Ok, who can prove magic exists?

Quote: "I shot my imagination and buried it in the back yard about 7 years ago..."

I am sorry to hear that - what a Sad & Unfulfilling Life you must have!

Quote: "But seriously, you people claim to be able to perform things that defy known laws of nature."

That is NOT what I am claiming at all!

Quote: "but you don't feel the need to Prove it to me."

How can we ever possibly "Prove" it to you? No matter what we say over this Web Forum known as ATS - you are *DETERMINED* not to Believe - to try & shoot holes through our claims. You consistently challenge us to back up our claims & we constantly RESPOND!

You however are clearly Prejudiced to the very idea of "Magick" - so in that case this is a Useless & Futile Endeavor! Yes, Raideur you are correct - I don't feel the need to "Prove" ANYTHING to you! This Silly Game ends NOW!

Have a Nice Day!

[edit on 4-8-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I'm reminded of a saying I once heard:

"A sufficiently developed technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Think about it. Those who believe in magic have many different means to achieve the same ends, just as in technology, there's often several different means to achieve the same end.

500 years ago, people believed in scrying mirrors. Now we have webcams. Same result - different means.

People once believed that only a practiced mage could harness the forces of electricity (lightning), yet we now run an entire civilization off of it.

In the past, what once was magic, is now achieved, and called technology.

Quote: "A Sufficiently Developed Technology is Indistinguishable from
Magic(k)."

Yes that is True! I guess that you can call it "Practical Magick" as opposed to "Ritual/Ceremonial Magick"!

I see that you have watched the "Techno-Mage" Episode of Babylon 5 as well my friend!

Since Seth has decided not to continue defending these claims, we can move on to someone who can tell me how it is possible and harnessable by people, yet eludes all explanation.

Technology is understanding and harnessing science we do not understand.
Magic seems to be harnessing something that continuously remains outside our view of science, yet possible.

Every field of human research has progressed and filled many of the voids we originally had about the world, in every field, except magic. There is a reason for this too, be it something incredibly supernatural, or deeply psychological.

Thumbs up for your last post Raideur. I can see that you're considering the possibilities rationally. Unlike some creationist people in some threads I've seen in the evolution/creationism forum.

Quote: "we can move on to someone who can tell me how it is possible and harnessable by people."


Yes it Exists & it is Possible & Harnessable by People - I should know! Yet I don't feel the need to Explain to you HOW to Harness it! Perhaps you have to *BELIEVE* in it in order to be able to Harness it & Obviously you don't believe & probably never will - no matter how many times we go over this stuff!


Quote: "yet Eludes all Explanation."


I have Explained it - again Re-Read my Postings on this Thread!


Quote: "Magic seems to be harnessing something that continuously remains outside our view of Science, yet possible."


Yes this Mysteriousness is what makes it so Wonderful!


Quote: "Every field of human research has progressed and filled many of the voids we originally had about the world, in every field, except magic. There is a reason for this too, be it something Incredibly Supernatural, or Deeply Psychological."


Yes I would say that "Magick" leans more on the "Deeply Psychological" side of things - but there is or can be a "SuperNatural" Component as well!

Do you believe that "Science" is the end all - be all way of how we can Explain the Universe? I tried to Explain "Magick" to you - now would you care to
Explain "Quantum Physics" & "String Theory" to me? It sounds like Gibberish to be - but the
"Multiple Dimensions" stuff sounds pretty Fascinating!

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

String theory is gibberish in my opinion. Its alot of speculation because we dont have any hard facts to back up such lofty ideas of how the universe operates.

Explain magic in terms of the physical world and not violating any laws of nature.

If you have to add extra dimensions, psychic powers, or anything else, please tell me how those work without violating the laws either.

If you cant do that, and dont feel the need to show proof to anyone, but still insist you can harness it, what do you have besides your word, which, quite frankly, isnt worth jack. No ones word is worth anything. Reproductable evidence is though

Quote: "Explain magic in terms of the Physical world and not violating any Laws of Nature."

I have *ALREADY DEFINED* "Magick" (as I see it) once on this thread!

Magick doesn't Violate the Laws of Physics or the Laws of Nature! As a matter of fact it is all quite Compatible! What made you think that it did in the first place? BTW I am talking about "MagicK" which is different than "magic" - the way you are spelling it makes it sound like we are talking about "Pulling a Rabbit out of a Hat" & that is NOT what I am talking about at all!

if you proove magic exists it isnt magic!

when magic is provin its called science

I've love to go search through the last 15 pages of this topic, I really would, but perhaps you can just define it in the manner I requested right here for us. Just so theres no errors in judgement.

Magic isnt science because science continually advances and has new frontiers and new questions that come with the new answers.
Magic remains completely unexplanable throughout human history, and that is rather unusual.

Well Raideur - it looks as if you started posting within this Thread without even bothering to actually READ its CONTENT first! BTW it is quite OBVIOUS how Close Minded you are - but you asked me to Re-Define (from my point of view) what "Magick" is =

"Magick is the Art of Causing Change to Occur in Conformity with the Will of its Practitioner."

This Change could be in the Practitioners Environment or in the World. It could be Materially or in the Practitioners Health or even Consciousness!

