Ok, who can prove magic exists?

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posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by Raideur

Why would something depend on the mood of an observer? Does this produce any tangible or detectable effect on the area? Can you really know if someone believes it or doesnt?


Not saying that i agree with the idea, but isnt this also how the placebo effect works? If a person doesnt believe he has a real medicine that will make him healthy, the placebo effect wont happen.

I think the general idea is that if the mind causes something by willing/believing it, then a mind that does not will/believe something, wont cause it.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by plop]




posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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*stratches head*

Um, well, I suppose that implies some type of extra sensory/communication/ force projection/ something to perform such things.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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when I was young forgot how many years ago I could swear to god I made it snow in Santa Cruz CA


no joke
call me a liar fluke weather or whatnot but hey its what i Believe



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 02:14 PM
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Here is an image that goes with the experiments i posted on the previous page:




posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 04:34 PM
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Actually, I didn't say "if you don't believe you can't see it", I said "If you are a skeptic, your skepticism until provided evidence ruins any magickal effect". Not only are you not seeing it, you are mucking up someone's effort at Magick.

If a person could approach a situation without expectations or denial based off of reality, then perhaps they could see evidence. Very few people like that exist.

I believe in magick on general principal, I have witnessed no effects and nothing to support my view, and I am only a magickal layman. My gut says it exists, thusly, I go with that intuition.

Despite my lack of actual experience with such, I look for reasonings and places that it might "FIT" in reality. Or possible correlations in other realms of thought (Hence the scientific stuff, Quantum Mechanics is very important to this kind of stuff).

Of course, I am not attempting to convince anyone of anything other than giving up their firmly held positions of certainty. I always accept the possibility of all things being true.

Which is nightmarish for me, at times.



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 08:02 PM
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I too voted you for Way Above CrystalSword.

I think there is a very good definition of Magic, that needs to be kept in mind, Arthur C Clarke defined magic as "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

www.lsi.usp.br...

To me that is exactly what "Magic" is. It is science that we don't understand yet. The paranormal, supernatural, parapsychology, whatever. They are all related. They are all fields we dont fully understand.

As I said in a previous post, At the time of Salem, two girls had unexplained seizures. This was "Magic" Today we know what it was, no longer magic. Not that long ago, chiropracters were considered "quacks" and "voodoo medicine" now we know they work. And even less time ago, if you went to a doctor and said "I'm really sick and I think it is because of stress" He would have laughed you out of his office. Today it has been proven that stress causes any number of serious illnesses. Meditation was just something "those weird hippies" did. Now doctors, and psychiatrists alike recommend. Why? They have been proven to work. They slipped from "magic" or "voodoo" to scientific proof.

Personally, I think for most people, fear keeps us from "seeing" magic. But one example of how it works is, how often do you (general, not specific) get a cut, scratch, burn, etc and don't even notice it. Don't feel it, doesn't hurt UNTIL you see the injury. Then it hurts like the dickens! Mind over matter. When you see magic, it changes you. Suddenly, you have to realize that what you do matters. Not an ego thing. But a responsibility thing. Both accepting your part in responsiblity, and accept what isn't your responsibility. And heck, most people can barely accept responsibility for when they get caught letting their dog doody on the neighbor's yard, much less for the bigger things in life. But responsibility is different from blame. There is too much blame. Responsibility you identify the issue and you learn from it. If it needs fixing, you fix your part. If you did something right, you identify it and take it with you for the next time.

Just because you haven't seen magic, doesn't mean it doesn't exist (Thanks for the open mind CrystalSword). I have never seen Madagascar, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And thanks CrystalSword, I learned more about quantum mechanics in two posts that I knew combined before!



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 11:22 PM
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Life is not what happens to us, life is how we respond to what happens to us. author unknown
'Those that say they can and those that say they can't are both right.' Henry Ford
'We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are.' Anais Nin
'Imagination is more important than knowledge.' Albert Einstein
'The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.' H. J. Haldene
'Where there is great doubt, there will be great awakening; small doubt, small awakening; no doubt, no awakening.' Zen proverb
'The foundations of a man are not in matter, but in spirit.' R. W. Emerson
'Cleverness is not wisdom.' Euripedes
'I always prefer to believe the best about everybody - it saves so much time.' Rudyard Kipling
'If I do not believe as you believe, this proves that you do not believe as I believe, and this is all that it proves.' Thomas Paine
'If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't.' Lyall Watson
'It takes a smart man to know how stupid he is.' Barney Rubble

