Ok, who can prove magic exists?

It is in the heart. To me that says it all. Our brains are great for survival, but our hearts are what holds our feelings. Without heart, a genius brain, like Hitlers, is worthless, or worse, harmful. With heart, the most simple brain can work wonders. All of life is how we respond to what we encounter, and if we do so with love, trusting others, supporting and believing them, accepting them regardless of their faith, etc., then our lives will be rich. If we do so with logical, rational, emotionless, calculating, critical analysis, and skeptical suspicion, then I feel that life will always feel like something is missing. It is cuz something is missing... love.
Love is magic. A blade of grass is magic. And levitation is magic. 'When man can make a blade of grass, I'll be impressed', said Edison, when asked his opinion of the modern technology.

.....The heart.....

Oh come on...we go from possible EM detection in the brain, which is very possible considering our understnading of it, to magic lying in your heart...

Your heart is just an pump. Life is just a system, and to assume it is something special and magical and utterly sacred is giving it too much credit. Star formation is not life as we know it, but very complex and on a much grander scale. Totally lifeless.

Life is a chemical process, and to that end, we are nothing but chemicals.

If you tag life with the concept of something special, you are groping for an object to place your respect and trust in as a mental support. One that will remain there because it is special.

Sometimes I wonder if the entire concept of magic is just our pathetic brains trying to make ourselves feel special about the world because nature is cold, harsh, and completely scientific and effecient.

Um, first I don't recall ever specifically talking about EM only in the brain. I was talking about the whole body.

Secondly, you have to understand that magic has changed over the years. However, the term magic tends to encompass the events/activities in life that we don't have a full explanation for. As each thing is identified, it gets moved into the scientific realm. For example, the Salem witch trials. The initial start of it was because of two girls that went into unexplained seizures and visions. The only explanation that they had was "It was magic". Today we have an explanation for that. It was a form of mold that grows in grains. It can cause seizures and hallucinations. Now, it is explained and is a scientific event. Not a magical event.

As we have evolved, so has the term magic. It still describes those things that we can't fully explain. We just know it happens. We have some explanation, but not a full one. We know if you do certain things, you get a result. But don't know what causes the result. Or at least, don't fully know.

'Your heart is just an pump. Life is just a system, and to assume it is something special and magical and utterly sacred is giving it too much credit.'
Raideur

I respect your belief, and accept that for you, that is reality, and just as valid and true and real a belief as mine.
I know that in my life I have heard, read, and seen too many things that defy the view you have come to accept from what has happened in your life.
There are two books by CardioVascular Surgeons which record accounts of heart recipients whose tastes and behaviours changed, and the Dr.'s were intrigued because they changed to those of the donors.
One case of a young girl who received the heart of a young murder victim tells how the information the recipient got from her 'imaginary friend', who coincidentally had the same name as the donor, which gave details of a murder... was detailed enough to lead the police to find enough proof to catch the murderer. Other cases include a Mexican boy who started saying the word 'copasetic', a word which no one around him knew, but was the donors common word for 'all right'. His girlfriend was allowed to meet the boy, to apologise to her boyfriend, who died following an argument, she said 'everything is copasetic', and the mother freaked out. 'that word, he says it all the time. what is it? what does it mean?' It was the couples way of saying that everything is all right, after an argument, which was what she wanted to meet the boy to say.
The two books are full of cases, they are the reason for the books being written. The Dr.s saw so many examples they felt compelled to share the information with others, since it was amazing to them.
Any mother will tell you that a heart is more than an organ. It is not the subject of so many popular catchphrases for nothing, nor the symbol of love by chance. Ya gotta have heart, his heart wasn't in it, all my heart, the bottom of my heart, heartache, heartbroken... there are far too many to list. If it is just a pump, then that is an odd behaviour for people to consistently use it to refer to emotional strength, for millenia.
It could just be coincidence, but I am convinced it is not.

What's the name of those two books? I would be very interested in reading them.

