Ok, who can prove magic exists?

I can't believe how many posts have been made to this thread. It was a VERY simple and straight forward question. If magic is real. Prove it. All I keep reading is people talking about "energy seeping into the earth", "you don't understand" and basically "you can't see it if you don't believe in it to some extent" etc etc.

I believe the original posters' intent was a simple demonstration. A practioner of magik, sits down at a table, with the poster. Says "Ok, now I am going to make such and such happen", they do the spell, and either "such and such" does or does not happen. This "spell" is then repeated for arguments sake let's say 5times, in different locations, at different times, with thorough checking before the spell is started that there are no hidden wires, or whatever equipment magicians use to conjure stage magic.

You then document these results, using both cameras, video AND hand written notes, and repeat the experiment on say, 100 other practioners who have had NO contact with each other. At the end, you analyse the results which will either suggest magik is indeed real, or it isn't.

It's really not that hard to understand. I'm sure if the original poster wanted a theory / history lesson on magik he/she would have gone to the nearest library..

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

We are. We are storytellers. We like to tell stories about things we don't understand. And in the interest of telling a good story, with the hopes of someone listening to our next story, we embellish and exaggerate it to make it more sensational. Or to induce fear of eternal pain and lonliness in an attempt to control the thoughts and actions of the masses. Which works very well, by the way.

You totally managed to take my neutral statement and turn it to your side. Almost didn't catch it, too. Kudos

By the terms "Faith" and "Belief", I didn't include only religion. Politics, economics, morals, ethics, pretty much everything is about a belief. Belief reinforced by facts.

An example of why we need beleif-
The world is round. Accepted fact. There are many people who have never been in a plane, therefore have never seent he curvature of the Earth. However, they still accept the facts that the Earth is round because they trust those that tell them. As such, saying that the earth is round is a belief. It's all a matter of how much you trust the facts you can get your hands on.

Of course, don't even get me started on how life in and of itself is an irrational venture. Trust me, you're just as guilty of irrationality and blind faith as everyone else here is

Originally posted by Byrd
REAL horoscopes are a form of divination: formation of a consensual reality (as discussed before.)

Right. Consensual reality. Suggesting a reality to someone that they would prefer to the current one, and that someone agreeing to it. Maybe enough so that they create it themselves.

This is self actualization. The diviner only plants a seed of what might be, while the person does the legwork.

How do heavenly bodies and their positional relationship to the individual have an effect on the person?

Originally posted by Esoterica
You totally managed to take my neutral statement and turn it to your side. Almost didn't catch it, too. Kudos

And you are truly neutral at all times it seems. At least on this thread. How the hell do you do that? Magic?

Trust me, you're just as guilty of irrationality and blind faith as everyone else here is

Yeah, just continuing this line of conjecture is irrational. The magic arguement is just as unprovable as the religion one. Unless magic exists, then it's perfectly provable. But we're still here, so what can you do?

LordGoofus,

Yeah, that's exactly the idea. Just a scientific test. A controlled observation of magic in action.

But so far, I am uninitiated, so I can't see magic happen. Or magic doesn't work around someone who doesn't believe in magic (that's the most convenient excuse of all). Or its really hard to do. Or it only works some of the time.

My favorite, though, is the one that goes, "If you don't believe, I can't explain it to you". That's the epitome of circular logic, and those who use it don't even know they are. These people who use this excuse should be in sales.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
This is a step toward subjecting a phenomena to scrutiny of science. Which all things should be subjected to. Eventually, science can find the reasons behind everything that we observe in this universe.

Well, no.

(ohboy... launching into Anthropology and folklore. Really, one of these days someone is going to lynch me.)

Academics can tell you that there are several types of systems for determining reality (and here's actually where there's a lot of stress and contention in archaeology of all places.) There's science (which we all know about).

But there's also "social beliefs" (a.k.a. "common sense") and there's no hard measurement for these or any way to formulate a set of rules that passes for "common sense" (which is why it can't be taught and people either have it or don't have it.) These are necessary for society, but there's no formal truths. Often these are extrapolated from a few examples.

(case in point: one of the early fights in archaeology was over pits in the ground that were filled with burned corncobs. One archaeologist said these were for tempering pottery (based on one instance of American Indians doing that in old ethnographies.) Another scoffed and said it was for tanning hides (based on one instance of American Indians doing that in ANOTHER set of old ethnographies. The corncob pits weren't from either of these groups. Here we have two scientists using "common sense" and coming to different conclusions. This is a type of decision/sense-making system used, but all the science in the world can't tell us exactly what THOSE particular pits were used for.)

Magical practices are, as you've just had demonstrated, social beliefs (psychology is another science based on social beliefs and believe me, nothing about it is really replicateable.)

In anthropological terms, they're a folklore belief and a mythic belief also. They hold reality for their practitioners, and that's all we can say about them. We can show an outside observation, but we can't determine more than that.