These quotes are some that I hope convey my feelings on the subject of reality, magic, and perspective. I have seen magic myself many times, and I do not mean the magic that is in the world all around us all the time, like unconditional love, selfless sacrifice, joyful charity, and endless service, or the natural world, rainbows, snowflakes, honeybees, plants, and animals. I mean the kind that science theorizes is not real. Like, precognition, astral travel, contact from the spirits of loved ones who have died, levitation, and telepathy. I could choose not to believe in those things, but I'd have to dismiss my own observations. It is possible that all those things were times when I was deceived, or delusional, or embellishment, and of course others must wonder if I am dishonest, which is fair enough. I don't think any of that is the best explanation for it. These things have happened too many times, all my life, in every setting..... and I just listed a sample. It is totally fair for others to discount the reality of these phenomena, but I am no longer able to do so in good conscience.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 12:14 AM
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First thing that came to my mind when i saw this thread up again.

true.wxcs.com...

Debunks Uri and a few others.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 12:56 AM
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I saw him catch a televangelist who was receiving information in an earpiece, on stage, from staff interviewing relatives of those on stage with him.... The crowd had been amazed by the 'telepathy' he appeared to have. But Randi dialed into the radio frequency they were using and exposed him. Yet I think he is still on air........?
Still, I cannot see how even the Amazing Randi could debunk the things I have seen. I have not yet seen it anyway. How Copperfield could have flown around our local arena, carrying a lady from the crowd in his arms, is beyond me. There were no wires or cables, and he flew quite high into the air, well over his own height, and even inside a clear box with a lid on it, to show the wirelessness. It was puzzling to me, for sure.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 03:27 AM
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To prove anything scientifically requires that thing to be understood.

Any kind of magic understood ceases to be magic.

Further - anyone who can work magic doesn't have to prove anything to anyone - except maybe themselves.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 05:05 AM
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I don't know if anyone can prove magic.....all it is, is energy being manipulated....if anyone believes in the power of the mind....there is magic.

exactly. positive thinking.

Consider, it has been time-tested and proven that quantum states are effected by observation, what this means to me is that willpower can effect the physical existence

a scientific way of saying the same thing as above. if you jump off a building, there is a small chance you will float gently to the ground. This could potentially explain telekenisis, magic, and all manner of psuedoscientific phenomena.
I don't claim to have any magical powers myself, but I've read about the subject (fascinating) and its all about positive thinking.
we need some more experiments to be done, using traditional magic from different cultures around the world.

...or maybe its all rubbish. It wouldnt surprise me.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 07:48 AM
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You all still believ that the human spirit is something special, that it is something amazing and intangible and defies all logic, yet must exist..
Why?

Because we WANT to believe it rather than what the evidence points to.

If you honestly want to believe in this, it is hopeless for me to present any evidence to contradict it, as is life and the world, since it feels better to believe, thus, science is pointless in this arguement.

I've just about had it trying to have you look at this from an objective view, because you just want to believe it and thus it can be blatantly wrong and as long as the world is happy believing it, it will be real. Just disgusts me.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by DeltaChaos
All right.

Who can submit, provide, produce, or otherwise procure any physical evidence of the existence of magic?


Depends on your definition of magic. Maybe you find the following research interesting.



Olson K, Hanson J, 1997. "Using Reiki to manage pain: a preliminary report." Cancer Prevention Control 1997, June, Vol.1(2): pages 108-13.


The purpose of this study at the Cross Cancer Institute, Edmonton, Canada was to explore the usefulness of Reiki as an adjuvant to opioid therapy in the management of pain. Since no studies in this area could be found, a pilot study was carried out involving 20 volunteers experiencing pain at 55 sites for a variety of reasons, including cancer. All Reiki treatments were provided by a certified second-degree Reiki therapist. Pain was measured using both a visual analogue scale (VAS) and a Likert scale immediately before and after the Reiki treatment. Both instruments showed a highly significant (p < 0.0001) reduction in pain following the Reiki treatment.




Brewitt, B., Vittetoe, T, and Hartwell, B., 1997. "The Efficacy of Reiki Hands-On Healing: Improvements in spleen and nervous system function as quantified by electrodermal screening". Alternative Therapies, July 1997, Vol.3, No.4, pg.89


Improvement in spleen, immune, and nervous system function were quantified by electrodermal screening, and a reduction of pain, an increase in relaxation, and more mobility was reported in patiens with chronic conditions as multiple sclerosis, lupus, fibromyalgia, thyroid goiter.




Aladydy, Patricia and Kristen Alandydy, 1999. "Using Reiki to Support Surgical Patients". Journal of Nursing Care Quality, 1999 Apr;13(4): pp. 89-91.


