I'm a Christian, but think the OT God is a false god

reply to post by Deetermined

Among Christians, Jesus has always been called the God of the living.

I know you're not a Christian, but I thought you had heard the term before.

So, who do you think the God of the living is?

That would have to be his Father... Whom he spoke of regularly...

which is not the same "entity" as the OT God...

I know being "Christian" prevents you from exploring other texts outside the bible... But is there any chance you've read The Apocryphon of John?


It gives a good discription of the True God in my humble opinion... And the OT God...

Read the actual link... not my butchered version of it...

reply to post by windword

Personally, I think that they were all "ancient aliens" and not divine by any means. I think El Elyon is a corporation, not a god.

Didn't the books of Enoch tell us that God had assigned each nation with an angel to help guide the kings or rulers? Isn't this where they all led the people of their nations to believe that they were god in their own right, so the people were worshiping them instead? Hence, the "fallen angels".

reply to post by Deetermined


Jesus "died" when he became flesh.
He took up His life again when he returned to Spirit.

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (John 10:17-18)

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Among Christians, Jesus has always been called the God of the living.

I know you're not a Christian, but I thought you had heard the term before.

So, who do you think the God of the living is?

That would have to be his Father... Whom he spoke of regularly...

which is not the same "entity" as the OT God...

I know being "Christian" prevents you from exploring other texts outside the bible... But is there any chance you've read The Apocryphon of John?


It gives a good discription of the True God in my humble opinion... And the OT God...

Read the actual link... not my butchered version of it...

edit on 4-12-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Seriously, Akragon? I'm shocked.

You picked a text that says that Christ created everything, has power and authority over everything, says there is no reincarnation, that souls are punished and if they don't perfect themselves they are damned to eternal punishment?

I never would have expected you to pick this particular text to describe God after reading a lot of your past posts.

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Jesus "died" when he became flesh.
He took up His life again when he returned to Spirit.

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (John 10:17-18)

Are we actually agreeing on something here, Aesir26?

It sounds like it, but I just wanted to make sure.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Among Christians, Jesus has always been called the God of the living.

I know you're not a Christian, but I thought you had heard the term before.

So, who do you think the God of the living is?

That would have to be his Father... Whom he spoke of regularly...

which is not the same "entity" as the OT God...

I know being "Christian" prevents you from exploring other texts outside the bible... But is there any chance you've read The Apocryphon of John?


It gives a good discription of the True God in my humble opinion... And the OT God...

Read the actual link... not my butchered version of it...

edit on 4-12-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Seriously, Akragon? I'm shocked.

You picked a text that says that Christ created everything, has power and authority over everything, says there is no reincarnation, that souls are punished and if they don't perfect themselves they are damned to eternal punishment?

I never would have expected you to pick this particular text to describe God after reading a lot of your past posts.

edit on 4-12-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

What?

It doesn't say anything like that... considering that is a gnostic text and what you just said is purely "Christian" thought... would you mind providing some quotes?

Did you actually read the text?

I think you're confusing this with Revelation...( Apocalypse of John )

reply to post by Akragon

And the word followed the will. For because of the word, Christ the divine Autogenes created everything.

"And the holy Spirit completed the divine Autogenes, his son, together with Barbelo, that he may attend the mighty and invisible, virginal Spirit as the divine Autogenes, the Christ whom he had honored with a mighty voice. He came forth through the forethought. And the invisible, virginal Spirit placed the divine Autogenes of truth over everything. And he subjected to him every authority, and the truth which is in him, that he may know the All which had been called with a name exalted above every name. For that name will be mentioned to those who are worthy of it.

"And from the foreknowledge of the perfect mind, through the revelation of the will of the invisible Spirit and the will of the Autogenes, perfect Man (appeared), the first revelation, and the truth. It is he whom the virginal Spirit called Pigera-Adamas,

I said to him, "Lord, the souls of those who did not do these works (but) on whom the power and Spirit descended, (will they be rejected?" He answered and said to me, "If) the Spirit (descended upon them), they will in any case be saved, and they will change (for the better). For the power will descend on every man, for without it no one can stand. And after they are born, then, when the Spirit of life increases and the power comes and strengthens that soul, no one can lead it astray with works of evil. But those on whom the counterfeit spirit descends are drawn by him and they go astray."

And I said, "Lord, where will the souls of these go when they have come out of their flesh?" And he smiled and said to me, "The soul in which the power will become stronger than the counterfeit spirit, is strong and it flees from evil and, through the intervention of the incorruptible one, it is saved, and it is taken up to the rest of the aeons."

And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."

And I said, "Lord, how can the soul become smaller and return into the nature of its mother or into man?" Then he rejoiced when I asked him this, and he said to me, "Truly, you are blessed, for you have understood! That soul is made to follow another one (fem.), since the Spirit of life is in it. It is saved through him. It is not again cast into another flesh."

And I said, "Lord, these also who did not know, but have turned away, where will their souls go?" Then he said to me, "To that place where the angels of poverty go they will be taken, the place where there is no repentance. And they will be kept for the day on which those who have blasphemed the spirit will be tortured, and they will be punished with eternal punishment."

www.gnosis.org...

reply to post by Deetermined


Hmm... so it does!