For example, take the famous mystics of previous centuries (St. Francis is one of my favorites... a gentle and kindly man. Ghandi would be another one.) They had some sort of relationship (a strong and mystical one) with their deities and some 'conversing' with their deities.

We can't measure it. We can't replicate it. It was a reality for them, but there's no way of scientifically judging it.

We can look at what it did for them and to them; we can observe externally. But it's an internal reality (and it IS real) and one that can't be measured.

Byrd,

Humans are irrational, so yeah, the results they produce won't be replicable. This thread is proof of that. As far as St. Francis and Ghandi are concerned, aside from their strong religion, I think they were just gifted with an immense amount of common sense.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Byrd,

Humans are irrational, so yeah, the results they produce won't be replicable. This thread is proof of that. As far as St. Francis and Ghandi are concerned, aside from their strong religion, I think they were just gifted with an immense amount of common sense.

Actually, many mystics AREN'T gifted with immense amounts of common sense. Otherwise they'd just shut up about these things, y'know?

And I would point out that humans are rational. We draw conclusions about the reality of the world and assume that it's consistant and that it can be modified. If we were truly irrational, we'd never have survived because we'd have all done illogical stuff that led to us being eaten by dire wolves or cave lions or Smilidon.

DC
And you are truly neutral at all times it seems. At least on this thread. How the hell do you do that? Magic?

Realized that everyone BS'es as much as I do, so there's really no point in taking sides
But seriously, I tend to see things from both points of view. It's hard to really get down on someone when you understand where they are coming from, even if you don't agree. After all, I might be wrong.

Originally posted by Byrd
Actually, many mystics AREN'T gifted with immense amounts of common sense. Otherwise they'd just shut up about these things, y'know?

And I would point out that humans are rational. We draw conclusions about the reality of the world and assume that it's consistant and that it can be modified. If we were truly irrational, we'd never have survived because we'd have all done illogical stuff that led to us being eaten by dire wolves or cave lions or Smilidon.

Being believing creatures doesn't preclude being rational.


[edit on 10-23-2004 by Esoterica]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by evecasino
There is majic in the listening of Tenacious D.

You must seek the treasure.

LONG LIVE THE D!

Quit your day job!

I love the D and think they make a better ticket than kerry/edwards or bush/cheney. Seeing an acoustic version of wonderboy from the U.N. or G8 summit would be worth the price of admission. In all seriousness though I think if if the principles of magic could be proven from a scientific angle then the word "magic" would no longer apply. Then they would be laws of physics or phenomena or universal principles not hocus pocus. The fact that it can't be explained makes it "magic"(jazz hands at the screen).

doctorduh

Originally posted by doctorduh
I love the D and think they make a better ticket than kerry/edwards or bush/cheney. Seeing an acoustic version of wonderboy from the U.N. or G8 summit would be worth the price of admission. In all seriousness though I think if if the principles of magic could be proven from a scientific angle then the word "magic" would no longer apply. Then they would be laws of physics or phenomena or universal principles not hocus pocus. The fact that it can't be explained makes it "magic"(jazz hands at the screen).

Yeah, at this point, I would probably trust Jack Black to do a better job than either one of these poor excuses for choices we have.

And that's basically what I'm getting at. Prove the magic with science, then use it. Magic could change the world. I really don't think there is any magic, though.

DC,

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Paul Richard,

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Finally someone can actually attest to these things actually having happened. A television show or a stage isn't the best place to study these phenomena. I think that if these people can do these things at all, even if intermittently, they should be tested in controlled settings.

Actually, controlled testing has already been conducted with a number of people like
Matthew Manning and Uri Geller.

I quote:

~~

i dont think one can use a tape measure to measure Gravity

i dont think one could use a scale & balance to measure Solar Radiations

0 ~0 = 0 it's a NULL question of Proof

* our newtonian-cartesian science/physics CANNOT quantify the HOLOGRAPHIC-Quantum nature-CONSCIOUSNESS (which is all creation)

+

Originally posted by St Udio
~~

i dont think one can use a tape measure to measure Gravity

i dont think one could use a scale & balance to measure Solar Radiations

0 ~0 = 0 it's a NULL question of Proof

* our newtonian-cartesian science/physics CANNOT quantify the HOLOGRAPHIC-Quantum nature-CONSCIOUSNESS (which is all creation)

+

You're wrong. The only way we know that gravity exist is because it has been measured (both on this planet and others)

I havn't read that entire thread, but i'd suggest someone goes to library and pulls out some books on diabolism, witchcraft etc and give it a test. I'm sure however some hardcore scientists would just be under a placebo effect, achieving what they wanted to know in the first place.

