Ok, who can prove magic exists?

Here is a 13-year scientific study of Near-Death-Experiences, published in The Lancet in 2001:

profezie3m.altervista.org...

PDF file:

www.zarqon.co.uk...

The shocking conclusions:

62 (18%) patients reported some recollection of the time of clinical death (table 1).

Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE. We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological, or physiological factors caused these experiences after cardiac arrest. Sabom22 mentions a young American woman who had complications during brain surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.

With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE, the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that consciousness and memories are localised in the brain should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience.31 NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation.

Research should be concentrated on the effort to explain scientifically the occurrence and content of NDE. Research should be focused on certain specific elements of NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences.

I know it may be hard to accept, especially for people who dislike the idea of a 'soul', but here u have it: a scientific study which basicly proves that consciousness can survive the death of the brain.

Originally posted by Raideur
I gave up back up there. Believe what you want. If you want to think we have a soul, so be it. However, when you die, come give me a visit.

I do not like to think people are close-minded, however, when they respond in such a way to a reasonable discussion there is little other conclusion that I can draw. Perhaps it is a failing of mine.

Turning a blind eye to the possibility only serves to render ones life mundane and hopeless... it is not that the possibility doesn't exist, it is that one feels they cannot afford to believe or they have a bias against certain kinds of information in order to merely discount it.

There are excellent supportive posts which you could easily address, and if you had truly given up, you would not keep posting in the topic. Look with an objective eye upon what other members have referenced and refute them if you believe they hold no water or even the potential of validity. Be passionate if you believe we are wrong, do not concede merely because you feel we won't be convinced. You would be surprised at how many people DO actually reconsider a stance when a glaring fault is pointed out.

If anything, at least let us put forward interesting things that make make you go "Hmmm..."

It is unfortunate to give up.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
I have a question for a non believer.
What kind of proof would you need?

A simple test with repeatable results, like in science class.

Example:

You cast spell A, which causes result B, and repeat. If the results are the same consistently, then the magic spell works. Then we can work on the why.

I mean, if people are casting these spells anyway, why can't anyone watch? And why doesn't anyone report having witnessed it. If something is real, then there are people who observe it? If no one has observed it, then how can it be known to be real?



[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

maybe it happens on some other plane of existence or something...and therefore invisible to anyone but the user...i dont know just throwin ideas out there

Majic is not getting a fair trial here.

The thread author unfairly dismissed the Uri Geller study as too old and not backed up by further research.

Here's some further research: www.mysteriouspeople.com...

A lot of guys can 'bend spoons' and Geller's and Manning's ability were scientifically proven to exist.

If you want to collect your own evidence, do some 'Magic'; Make a ouija board or do the party trick where you lift someone up with just fingers. I'm not saying it's ghosts, but it works and it is easily reproducable. (Interestingly, both examples I site require 4-5 people. Perhaps 'Magic' is social)

We are surrounded by magic . If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating anyone try the things I mentioned. They do 'work' but I don't know how and they might be dangerous. Strictly adults only and don't do it with a bad attitude.


[edit on 20-9-2005 by rizla]

I have done the single finger person lift before, and it worked first try, to the amazement of myself and most others present. As for ouija boards, I believe they work, though I don't feel comfortable using them. One reason is that I recall a schoolmate years ago bringing one to show and tell. It was a small Christian school, and the headmaster despised ouija boards. She gathered the whole school out back, denounced the board as evil, and then burned it in a large metal drum that was used for burning garbage. As it burned, the hairs on my nape stood up, and all my friends were equally chilled by what happened as it burned. Loud whistles, shrieks, and moans which all sounded like someone in pain came from the burn barrel as the gameboard burned. I was about ten years old at the time, and except for once at about 17, never used a ouija board. That earlier incident always stayed with me, and has been enough reason for me to stay away.

Originally posted by rizla
Disclaimer: I'm not advocating anyone try the things I mentioned. They do 'work' but I don't know how and they might be dangerous. Strictly adults only and don't do it with a bad attitude.

Especially concerning the Ouija board, practice of Ouija is not Magic, as it is a connection, not an event. Weather one believes in the power of Ouija, very nasty things may result using one. NOT believing in what it can do, leads to the worse of results. Been there done that, then learned about what I was dealing with - as a result of the knowledge, I've not touched one since, nor will I.

Misfit

BlackGuardXIII, I find your ex-headmaster scarier than the ouija board.

Originally posted by Misfit
practice of Ouija is not Magic, as it is a connection, not an event.
Misfit

Why it isn't it majic? The glass goes round and round, showing a deplorable disregard for physics.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by rizla]

I don't know why people insist that anything is magic. Everything once not understood was seen as magic. If someone moves a pen by thinking of it, and isn't faking it, then it is part of quantum physics or similiar theory, not magic. Once understood it will be in "Scientific American" rather then "FATE".

Originally posted by rizla
Why it isn't it majic? The glass goes round and round, showing a deplorable disregard for physics.

Magik is an action of an individual, energies called on and invoked by the individual towards a desired effect.

Ouija is a portal, a doorway to whats not here. Any half-ass with no clue of Magik and little if none of Ouija [nor its consequences] can open doors with it.

Misfit

Originally posted by Misfit

Ouija is a portal, a doorway to whats not here. Any half-ass with no clue of Magik and little if none of Ouija [nor its consequences] can open doors with it.

Misfit

Doors to what?

Perhaps Magic is in a sense a sort of science. I am not sure how science would reconcile personal channelers or the spiritual realms layered over our own reality.