You exist, you use something called the internet to talk to people across the globe, you feel love, you feel joy, you ARE.

That is magic, this is a miracle.

Some people put too much wonder in the workings of the universe.....

Perhaps magic is just science beyond our realm of understanding, but you have to love those who claim to harness it to their wills, yet cant reproduce it.

That is the type of magic Im on a mission to destroy, not science to be discovered. Debunk the false claims and maybe discover a few things while we're at it.


Egos inflated with magical nonsense in need of a popping.

Originally posted by Raideur
Some people put too much wonder in the workings of the universe.....

Perhaps magic is just science beyond our realm of understanding, but you have to love those who claim to harness it to their wills, yet cant reproduce it.

That is the type of magic Im on a mission to destroy, not science to be discovered. Debunk the false claims and maybe discover a few things while we're at it.


Egos inflated with magical nonsense in need of a popping.

I agree with you to a degree, egos never need inflating... but sometimes you have to take into account your beliefs ... I for one don't believe in coincidence so if someone were to perform say Candle majic for me and the next day it produced whatever its purpose was, than I would have to believe in majic...
but whatever actually makes stuff like that happen is really unknown... one could crack it up to the Holy Spirit... it would be the least egotistical approach...

Originally posted by Ariande Tau
What's the name of those two books? I would be very interested in reading them.

I don't know the names of the two books, but here are some related links.

www.thenaturalconnection.net...

www.ca.uky.edu...

www.freerepublic.com...


www.globalcellularrental.com...

Originally posted by Raideur
.....The heart.....

Oh come on...we go from possible EM detection in the brain, which is very possible considering our understnading of it, to magic lying in your heart...

Your heart is just an pump.

I`d agree with this as i`ve never even thought about this before to be really anything but a pump,other than the heart is affected by emotions slight or extremely.

Which i then wondered if their is any affect on a persons personality emotions dreams etc after a heart transplant?though they would probably be the only ones who would know for sure,going through the surgery trauma would change anyone to a degree,so its probably silly of me to speculate.

This is a reply to the first message where it is asked to show scientific examples of 'magic'. Over the years ive been interested in the subject (the paranormal) and mostly from a scientific point of view, so ive collected a whole range of scientific experiments which demonstrate or suggest something paranormal is at work. I try not to rely on 'skeptic' websites, nor 'believer' sites, since both are rarely objective.

Here are some example, which seems to demonstrate telepathy, or as science calls it "Transfer of Neural Energy Between Humans":

The purpose of this study is to determine whether visual evoked potentials generated in one human brain by photostimulation can generate a correlated EEG signal in the brain of another human subject who is located at a distance and who is not visually stimulated.

www.clinicaltrials.gov...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

www.bastyr.edu...

Above experiments have duplicated the results of the original Grinberg-Zylberbaum experiment:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

www.uri-geller.com...

Is Werner Von Braun scientific enough to pass your credibility standard?
This site lists many world leaders in scientific research who state that Mr. Geller is able to do things beyond their ability to explain. Is that magic?

What most scientific minds fail to realize is science, in and of itself, serves an identical function to religion. It is the religion of the common day man. It relies upon precepts and reproducability, and ignores things like The Law of Change as well as the possibility of slight paradigm shifts.

Here is some INTERESTING information discovered in the last year; Within our own universe, within our own galaxy there are pockets of space that do not effectively obey our laws of physics. Elaboration: there are pockets of space that may have some of our laws, may have NONE of our laws, and may have NEW laws on top of our own laws, or may have a mixture of all three.

Within our own universe, not some parallel universe. Magick very well could have been affected by a floating point of space in the past with properties such as this overlapping our own pocket of space/time. This is a partial theory based upon recent findings, as I personally believe that Magick (Nowadays) is farce when compared to the knowledge and influence the old Celtic Druids had over such things. I also belief the Druids were also in decline in their knowledge, and that mankind's history goes back far further than most archaeologists and historians are willing to accept... of course, understandably, since there is very little proof to support such a thought.