Surgical patients at Columbia/HCA Portsmouth Regional Hospital in Portsmouth, New Hampshire are given the option of a 15 minute pre- and post-surgery Reiki treatment. In 1998 more than 870 patients participated. As a result there was less use of pain medications, shorter lengths of stay, and increased patient satisfaction. This article discusses how this program was set up. Plans for the future include documentation of the benefits and the further use of complementary therapies.



I could post a lot more, but an interested mind can find the needed information easily. I also agree with someone else's comment: the moment that something 'alternative' or 'magic' is proven in scientific research, will you still dfine it as magic?

Also, an idea getting more and more support in quantum physics is that we are leaving the scientific era of particle physics behind us, and start to realize that all that exists can be defined as wave functions. Even our physical atoms are build of vibrating energy, wave functions. Our thoughts are also wave functions. Can you see how thought can interact with all other 'material'? I know, I do not post any scientific references here, but the open minded person will be able to find the information needed


Other supporting material you might want to check out are the hundreds, thousand of well-documented case studies of out of body experiences for example, or regression therapy with information retrieved during the sessions confirmed later in the 'present' time.

I know, doesn't sound very scientific
But do you think the round earth theory sounded very scientific in a society that was convinced that the earth was flat ?


New discoveries need time to be accepted by the established scientific community, but when these new discoveries are proven after a while (which can be years or decades!), it means that these new discoveries were already valid when they were first proposed, doesn't it? They were already valid when no support from the scientific community was present yet. I'm not saying that all the 'hocus pocus' brought forward will eventually be proven valid, but a part of it will be



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Raideur
If you honestly want to believe in this, it is hopeless for me to present any evidence to contradict it, as is life and the world, since it feels better to believe, thus, science is pointless in this arguement.
I've just about had it trying to have you look at this from an objective view, because you just want to believe it and thus it can be blatantly wrong and as long as the world is happy believing it, it will be real. Just disgusts me.


I chuckled when I read your post. What is so disgusting about the fact that other people have experienced things that you, nor science, can yet explain. I don't believe just cuz I want to. Not even close. Dozens of personal experiences convinced me. If you don't believe, thats fine. But it doesn't make you right. You could be wrong, and I know for certain that some of the theories scientists learn now will someday be proven wrong, cuz it happens all the time. It has to in order to learn anything new. I am objective, analytical, a critical thinker, and I believe. If that disgusts you, then that is your choice, but it is beyond me why you should think that you know whats right and the believers are wrong. I cannot imagine what your life has been like, and vice versa. If you had lived my life, you would likely not be saying that.



posted on Sep, 13 2005 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by Raideur
You all still believ that the human spirit is something special, that it is something amazing and intangible and defies all logic, yet must exist..
Why?


Well, yes. I belive that the point of being human is to be more than the sum of your parts, more than just the same all singing, all dancing crap of the world. More than the same decaying matter as everything else.

I feel we are defined by our human behavior, and that our pursuit of the unknown has been the only reason we have come as far as we have.

I also know that improbable events tend to occur with human interaction. Anamolies... humans, more than any other creature, break the mold more often. Nature itself surely did not intend some of the feats we have accomplished, or some of the aberrant behaviors we've developed.

I have found that believing in the goodness of mankind, and the higher spiritual calling does tend to disappoint me more than I like. But, would you call Socrates foolish? Plato? Aristotle? Copernicus? Einstein? Feynman? Nietszche? Heidegger? Hume? Edison? Franklin?

You know, I could keep going with names. All these men believed in human spirituality ("Zer Wille Der Macht" for Nietszche) for humanity's sake. If these men can believe in the mysterious and be called great minds, who are you to call them fools? Perhaps they are fools. Can you prove it?



Because we WANT to believe it rather than what the evidence points to.


Listen... and listen VERY carefully, and I sincerely mean this...

Lack of Evidence is not evidence to the contrary.

As such, you have provided no EVIDENCE that states magick is impossible or has never happened, you have not conducted any experiments that definitively prove that the phenomenon doesn't occur, you have not interviewed or pursued the possibility of the real existence, and you have discounted or ignored evidence in SCIENCE ITSELF of possible phenomena which are incurred by A) Observation, or B) Sheer willpower.

Just because you do not have evidence does not mean that you can so cleanly close a case. The Questions remaining unanswered is what drives the human passion, the human spirit. The things we don't understand is what pulls us and fulfills us.



If you honestly want to believe in this, it is hopeless for me to present any evidence to contradict it, as is life and the world, since it feels better to believe, thus, science is pointless in this arguement.


Science isn't pointless, it is a valuable tool if used correctly. Science is not a hammer to smash all things which do not fit in your pervue... science is a scalpel applied gently to the skein of mystery to cautiously reveal each layer of truth.

