Ok, who can prove magic exists?

Ok, please dont use crazy quantum theories in any shape or form to justify your claims, because quite franky, they arent good science in terms of their validity.

Im not looking for fireballs, Im looking for anything that violates the known, and established, not made up to account for astronomical events, laws of physics. Rules like gravity, conversation of energy, thermodynamics, etc.

Any violation, let alone ones caused by human thought, would be quite interesting.

This is now going to broaden into psychics and energy forces, since those would be the proof needed, but those cant violate the laws either.

Originally posted by Raideur
Im not looking for fireballs, Im looking for anything that violates the known, and established, not made up to account for astronomical events, laws of physics. Rules like gravity, conversation of energy, thermodynamics, etc.

Any violation, let alone ones caused by human thought, would be quite interesting.

This is now going to broaden into psychics and energy forces, since those would be the proof needed, but those cant violate the laws either.

Magick does none of that. Looks like you want proof of fireballs, levitation, bending spoons and other crap like that. Magick is not paranormal, supernatural, or anything like that.

If any thing Magick is more like psychology, or psychotherapy, it uses different terms and techniques, but the result is the same. The changes a magick user causes are within him/herself.

"the only thing I can change with Magick is.... myself" - Lon Milo Duquette

well if 2 people have a similiar experience on the same topic without knowing of each other and they are brought together in a discussion forum than that should be enough proof to a person that has not seen the magic that your referring. if those 2 people SAW the magic or FELT it, than they know it exist. i know magic exist now i just need to find another person with similair visions and then i wouldn't feel singled out by the magic, and closure that im not alone at what i feel. this site helps alot in closure of understanding things within my soul.

....I said directly, Im NOT looking for fireballs or lightning or anything spectacular. I want something, ever so minor, that would be conclusive.

I get many different definitions of magic, and this seems to be yours, that it only affects the individual, which is perfectly valid for you.

Lets not joke about the physical world, just because humans long for order to chaos or power over nature, no matter how badly we want it, will justify its existance alone. Perception, at its base, is whatever you want, and I cant argue with that, but here in the physical world, which ...most of us live in, we can agree on the vast majority of laws governing physics. And when people say they can violate them at will, well....
I'd like to see proof of it.

OK I must be lost.

What exactly are you looking for? To me it sounds like you want proof of the supernatural.

Please give me an example of a type of "spell" you want proven. That might make things easier.

Do something that isnt physically possible. Or have something occur of that nature.

Or cause an event that otherwise would not occur.

Something that implies magic directly, and without any other possible cause. This is what I am looking for.

Quote: "Do something that isnt physically possible. Or have something occur of that nature.

Or cause an event that otherwise would not occur.

Something that implies magic directly, and without any other possible cause. This is what I am looking for."


And so Obviously you still don't know what Magick is - that is NOT what Magick is all about!!! Who on this Thread claimed that they were able to do these Manipulations of the Physical World that you are referring to? Something that is Physically Impossible - is just that PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!!! How could we actually do these things? Do you think that this is what we are claiming to do when we claim to have knowledge of "Magick"? Seriously dude!

Raideur - you are being held back by your Pre-Conceived Notion of "Magic"!!
Again I am talking about "MagicK" which is something Serious!!! I am not talking about "Stage Magic" or various Illusions & Parlor Tricks!!!

Then define what, exactly do you mean. And someting beyond explanation but still physically possible are hard to come by.

I think that there are a lot of things going on here.
First, what is magic. It is energy. Simply put. You aren't looking for proof of someone casting a lightning bolt, but I can show it to you. Walk across a shag carpet on a dry day and touch a piece of metal. The electric shock makes a spark visible to the naked eye. That is a "mini" lightning bolt, comprised of all the same things lightning it. And you made it. You created it, you controlled it.

The term magic is an old term. It used to be used to describe the activities in life for which there is no explanation for. Over time, we have found these explanations. What causes the days to get shorter and the nights longer, then to suddenly switch course, and days longer, nights shorter. We know why plants grow, why sex yields babies, why gunpowder goes "boom".