SECONDLY... if you are a scientist and believe that there is no such thing as God or Magick, then you are ignoring a primary field being developed today; Quantum Mechanics.

Now some of you may argue "Quantum deals in the very small, so it is understandable to have variations on quantum mechanics at such a level."

let's talk a bit of turkey about Quantum Computers, or rather, the premise of how they should work. You take a particle, any given particle has certain properties of spin, there is up, down, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head. The Principal behind how the computer should function is based upon returning appropriate values after giving a problem to work on, currently "yes" and "no" are the appropriate values. Zero and One.

Now, A Quantum Particle SHOULD serve as a microprocessor of simplistic design, and probably won't operate a large amount of numbers. So why even bother when we have computers which can calculate gigaflops per second? Because if Quantum theory is correct, there is an INFINITE number of universes, and the principal behind Quantum computing is giving EVERY instance of a particle a bit of the problem to work on.

So what is 2^Infinite? there is no computer that will be able to compete with a Quantum computer, provided they can get it to work.

These two fields of science MORE than support the idea that there is an elegance to the universe, as well as a strangeness which science as yet cannot come to grips with. Einstein himself stayed distant from Quantum theory because it creeped him out. "Eerie Action at a Distance" is how he described quantum entanglement (Which every particle goes through, not just the tiny particles we study in the lab; particles within US).

Why is this relevant to magick or anything else? You might ask. I sincerely think magick is a system. I doubt any Wiccans would disagree with me on this. However, the magick you scientists are familiar with is child's play... this might offend some Wiccans, but I am certain they know little when compared to some of the ancient cultures which held magick as a study rather than a religion. Likewise, I am certain there are many wiccans (Though far fewer than those that call themselves such) who are very tightlipped about the REALITY of actual magick, and wouldn't do things like Discuss the VEIL or the abstract Unmaker concept I am sure they are familiar with. They also wouldn't likely discuss past eras and wrongs during the times when Magick thrived, as it does involve a great deal of man's sin against others not of his own.

Magick can be easily proven, provided the scientist is willing to deal with the CONSEQUENCES, which most humans are not prepared to do. It is also highly unethical for a Magickal practitioner to do many of the "HARD PROOF" concepts scientists ask for because of repurcussions... tearing the Veil amidst other things.

There are many layers of people which stand against us and tides from foreign realms, or preserve the seperation until the correct time comes. It is not for science to question, as science in and of itself will be in a long moment of terror should it ever happen, since some of their rules considered to be inviolate will be shown the opposite...

Hello, by the by, I am new to this board. The discussion of this subject urged me to register, as I have MUCH to say on it.

--
Necessity is the plea for every Infringement of Human Freedoms - William Pitt

*Note, Quantum physics beyond the standard model, though sensable, are not all coherent, all have serious holes in their basic design, and nearly all of them are based upon very small observations by astronomers.

It is not to be taken as rock solid evidence and also should be remembered that there are literally hundreds of specialized theories about quantum physics, each with some validity, but all with some problem that keeps them from becoming mainstream.

We simply dont know.

*Note, Entanglement is just a suggestion to explain phenomenon discovered when crunching numbers concerning various quantum theories. It doesnt have any direct proof, and should not be blindly assumed to be caused by the factors presented by scientists at this point.

As for the possibility of magic being the result of possible physics violations or other scientific oddities, it might very well be. I do not deny that. Of course, people who can focus odd physics into an area of their choice would be a "Um, just a second." response. Humans have hard enough times bending the laws of physics with high powered equipment, and only bending it for a small group of atoms.

I'd sure like to question someone who can perform those things on a large scale with just his mind, which goes back to the last page, but we dont need to get into that again...

Here, this is a recent find that very much supports the concept that a quantum computer is very possible...

Breakthrough in Quantum Computing.

And also, here's a rudimentary bit as introduction to the uninitiated.