Giving up, in the end, is JUST giving up, and you fulfill nothing, prove nothing, and only serve to disappoint and encourage the concept that you will give up when things don't go your way.

Don't give up, only cede if you find you should.

Oh, and there is ALWAYS hope.


I've just about had it trying to have you look at this from an objective view, because you just want to believe it and thus it can be blatantly wrong and as long as the world is happy believing it, it will be real. Just disgusts me.

You haven't been objective, you have been trying to prove to others that their beliefs are wrong. You push on the wall, and it pushes back, it is common physics knowledge. The more energy you put into punching the wall, the more energy hits your hand.

You haven't even responded to some very good, scientific evidence in this topic which is rather supportive of "Will Empowered Change". If you don't address the things which are local to your understanding of the universe, how can we accept that you are being "OBJECTIVE"?


space_friend12 said:
Also, an idea getting more and more support in quantum physics is that we are leaving the scientific era of particle physics behind us, and start to realize that all that exists can be defined as wave functions. Even our physical atoms are build of vibrating energy, wave functions. Our thoughts are also wave functions. Can you see how thought can interact with all other 'material'? I know, I do not post any scientific references here, but the open minded person will be able to find the information needed


Wave form interference is an excellent supportive argument for "Will powered reality alteration". This is why I brought the field of quantum physics to the fore, this is cutting edge research providing some rather spooky realizations to most physicists. Recall, Physicists are often very static in what they understand, it is necessary for what they do. Imagine the years of training and learning that went into their field, and imagine what Quantum Physics is doing to their brains.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by Raideur
You all still believ that the human spirit is something special, that it is something amazing and intangible and defies all logic, yet must exist..
Why?

Because we WANT to believe it rather than what the evidence points to.

If you honestly want to believe in this, it is hopeless for me to present any evidence to contradict it, as is life and the world, since it feels better to believe, thus, science is pointless in this arguement.

I've just about had it trying to have you look at this from an objective view, because you just want to believe it and thus it can be blatantly wrong and as long as the world is happy believing it, it will be real. Just disgusts me.


The truth is that nothing in science predicts consciousness and nothing in science has an explanation for it. The truth is that there is an enormous amount of scientific data which does suggest there is more to the mind that is currently known (including studies which basicly prove that consciousness can survive the death of the brain). Add to that the personal experience of 6 billion people (im talking about the experience of being able to make decisions - which is paranormal because it implies mind over matter).

Also, someone mentioned Randi in here.
Randi is not a scientist. His opinions and claims are irrelevant to the scientific status of any paranormal phenomenom.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 02:35 AM
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I have to say Plop I am still getting over Graph #3, there it is in black and white: Scientific confirmation of Telepathy.

Not that I ever had any doubts of the reality, but rather I have always doubted Science's ability to understand TP well enough to actually prove it.

I have to give credit to the researchers involved, they had to have gone into this with truly open minds. Finally a group with the willingness to accept whatever they found rather than ones searching to disprove something they find hard to accept.

It has been said in this very thread:

Humans do not have an active EM field: They do
Thought cannot affect anything over a distance: It can
Science will never prove it: It has

I always hate to be a Thread killer, but since we are on page 20, I feel willing to take the risk: What more can you ask for?

This is only the beginning, lets just hope we are wise enough to handle what is sure to come.


A.T
(-)


[edit on 9/14/05 by Alexander Tau]



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 03:41 AM
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So I must agree that thought can affect distant events. I have seen much more evidence over this past 2 years, as well.Whether we'll be wise enough to face what lies ahead. lol, no offence, but my view is 'not a chance'. But thats okay, cuz we don't need any. How much wisdom does one need to be punished. Its easy, we just take the lumps. I have this odd belief...... odd even for me, that we each will all do the right thing. It all works out, and we don't need to worry that we won't do enough. If we do nothing, thats enough. Its all good, hang loose, live and let live........peace bro's and sis'. We can't lose, no matter what. I know, it is an odd view, but I am content with it.



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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It occurred to me a few moments ago... Raideur, we have not defined what sort of standard you consider acceptable evidence.

Secondly, Why not conduct an experiment yourself concerning such things? There are many different avenues one might take to gather data which might indicate one way or another the "Power of Human Will" as it were, and all of it is out there waiting.

If that isn't preferable, at least define for us what you consider to be insoluble evidence. (I do not use the word "PROOF" because nothing can be "PROVEN", only surmised based off exhaustive evidence.)



posted on Sep, 14 2005 @ 01:41 PM
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I gave up back up there. Believe what you want. If you want to think we have a soul, so be it. However, when you die, come give me a visit.





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