Magic is a perfectly healthy baby being born after nine months time. When so many things can and do go wrong for other people. THAT is magic. Magic is when a child makes it home safe from school every day. Magic is when my parents look into each others eyes after 32 years marraige and say "I love you"

Quote: "Then define what, exactly do you mean".

Raideur - I HAVE ALREADY Defined what I mean by "Magick" about 4 or 5 times already on this Thread! Why don't you actually try Reading the Contents of this Thread?

Let me get this Straight - you have time to try & Provoke people into an Intellectual Pissing Contest - but not to Read this Thread from Beginning to End?

[edit on 17-8-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Since you absoluetly refuse,

MagicK = The Power to Change ones Reality or Perceived Environment using ones own will!

Then you cant change it for anyone else. And thus, since the physical world is based on the laws of physics, you cant prove anything other than that your perception is changed.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
All right.

Who can submit, provide, produce, or otherwise procure any physical evidence of the existence of magic? Anyone?

What about psychokinetic powers? Premonition? Telekinesis?

How about results taken from psychic readings, palm readings, astrology, anything of this nature?

This topic, I believe, belongs in the sci/tech forum because I'm asking for the subjecting of these fallacies to the scientific method. Why is there no proof on record that these things exist?



I doubt I will get much response from this thread, as no one can provide the proof, most likely for some wholely inane reasoning.

Shouldn't you as the begginner of the thread post proove that Magik, or any of the above, does NOT exhist?

Quote: "Then you can't change it for anyone else."

Why would I want to? I personally Practice Magick for my own Benefit! But that doesn't mean that others can't Practice Magick or Harness the Powers of Magick (i.e. the Powers of the Will & the Mind is what it comes down to) towards their own ends/goals - if they so choose. Magick can in-fact also be Practiced as a GROUP!

Quote: "The Physical World is based on the Laws of Physics."

Did I ever Deny or Refute this fact? Quite the Opposite - I stated that Magick is in-fact Quite Compatible with the Laws of Physics & Natural Law!

Just as a Technology which is built using a good understanding of Science is designed to Work WITH-IN the Physical Universe!

So your basically saying it only applies to those who believe? Only those who accept its existance will experience it, and that there is no fixed physical world, but only perception.

How is anyone suppose to prove anything with that view. You could say the world is made of swiss cheese and since its your view, that would make it true for you, even though it isnt in reality.

The physical world, though with few discrepencies, is the same for everyone. Our senses might take in the world slightly differently, but its the same world, and we have gathered that long ago.
Assuming the physicial world, not depending on our perception, is the way it is, how can your magic exist, since it hinges on your perception and has no physical proof outside your perception. Thus, it could simply be "all in your mind."

And if that is true, in terms of the physical world, disregarding your perception or anyone elses, can you prove it exists?

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
All right.

Who can submit, provide, produce, or otherwise procure any physical evidence of the existence of magic? Anyone?

What about psychokinetic powers? Premonition? Telekinesis?

How about results taken from psychic readings, palm readings, astrology, anything of this nature?

This topic, I believe, belongs in the sci/tech forum because I'm asking for the subjecting of these fallacies to the scientific method. Why is there no proof on record that these things exist?



I doubt I will get much response from this thread, as no one can provide the proof, most likely for some wholely inane reasoning.

i can prove telekinosos i can move paper i knwo its not all cool but there is a guy aroudn on the web some where that can move a lot biger things ..
its just your fragel human mind is so outdated by the need for facts and proof of things that magic as died in this world

The human mind is a lump of cells that can move ions to create electrical current.

Is it possible that we have simply moved beyond it, just like religion and supersition? Of course, old habits die hard, since there is nothing new or dynamic about centuries old magic, to which proof still eludes me.