Introduction to Quantum Comptuing

And, as I would not like to misappropriate a quote concerning Quantum Physics, though I believe it was Feynman, someone said something along these lines;

"Anyone who claims to understand Quantum Physics is either mistaken or obviously lying. Even I do not understand Quantum Physics".

In response, you are absolutely correct that Quantum Physics has many theories, all of which cannot be proven. However, there is a loose and general understanding of the functions of how things work in QP, and what bothers hard science Physicists, Mathematicians, and Scientists who rely upon observation and reproducability is that Quantum Physics RELIES upon vagaries which their sciences cannot function without.

Personally I have always found it slightly humorous that "THROUGH OBSERVATION" quantum particles fall to a singular state. This, at the least, has been reproducible, though the state to which they fall is entirely random and unpredictable. It, of course, goes back to the Cat in the Box, both alive and dead, in dual states or EVERY state thereof.

Dismiss Quantum Physics if you will, but the fact of the matter is they are producing results using techniques which are scientifically vague on purpose to get results, and that seems very much like magick to me.

What I am wondering is, with the advent of the first quantum computer (And the continued absence of "Common Scientific Sense" in the methodology), will you still dismiss it?

*Note, Entanglement is just a suggestion to explain phenomenon discovered when crunching numbers concerning various quantum theories. It doesnt have any direct proof, and should not be blindly assumed to be caused by the factors presented by scientists at this point.

I find that, at the very best, humorous. At the worst, ill-informed.

First Evidence of Entanglement of 3 Macroscopic Objects

And

Much Math and Explanation, Yay Wikipedia!


I wish I could recall which article it was I read that provided evidence to support the concept that space, in and of itself, was inconsisten with our own laws of physics. It was fairly recent, within the last few months if I recall, but it may have been in a magazine more than on a website.

Though it occurs to me it may have been in either Discover or Scientific American.

As for the possibility of magic being the result of possible physics violations or other scientific oddities, it might very well be. I do not deny that. Of course, people who can focus odd physics into an area of their choice would be a "Um, just a second." response. Humans have hard enough times bending the laws of physics with high powered equipment, and only bending it for a small group of atoms.

Aaah, but you see, I think it is not as likely that humans themselves are doing it as much as a concerted effort of the true laws of the universe in combination with their will. Consider, it has been time-tested and proven that quantum states are effected by observation, what this means to me is that willpower can effect the physical existence. Through observing a thing, it is brought into our understanding of it (The consentual reality paradigm). What this also means is that, with appropriate understanding, reality itself is mutable and tractable.

Of course, all of this science ignores my own "Beliefs" concerning the decline of magick as a reason for things. I feel it more appropriate to state that Magick is an overlapping field that fluctuates between overlapping and intersection, currently it only intersects portions of our physical realm and thus the effects are limited at our current point in time. I also believe that magick follows a strict set of laws itself, though they are harder to pin down than scientific ones. I also think we are overdue for that plane to physically overlap our own.

This is going to get into a massive debate about quantum thoery in all its mighty, and unnessesarily large self, thus,
I suggest we drop the whole thing before it gets out of hand and return to the pressing issue, which is proving conventional magic is possible and that someone can practice it.

Consider, it has been time-tested and proven that quantum states are effected by observation, what this means to me is that willpower can effect the physical existence

Curious. Why would you label willpower in that fashion? Willpower is simply a psychological term for self motivation, and it doesnt have any external or special effects. For that matter, as I've said a whole bunch of times, how can the brain in its wholeness, be able to influence other objects.

The only way I see that the brain can influence other things is by sending directions to the limbs and other organs, and thus, it doesnt actually have any special properties.

This would rule out alot of the empathy and such, as well as anything concerning physics.

Unless the brain can do these things, which would beg for a biological explanation, the point of arguing about physics is moot since humans cannot directly harness them in any fashion, and thus on demand magic or mental oddities are not possible.