This is a discussion which has been going on (in a slightly different form) on Usenet for years. Those demanding scientific proof or even proposing a scientific study of magic and witchcraft always run into a brick wall. Is it that magic is false or cannot be proven? No. The fact is, many magical and witchcraft traditions are secret for a very good reason. The most powerful rituals and techniques are not shown to just anyone, as taken out of context they can easily be abused by those seeking power for power's sake.

I point you to the governmental studies of the paranormal (the most material released being that associated with remote viewing). Both the Russians and the U.S. were funding study not just to see if magic & psychic phenomena work -- they were looking for something to use against "the enemy". Note that the remote viewing documentation indicates that targets were classified, so the viewer had no real control over where s/he was "aimed". Imagine the possibilities of this in a magical context! It is a perversion of everything magic stands for.

Magic and occult practices come with their own "checks and balances". Some are in the form of moral & ethical constraints. Others that involve entities also bring with them a certain amount of will on the part of guardian spirits and a certain amount of autonomy on the part of the entity invoked. If a magician invokes a demon or other entity in a scientific study and it doesn't manifest, there's probably an excellent reason for it -- and that reason may involve danger to the magician and the magical/pagan community as a whole. Few entities will participate in such an undertaking.

And what would happen if large numbers of Witches and magicians prove that magic works in a scientific setting? Remember again that a large percentage of scientific study is funded by the government. Consider the red flags that would go up if we consistently prove that we are indeed able to influence thoughts, actions, and the outcomes of certain events! Do you think that the fundamentalist Christian element in government (or even the military) would look kindly upon us? Hardly. Elimination, persecution, restriction and/or control would be the result.

History has shown we must be wary of over-exposure. Thus the veil of secrecy and oathtaking with regards to what we do. In the wrong hands, the consequences could be horrific -- both for the magic-users and those against whom they may unwittingly be used.

If you really want proof that magic exists, try it for yourself. Start simple, with any candle-magic spell you can find on the Internet. Remember, however, that with magic and the occult, doubt is crippling and will undermine any magical undertaking, as you get out of magic what you put into it.


Edited to correct typo in "crippling".


[edit on 23-10-2004 by Hecate100]

I'm sorry that I awoke this thread but I had to add this for all disbelievers.

Last evening I had a dream and in the course of the dream I lost a tooth.

Funny but I have all my teeth and they are in real good shape no visits to the dental repair shop "YET". But... Wait till ya hear this.... This morning my daughter calls me and tells me that my grandson received his first tooth. This is my first and only grandson. Coincidence? No way!

I only see my grandson (who is now 9 mos. 23 days) about every other week as we live a distance apart. Please don't try to tell me it is because discussion of teething or my concern of his teething because this has not been discussed since 4 weeks ago when he was chewing on a teething ring and hasn't been discussed since.

I know it is not majic but it is relevant to the process of belief.

I've had a fair bit of experience with telepathy and preminitions.. every couple of years I have 'bouts' where I'll have alot of strange stuff happening and am yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation for.. I'm kind of gald that I haven't had them for quite a while. At one stage it got so intence that daily I was able to predict people who would ring [who usually didn't]- what they wanted and when the phone would ring.. that someone we hadn't seen in years was going to turn up the same day wanting to borrow money [so we'd shut the blinds and pretend to be out]. Some of it was handy stuff.. like finding something that lost.. but the main one was when my ex was changing the front tire on the car- head under the wheel arch and I 'saw' it fall and said "that jacks about to break through the floor'.. he had time enough to pull his head out to give me a dirty look and the car crashed down grazing his hair.. this 'vision' saved his life. Now this I wouldn't call 'magic' as magic is suppose to be pretty and fantasy like with pixies and whatever. This scared me.. and him. I've tried to come up with logical explanations.. like it was bound to happen as the car had rust in it.. but that never occured to me as being relevant before hand.. besides which it's a pretty big coincidence to happen within the second I say it and.. if coincidence.. 'imagine' it. Intuition.. I did 'feel' the metal flex with the 'vision' as far as I remember.. but that may've been my 'hearing' it on an unconcious level or something. I used this as an example as other's weren't so definite and it's kind of a black and white situation. I think the main problem with scientifially studying things like this is that they usually only come into play in high stress situations.. like when a parent 'senses' there child is in trouble. Recreating it would be difficult.

MAGIC IS ABOUT AS FAKE AS ANYTHING GETS I MEAN WHEN A MAGICIAN(A FAT PERSON THAT MAKES SOMETHIGN DISAPEAR) MAKES AN ILLUSION EVERYONE IS LIKE OMFG ITS MAGIC BUT THE THRUTH IS THAT MAGIC IS JUST MIRRORS, UR MIND MESSING WITH YOU, OR YOU ARE JUST RETARTED

Dude, you're gonna probably get points taken away for that. Think before you speak, said ancient fat wise man who sits on hill day and night without a life giving out stupid pieces of info later becoming cool sayings like this thousands of years later.



I should take that saying into account too, I suppose.....