So much of the publics claims to be able to do magic is undoutbly their craving for attention and their subconcious inability to let go of it, because it forms an important pillar of mental security. However, they can never perform it, not once of the over 10 trials I've watched, so either I'm blind to it....which would require some good explanations in itself, or they cannot do it, in which I'd like to find someone who does, if its possible at all.

And Serpentes definition of magic leaves alot to be explained, so I dont have a clear definition either.

Can science be used to study art, or prove that a given piece is "art"?
Science deals in qualitative analysis...

With the paranormal, we're dealing with many unknowns that we simply don't know how to measure yet (in many cases even what to measure).

Prayer (given earlier) is a good example...and a type of magic, whether one wishes to call it as such or not. Can you scientifically measure the effects of prayer? I'm of no particular religious persuasion, but I've seen the effects of prayer, even if only in the people's minds... Still, the effect is there, and regardless of which deity, etc.

I've no doubt that science will eventually uncover some of the greater truths of our reality, but in doing so, historically, it always simply leads to more questions really, than answers....

Quote: "even though it isn't in Reality."

"Reality" is Relative, Impermanent & Ultimately Empty! All Form is capable of being RE-Structured or RE-Formed - hence "Reality" is as Pliable as Plastic! Your "Reality" is Different than my "Reality" - in-fact all of our Individual "Realities" are Different!

Quote: "how can your magic exist, since it hinges on your perception and has no physical proof outside your perception. Thus, it could simply be "all in your mind."

Why do you feel the need to PROVE Everything Raideur! The Mysteriousness of Magick is what makes it so Compelling! Fine - I guess you are right - it is all "in my Mind"!


P.S. I maintain that MY BRAIN is a Lump of Neurons/Atoms/Matter - but that my Mind is More - just as a "Whole & Live Sentient Being" is more than just the sum of its Parts!!! I maintain that this UNIVERSE is in-fact Structured & Ordered! It contains a "Greater Mind" that we are a part of! We are just "Encapsulations" of this "Mega-Mind" - we are a Part of this Collective Consciousness!

Earlier in this Thread you stated that - if you wanted - you could stick your fingers into my Brain (getting around the issue of my Skull). OK - if we are talking about the Physical World. But are we really? Do you know in what point of Space I am in Right Now? No! We are Communicating through the Technological Miracle known as "Cyberspace/Inter-Network/World Wide Web/Matrix"! I would like to see you stick your fingers through your PC Screen & Grab me! You see Technology ITSELF contains this Mysterious Aura of "Magick"!

Doubt when doing magic is a negative energy force against a positive energy force. A part of circle ritual involves entering the circle with the phrase "In perfect love and perfect trust."

When I do healing with people, the one thing I demand is trust. No doubt allowed. Also, the person must work with me with an open mind/self. Doubt creates doors.

I have worked healing magic. It is what I do. I have felt myself pass out before after working with some difficult people. The most recent being an HIV patient. He asked for assistance. His viral count had skyrocketed. He had a second test, and was due to go on medications. We worked together, and before he went on med, he had one more test done. The results were so low, they were even lower than any other test, including the intial diagnosis.

I can identify injuries/aches people have with almost no trouble. Sadly, if I am not alert, I can "take on" those injuries. A friend I was training at work was pregnant, but not telling people yet. *Shudder* I figured it out pretty quick....I was sick to the stomach, had to go to the bathroom, then starving, then bathroom, then tired, then bathroom...Finally I asked her about it. When she confirmed it I was able to block and controll my own impulses, but listen enough to let her go whenever she needed to.

Well well well...we do have someone whos seems to be highly convinced of their powers...

I dont suppose you have idea how they work. I also would wonder if you have any hard facts to support this claim, other than your own word, which, knowing ATS, are somewhat hard to come by. Perhaps accounts from former patients, videos, etc. Im 100% doubt so that might skew things if this is the real deal.

Also, unless otherwise stated, Im going to verbally rivit you for information on this, since you are 100% sure its possible and your technique works, if you mind, simply say so, and we can dismiss you and move on.