There have been extensive studies conducted concerning "NDE's", which is only one piece of evidence amidst a huge mountain of information... of which I have not sifted through all of it yet.

If you are to make the claim that the brain is incapable of producing external effects on the environment, and completely throwing out studies such as Aural Spectroscopy and other such things, then the conversation is at an end.

Without the acceptance of more associative to science mysterium, you have effectively rendered yourself certain of its nonexistence.

As such, I cannot contribute anything, even evidence, to counterpoint you... as you have discounted anything science doesn't accept as non-evidential of a phenomenon.

Declaritive statements are not scientific. Perhaps you might like to say "Are highly unlikely", as there is a non-zero probability of anything and everything occurring, and if Multi World Theorem is correct, it does.

It seems I am encountering the same amount of mental barriers to new ideas that I encountered with a fast friend of mine concerning similar subjects with people on this board. It is troublesome that people are so certain of how the world operates.

You have voted TheCrystalSword for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Thank you CrystalSword, and welcome. I find that it is rare to come across those who have so much knowledge in both the realms of science, and spirit. I am a big Einstein fan, since he was never afraid to speak positively about faith, which is something I do not see done by most of the worlds scientific elite. I love science, the scientific method, logic, critical thinking, etc. I love to learn. I also love spirit. Even more in fact. Far more. The faith I have in the spirit realm is far more solid than my faith in science. This is due to my contemplation of my life. Science and scientific dogma has disappointed me very many times. There is much that is taught in universities around the globe that I just disagree with on an intellectual level. Some of it seems to me to be relatively easy to disprove, yet it is still taught.
On the other hand, my love of spirit has never let me down. On the contrary, it has continued to awe me with its elegance, its subtlety, and it has also consistently confirmed for me, its existance. I cannot prove magic exists, but I don't really care either. I believe in it, and I can almost say that I do not have a choice anymore as to whether I do or not. Even someone as stubborn as me can get the message if beaten over the head with it for enough decades, and it did take decades. I suspect that my strong faith in science in the past was one factor which delayed my acceptance of the reality of spirit. But my faith is stronger now than ever before. The limitations of science's ability to explain, to progress, to change, and to adapt to the data that is presented, are also clearer to me now than ever.

Thank you for your praise Blackguard. I only feel that people who are certain of their realities have stifled themselves in some way.

I argue in favor of many topics, and at times I switch arguments to favor an argument I would not normally take. I am not being a devil's advocate (for I do not do it to delight in my own flexibilit), but more a socratic who seeks to make others think of their existence.

There is much in the world supportive of phenomena beyond our understanding and perhaps outside of sciences pervue (As it is today).

I also think that there is much that has been forgotten, including the genuine history of mankind. With the way History is written, this isn't too hard to believe that there might be more to the story.

Concerning magick, though... there's no reason it cannot exist and co-exist with scientific understanding. However, the rules governing magick might be as silly as those governing quantum mechanics.

As I understand from other magick-users posts, skepticism tends to lend negative energy and thus spoil an effort.... what this means is disbelief effectively squelches the desired effect. As such, no skeptical scientist will be able to witness any magickal phenomena if this is the way it functions.

This, of course, doesn't mean it doesn't exist or happen. Just like a quantum particle is in multiple states until observed, it could be that skeptical observation causes the default state in the scientists mind and his/her will imposes itself upon the situation.

That is why I brought quantum mechanics up. Conveniently enough, he dismissed the subject of Quantum mechanics as leading to a completely different huge debate.

skepticism tends to lend negative energy and thus spoil an effort.... what this means is disbelief effectively squelches the desired effect. As such, no skeptical scientist will be able to witness any magickal phenomena if this is the way it functions.

You may claim I have shut out the concept of magic and therefore are unable to accept certain possibilities, but the above statement is just silly. It is akin to saying "only those who believe it can see it," which happens to be highly irrational.

Why would something depend on the mood of an observer? Does this produce any tangible or detectable effect on the area? Can you really know if someone believes it or doesnt?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.