As for Ouiji, it is a dangerous thing to tamper with. I am sure there are people talented and cautious enough to use it properly, but the fact that they sell it as a toy is ludicrously inappropriate and hazardous.

But then, invoking or calling any spirit must be dealt with in the utmost care and caution.

I still offically gave up on this thread, but one thing just begs me to question, how on earth can you believe that a mass produced toy can be evil, the ouiji board! How?! Its a piece of plastic!?

Funny Question. Tell me, how can you believe that air can be harmful to a person if there was a nuclear blast in the area?

Raw reported experiences of people's interactions with Ouiji boards shows that in many chaos malevolent things happen. Like Jars flying from across the room that were sitting on a shelf to try and smash into a persons head (Aimed directly for them), amongst other things.

Now, unless you care to explain why many of these situations happen in a scientific manner, perhaps you should do a bit of research before commenting.

[edit begins]

To better answer your question, people shouldn't call a Ouiji board evil. Much like a hammer, it in and of itself isn't malicious. A hammer can be used to smash your skull in as well as hammer in a nail, as such, the proper use of a hammer isn't dangerous. Perhaps a chain saw is a better analogy, as you can lose limbs if you do not handle it properly.





[edit on 9/25/2005 by TheCrystalSword]

This is why I even continued this thread, to question things like this and ask if you can prove that the ouiji is actually magical or evil or whatever. I cannot let such absurdities go without question.

Can you prove it has some paranormal power, and yes I did look it up, theres an equal amount of sites pointing to proof and others claiming its all complete bull. I honestly cant trust any of them. The internet gets a bit blurred when it comes to such topics.

If I bought one, would it attack me?

It entirely depends, Raideur. Just like if you leave your door open, there is a percent chance that a thief or a murderer will walk in, there is also a chance they won't. The same goes for spirits.... just because you open a door for them doesn't mean they WILL come, only that they MIGHT.

Working from this premise, I wish to also note that spirits are very similar in a way. Malicious people look for opportunities to take advantage of so that they can rob or hurt people. So do malicious spirits.

If you wanted to conduct an experiment concerning it, you would have to work along a month premise, try it on a daily basis, and also introduce people who claim to be "Spiritually sensitive."

The best of luck on that last part. Most spiritual people do NOT fool around with Ouiji boards. Negative spirits tend to feed off of people that can sense them, so it's like putting out a steak in the middle of the woods and being surprised that a bear shows up.

Dont worry, if I have a soul, its dead and buried, and I dont fear any spirits, since they have yet to show themselves, and if they are intent on hiding behind luck, well I say to them, you dont exist.

I still dont understand how a mass produced piece of plastic, not even something tainted, could do such things, and of course, how is a whole other story.

Well, recall that sand is a mundane thing... but if put in the proper configuration makes glass. Or, better yet, carbon. Carbon forms buckyballs, and nanotubes, and many other structures. Carbon also forms most life.

It isn't what it's made of that is important, it is.... hard to explain, I suppose. It is the intent which infuses an object, what it was intended for. Particularly with things less mundane, such as Ouji boards. I myself am uncertain what particular quality takes simple cardboard and plastic and somehow manifests other things. I am sure some people know, or did at one time.

It is a worthy question of asking, though, what exactly makes a Ouji less than mundane.

If one does not believe in the paranormal as real, of course they will not believe that spirits can have any effect on their life. Therefore a ouija board, seance, voodoo ritual, hex, spell, etc., are, in their view, unable to summon forces or spirits of any kind. I have no answers as to how any kind of magic works, other than to say that I am certain that much of what is called magic is sleight of hand, distraction, etc.
My beliefs are not answers, and they are only of importance to one person, me. I share them with others only because it seems like the right thing to do, but I do not expect to be agreed with, nor care if I am believed. That said, I see ouija boards, etc. as a tool, designed for a purpose, and as such it is neither evil, nor good. Just as a piece of lead can be made into a paperweight, or a bullet, both are neither good nor bad, and both can be used for good or evil. Water can save your life, or kill you, but is it either good or evil?
Since I have reason to believe in spirits, and find ouija boards 'creep me out', I don't play with them. That is my choice, and irrelevent to anyone else. If they have concluded that spirits are not real, that is what is true for them, and I support them on their life journey. I feel the world is big enough for everyone to have differing experiences, and therefore differing views, and at the same time all be on the right path. That in itself is kind of a magic thing in a way.

DeltaChaos
Who can prove magic exists?

Maybe I'm confused here but the problem with this thread is not the "answer" but is the question.

It's like if I were to post a thread asking "Why is water (in liquid form ) dry?".

Maybe that's a bad analogy but you should get the point.

For years hypnosis was thought to be "magic" untill it was proven and thus forth left the realm of "magic".

Most posts I see in this thread deal with the supernatural (like magic) which by definition means:Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

Now, since we define science as: Such activities restricted to explaining a limitied class of natural phenomena; The question is unanswerable.

With these two definitions we see a few things.

1.This thread does not belong in the science & technology category.

2.The question makes no sense since once proven these things leave the supernatural category and cease to be "magic".

Science is an ever evolving process, not set in stone, and as it evolves we'll make many discoveries in the future that are unexplainable by today's standards.

What you call "magic" today may just be energy related science tomorrow.

Furthermore, since you didn't take the time to ask a logical question in a "science" forum; I would ask that the mods move, lock, or delete this thread.


[edit on 26/9/05 by redmage]

Its been tried in paranormal and got flammed to the ground.

However, lets stick with Ouiji boardsc and their ability to be a tool to channel evil. How can that be possible within the laws of physics and if so, can it be proven?