reply to post by ANOK
Capitalists are private owners of the means of production. They hire labour and pay them wages. The worker has to produce more than they are
paid for, in order for the capitalist to make profit. So yes capitalists do earn from the labour of others, about 40% of their income, 60% comes from
capital gains (money earned from the investment of money earned from labour)
And how did they get that means of production? By working for it sacrificing their time and labor for it to create their product or service. Of course
your numbers are BS but that is not surprising. The workers they hire do not have to work for them they can start their own business if they do not
agree with the wage they are paid. They do not deserve to be compensated at the same rate as the initiator of the successful business who sacrificed
his time labor intellect and capital and created the business and jobs. Successful businesses have never been started any other way even worker owned
Bill Gates could have easily started a worker owned company. But what Bill did is a rarity. Most capitalists property is handed down from their
family. It's a myth that capitalists worked harder than anyone else to get where they are.
Yes he could of but he was free to start any type company he chose and people were free to work for him or not. And his business does have an employee
stock and profit sharing program so in a sense it is employee owned too. What Gates did is not a rarity it is the norm and most capitalist property
was not handed down to family that is the rarity. The backbone of the economy is small businesses they employ 70% of the labor force.
As for the it being a myth that the creator of the business worked harder then then anyone else to get where they are it is obvious you have never
started your own business or even read about someone who did and what it took for them to get it off the ground. Also all labor is not equal do you
think a napkin folder should be compensated the same as an engineer? Who put in more effort to learn their craft? Who do you think should have more
incentive/compensation to learn and perform their craft competently and accurately, and which craft do you think is more important to do
The real myth here is that some magical force will create some fantasy utopian worker owned paradise if you just get rid of all the hard working
people who had the drive ambition and work ethic to create sacrifice and take the risk to start a successful business. Can you show one example of
such a mythical country or business? Even the worker owned businesses were started similarly as I describe.
It's the small minority at the very top that have the power to influence government, and use it's military to expand their capitalist
interests, that is the problem. The oil companies, the pharmaceutical industry etc. It's the system of capitalism that allows a small minority to
economically dominate the rest of us, including small business owners.
No that small minority at the top are not capitalist they are the corporatist/socialist/fascist it is their subversion of the free market through
government monopolized force that has allowed them to dominate others unfairly.
Despite their unfair monopolization you still have the opportunity to create your worker owned business as so many others have out of their homes
garages and kitchens what is stopping you? If you build it (and it is successful) they will come...
However your movement is using those elite at the top gaming the system to try and redefine capitalism and free markets as an evil system that keeps
the people down when history is littered with the death destruction and poverty socialism has caused.
But people only need to work for Bill Gates because of capitalism. They did not volunteer to work for him, jobs are a scarce resource, there is
not much choice. Under socialism they wouldn't have to work for anybody.
People can work for whom ever they want or start their own business. They only need to work for others if they do not have the drive ambition and work
ethic to work for themselves. Of course they volunteered to work for him no one is forcing them the idea they that did not is just ridiculous. Jobs
are not scarce at all there are million of jobs looking for help more then people who want to work. The problem is not business owners who create jobs
the problem is the fiat monetary system inflating the currency and devaluing it so that the jobs available cannot pay enough for the needs of the
workers to be met. Those jobs would not exist without business owners creating them. The elite politically connected banksters at the top that
monopolize the currency through government force are the problem not true free market capitalism.
Under socialism they wouldn't have to work for anybody.
Sorry but this is about one of the most laughable but sad things I have ever read. Its amazing someone actually believes this tripe. So do tell us
just how would the wealth that provides the living for these people be created? And where is the example of this ever working period?
If you say they would all be working for themselves why aren't they doing it now nothing is stopping them? The creator of Sentsy started in her
kitchen so the means of production argument is just a false construct as Sentsy and tens of thousands have proven you wrong as they provide 70% of the
jobs for workers.
So what is your movements excuse for not doing the same with your supposed better model? The bottom line is if what you said were actually true it
would already be happening many of those workers would have created the companies needed to do it. It hasn't happened because not everyone has the
drive ambition and wherewithal to do it and no socialist program can give them what is takes as history has proven. It's not capitalism keeping them
down it's themselves...
I'm saying Bill could not do what he does on his own. If it wasn't for labor he wouldn't be wealthy. The workers do as much to create his
wealth as he did himself. No one deserves to be that much more wealthy than others because they started the company. It's that huge disparity in
wealth that causes most of our social problems.
It's what allows capitalists to economically dominate in politics and society.
If it wasn't for Bill Gates none of that labor would have those jobs. He had the drive ambition vision and took action to create the company and
develop it and expand it to provide those jobs none of those workers had it or they would be running their own companies. He offered them
compensation and they accepted. They sold their labor to him for an agreed upon fee it was not free they did so voluntarily and were free not to do it
no one forced them to sell their labor to him. He was not oppressing anyone when working out of his garage forcing them to work for him or starve your
argument in this regard is just ridiculous.
You must be a Bill Gates fan boy? You probably live with the dream that you might become a Bill Gates?
You have no idea what my personal feelings about Bill Gates are and it is not even germane to the discussion he is simply just a well known example
it doesn't matter either way what ones personal feelings are on him. Statements like this are just a poor attempt at avoiding meaningful discussion
and to try and bias the reader in your favor based on emotional triggers.
The means of production is land, factories, farms, machinery, raw materials, everything used in production. I can't believe you're just
admitting you don't know what that means?
I did not say I do not know what it means only that you did not define what "you" mean when you use it. So once again lets take the Sensty creator;
where were the means of production when she started her company from her kitchen table? If the means of production are being withheld from the people
as you claim how is it she and tens of thousands of others have managed to start and run successful businesses from small to large just like she
is? You do not even realize this fact totally destroys your argument and consigns it to the scrap heap where it belongs...
Capitalism cannot exist without labor.
Most labor cannot exist without an initiator to create a need for labor. Labor and consumers are only exploited when force and or deception is
involved. Gates and millions of businesses across the country only hire labor who sell their labor to them of their own free will. Anyone is free to
start their own business just as millions have if they are not happy with whats available in the job market. Is it tough? Of course it is that is why
many chose to work for others instead of takin the risk and making the sacrifice themselves to build their own business. The lie that capitalism is
holding them down is just an excuse for the lazy to appease their lack of ambition drive vision and non action and try and bring force to bear to
steal from others that which they refuse to put in the time effort and sacrifice for!
edit on 2-12-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)