OK - let the games begin! I know that you are going to try & Shoot Holes in this Definition - Bring it on!

What’s the matter Raideur? No snappy Retort/Response?

" I don't feel the need to "Prove" ANYTHING to you! This Silly Game ends NOW! "

Well, if that is true, then obviously there is no use talking to you....

However, if you have any evidence that would point to this topic being more than just the combined word of a group of people, it would cetainly make this easier for you, since right now, all you have is what you say, and anyone can lie, especially on the internet.

Well, I *THOUGHT* that we were having a general Discussion on the Concept of Magick!

It looks like you are bent on “Dis-Proving” Magick’s Existence - Raideur! Good luck with that. I on the Other hand know that Magick Exists & how it works! Were as you Offer NOTHING & have done NOTHING but to Ridicule other Posters on this Thread – I always Offer Positive feed back to those looking into the Matter! Ask many members on this site – I always give my Knowledge away Freely & help answer questions in any way that I can – that is for those that are actually Interested. I feel no need to “PROVE” anything to people that are bent on a Vendetta against the Concept! That is like trying to “PROVE” - to an Atheist - the Existence of a “Higher Order” (if you will) in the Structure of the Universe!

Right – a Waste of Time! What are you willing to accept as “FACT/PROOF/EVIDENCE”, Raideur?



That being said - I will leave you all with my Final Thoughts on the Subject of Magick (I will be OFF-Line for a while – hence Off of ATS).

If you look at the Substance of my posts on this Thread – I have always said that this stuff is
**VERY SUBJECTIVE**! That is why we are having all of this Controversy & the Vehement Denial of the Existence of Magick or Validity of the Concept of Magick, by people like Raideur & DeltaChaos! There are many different Forms of Magick! It means different things to different people!

In my Personal Opinion – the KEY to the Art of Magick Resides in the Generally Untapped (by most people – for the most part) & UnderEstimated - Powers of the MIND! In order for someone to be a Successful Practitioner of “Magickal Workings”, that person must have Utmost Discipline & Control of both BODY & MIND! This takes Training & Practice before its Mastery – just like a Sport or Game or anything else! The Magick Practitioner must be able to Control/Still/Focus/Concentrate their Mind to a Very High Degree!

There are various Techniques & Meditations that can be employed to achieve this result. Imagine a Mind Developed to the point were it is so Powerful that the Space/Time Continuom has little effect on how it Functions! Once you get to this point you will be able to Develop Various Powers that to others would seem quite “Magickal” & Extra-Ordinary!

[edit on 12-8-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Do you have any evidence besides the word of various people that you or anyone else can perform actions that defy the laws of physics?

If they do not defy the laws of physics, elaborate on how they could be possible.

magic exist, that is the quantum uncertainty

Quote: "Do you have any evidence besides the word of various people that you or anyone else can perform actions that defy the laws of physics?

If they do not defy the laws of physics, elaborate on how they could be possible."



For the LAST TIME - it DOES NOT Violate the LAWS of Physics or NATURAL LAW!

I ALREADY ELABOATED in my previous postings!

Answer MY question - What kind "Evidence" are you willing to accept over an "Inter-Web Forum"!!!!



Raideur you are the Thick Headed sort - I understand! Perhaps you are a Robot.

This is a WASTE of my TIME! I am out of here!!!



[edit on 14-8-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Anyone else care to answer the above question?

Quantum physics are not rock solid science, and although the standard model works well, it doesnt not mention the vast majority of these new theories in quantum physics including superstring, teleportation, and others.

Quantum physics is a great deal of educated guesswork based on a handful of facts of astronomy and particle physics. I dont deny their suggestions and perhaps one is correct, but we do not have the proof required.

Also, if anyone with just their body can perform exotic quantum phenomenons, your doing better than most 10 mile long particle accelerators, and should be tested to prove validity.

Originally posted by Raideur
Anyone else care to answer the above question?

First what is your definition of Magick? if your talking about fireballs and changing someone into a toad, or teleporting vast distances your correct, that's total fantasy.

Not sure if anyones covered this as I have not had chance to read all 16 pages of posts.

Magic only appears to be magic. In reality it is the manipulation of prana, chi or universal life force to bring in to being a desired (or undesirable) effect.

The reason its called magic or miraculous is because science isnt sophisticated enough to prove its existence.

Its like a physicist explaining the theory of ten dimensions and then asking them to prove it (by showing you) or that the soul exists or what is dark matter or how is space so big. Its a relative point of perception (like viewing your surroundings from a lift, moving upwards).

"Magic" can be many things, these range from the easiest (in effort not in choice) the spiritual (which rarley anyone sees) right down to the Material which is the hardest not only to produce but sometimes harder to maintain dependent upon function.

I think its important not to bring "Magic" to the forefront of peoples minds forcedly. I say who cares if most people dont believe in "magic" things exist outside of ourselves that the average human cant explain or comprehend.

Im sure if most the people who have read all the way through this post spent as much effort on themselves internally as they have talking about what ifs, buts and maybes, they might actually start experiencing life rather than living vicariously.


Horus Ra

Exasperated: Backwards is Forwards?

[edit on 15/8/2005 by HorusRa7777]