if some skinheads, or punkers, or bikers, or anyone not like them moved in. This doesn't say anything about fear of Wiccans, is says something about the lack of willingness on the part of the people they moved next to accept anyone not like them.

I would never be afraid if Wiccans moved in next to me, because I know that they are just regular people who have chosen an image in an attempt to set them apart from, or find inclusion in, a particular subset of society. They can't cast a spell on me, or themselves, or anything. They are just the same as anyone else, though they would defianltly reject the notion.

[edit on 24-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

DC, bear with me on this for a minute, as its not off topic as it sounds. I have been studying martial arts for a big part of my life. I hold a blue belt in Hapkido, and a green belt in Akido. There is a phenomenon called Chi that is taught to students once they are mature enough to handle the responsibilities that go with it. I have been practicing Chi for a little over a year. I can affect my body with Chi. An example is called the unbendable arm. I could lay my hand on your shoulder palm down, and you could grasp my arm at the elbow with both of your hands. No matter haow hard you try, you will not bend my arm. This is all happening while my arm is completly relaxed. There are Chi masters that can focus there Chi on there voice. They can knock you down by yelling. There are also accounts of these Chi Masters blowing out candles 20 feet away from them by focusing thier Chi and 'throwing' it at the candle. My Sensai is able to hold his fist less than an inch from your chest, yet still manage to punch with enough force to knock you down, as well as knock the breath out of you.

I suspect that true magic is something like this. It is about focusing your energies and concentrating them where needed. I have never seen anyone claim to be demonstrating magic accept my friend mentioned above. When my friend used his crystals, it was for things like mood improvement, better focusing on a task, and other such physical manafestations. What I think Lady V is trying to say here is you are not going to see your fairy god mother make a carrage from your halloween pumpkin, but you can do things like heal faster, release lifes stresses, and to some extent, I think people may also have the ability to tell if a loved one is in pain, or going through a tramatic experience, while being far away from that loved one. I think this is all natural. Its energy that exist in you, me, and every one on this board, as well as every living thing on the planet. Of course, this is all just MO

Originally posted by evecasino
Here is a paranormal for ya...

Pravda? You gotta be kidding, right?

DeltaChaos:
I am serious and I do want to know. If I'm serious about chemistry, and I want to know, I can start a thread called, "Ok, who can prove chemistry exists." At which point there will be probably 300 members willing to give me all kinds of factual data to back up the claim of chemistry. Actually, since chemistry does exist, that thread would die instantly because it's such an audacious question.

Well, yes. The problem here is that you are referring to hard science. Not getting apologistic here but the question relates to a science whose nature is perhaps much more in line with the softer sciences such as psychology, sociology, economics. Any "proof" would have to be along statistical lines. These other sciences have something in common with your topic of research and that is significant involvment of human conciousness.

For example: if you were to ask a question like: "Does the freudian interpretation of conciousness exist?". The responses you would get could be:
No.
The Jungian interpretation is best.
Conciousness is just an illusion.

I don't imagine that anyone claiming that it magick exists would say that it a 100% reproducible, and always brings the same results.

If you want proof that will satisfy you then one suggestion might be to more tightly focus your question - it covers a lot of bases. If magick is as I suggest a bit more statistical as a science then in feasible research on its provability is always going to be open to your subjective interpretation. So hence the suggestion that has been made that the nature of your experiment is probably better related to you and your efforts.

I saw a suggestion that remotely seperated groups might be a good test case, one of the posits of sympathetic magic (according to the anthropological study of JG Fraser in the Golden Bough - worth a read if you are interested in how humans have interpreted this area historically) is that there is some sort of link to the subject of the experiment.

Some of the remote viewing experience seems to give an indication of clairvoyance and is a little documented.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by evecasino
Here is a paranormal for ya...

Pravda? You gotta be kidding, right?

It's not only Pravda

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.google.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Kidfinger,

Subtle body energy, I believe. I've studied accupressure and practiced it a little, and it was that little practice alone that convinced me of the reality of Chi or Qi. I've had acupuncture, which helped me with a sinus problem that I had. My father has arthritis in his neck and shoudlers and accupressure and accupuncture helped him.

The 'unbendable arm' reminds me of a technique called 'touch for heath' that I also had instruction in. It was a combination of Reiki, reflexology, and other energy work disciplines, with the purpose of realigning the natural symmetry of the body. Simlar to Krav Maga, the Israeli form of self defense that was built from other disciplines.

I have looked into Qi Gong, which is the art of the outward projection of ones Qi, but there is little evidence of these masters being able to actually project it. There is much more evidence of the master being able to use the energy within himself, but not project it.

I believe that Chi energy can and will eventually be detected, measured, and brought into the mainstream as a legitimate practice of medicine. If chi exists in all people, then all people have the ability, to some degree, to learn how to use it. It doesn't require you to believe in a certain diety, or perform certain rituals to 'earn' the right to study it. It just simply is there, completely neutral, independent of what we may think of it.

Western medicine has always been opposed to eastern medicine and philosophy, because western medicine is based on control. Eastern medicine is based on the natural flow of life. One day, there will be a confluence of these two philosophies and medical practices.

That will be good.

Originally posted by uss_eldridge1943
Well, yes. The problem here is that you are referring to hard science. Not getting apologistic here but the question relates to a science whose nature is perhaps much more in line with the softer sciences such as psychology, sociology, economics. Any "proof" would have to be along statistical lines. These other sciences have something in common with your topic of research and that is significant involvment of human conciousness.

I see what you're saying here. I think that psychology, sociology, and economics are 'soft' sciences because they don't relate to actual physical attributes of the universe, only our subjective interpretations of them, and in the case of economics, relate only to a system which we have created. They won't ever be 'hard' sciences in the sense that we could never observe objectively the results of phenomena. That, and the conditions for all of these disciplines are constantly in flux, and manipulated by the people that they concern. Though in time, we will be able to more accurately predict outcomes based on conditions with these 'soft' sciences, as statistical data is compiled and the data sets become more complete.

Magic suggests the control of energy or power to manipulate the environment around the user. If the energy exists, it exists independently of us, one would think, as all other forms of energy exist independently of us. They are just forms of energy.

Some people in this thread suggest that the amount of success in magic is proportional to the strength of the users faith or belief. I don't think forms of energy care how we believe or how much, and wouldn't react to it anyway. This is just pure animism.