My appologies... but i don't argue Christ's divinity... Only that he was NOT God.

Though one must remember this is a metaphyisical story... not meant to be taken litterally... only to give people an idea of what went on in "the beginning" as compared to what Genesis tells us of it...

the reality of which is likely Eons beyond the comprehension of man...

The writer even uses Genesis as a platform later on....

"And a voice came forth from the exalted aeon-heaven: 'The Man exists and the son of Man.' And the chief archon, Yaltabaoth, heard (it) and thought that the voice had come from his mother. And he did not know from where it came. And he taught them, the holy and perfect Mother-Father, the complete foreknowledge, the image of the invisible one who is the Father of the all (and) through whom everything came into being, the first Man. For he revealed his likeness in a human form.

"And the whole aeon of the chief archon trembled, and the foundations of the abyss shook. And of the waters which are above matter, the underside was illuminated by the appearance of his image which had been revealed. And when all the authorities and the chief archon looked, they saw the whole region of the underside which was illuminated. And through the light they saw the form of the image in the water.

"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.' And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form). He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man. And they said, 'Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for us.'

In this particular book it seems that Man was created by Satan... which seems to be in accordance with the gnostic belief that the phyiscal world is actually "evil"...

Also i would say that this book is in no way authoritative... Jesus did not say he created everything within the gospels which are texts from a much closer time to when he lived...

Good catch though

A star for you my friend

that souls are punished and if they don't perfect themselves they are damned to eternal punishment?

Eternal punishment IS the cycle of "rebirth and reincarnation" in gnostic beliefs...

Its not the same as the Christian version which is "hellfire and torment"...

says there is no reincarnation

Late edit...

You meant this passage...

And I said, "Lord, how can the soul become smaller and return into the nature of its mother or into man?" Then he rejoiced when I asked him this, and he said to me, "Truly, you are blessed, for you have understood! That soul is made to follow another one (fem.), since the Spirit of life is in it. It is saved through him. It is not again cast into another flesh."

This doesn't say there is no reincarnation... it means not all are cast into another body..

IF one reads the Apocaypse of Paul... it clearly states there is reincarnation...

www.gnosis.org...

Originally posted by Akragon

Eternal punishment IS the cycle of "rebirth and reincarnation" in gnostic beliefs...

Based on the gnostic text you linked, what exactly is this supposed to mean?

And I said, "Lord, how can the soul become smaller and return into the nature of its mother or into man?" Then he rejoiced when I asked him this, and he said to me, "Truly, you are blessed, for you have understood! That soul is made to follow another one (fem.), since the Spirit of life is in it. It is saved through him. It is not again cast into another flesh."

Edit: You answered it before I asked it again. Thanks. However, I'm still not reading it that way, but I'll take a peak at your text from Paul.

reply to post by Akragon


The Apocaypse of Paul has to be the most poorly written text I've ever read. It made no sense at all to me.

reply to post by Deetermined


Its a fragmented text though...

It gives us insight into gnostic beliefs of the early few Centuries after Christ...

And reincarnation IS one of those beliefs... regardless of how estetically pleasing the text is

reply to post by Akragon


What other gnostic texts that you know of explain it better? Any suggestions?

reply to post by Deetermined



Pistis Sophia explains lots of things in more detail... but its a bloody long book...

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

One of my favorite though i must admit... Though i haven't read it in a long time...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword

 

Personally, I think that they were all "ancient aliens" and not divine by any means. I think El Elyon is a corporation, not a god.

Didn't the books of Enoch tell us that God had assigned each nation with an angel to help guide the kings or rulers? Isn't this where they all led the people of their nations to believe that they were god in their own right, so the people were worshiping them instead? Hence, the "fallen angels".

It's been a long time since I've read the Book of Enoch. But, as I remember, it tells us the assignment and positions of the angels both above and below. It's where the Kabbalah get's it's "Tree of Life" and the Sephiroths.

But I have this, from the Book of Jubilees, Dead Sea Scrolls:

But Noah found grace before the eyes of the Lord.

And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandment to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them, and are (kept) separate.

And against their sons went forth a command from before His face that they should be smitten with the sword, and be removed from under heaven.
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

Fallen angels shouldn't have been a problem after the flood, from what I understand.

Originally posted by Aesir26
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Actually, according to Josephus and other historical sources, the Jews of Egypt were not slaves but were the Hyksos: Semitic foreign rulers of Egypt from Canaan who usurped the kingdom by infiltration from within starting with Joseph's rule as vizier.

It took everything the indigenous Egyptians had to expel the Hebrews in a 30-year defensive war .

Manetho: "they burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of gods...Finally they appointed as King on of their number whose name was Salitus. He had his seat in Memphis levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt and always leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions". (Wki) Remind anyone of the Russian Revolution?

The Hyksos stationed themselves in the city of Avaris. This is where we get the words, "avarice" and "huckster/hooked". Egypt was also called, "Misr", the source of the word "miser" and "misery".

The Hyksos identified with the god, "Set(h)", god of the desert, of the storm, of chaos and death.
Not El Elyon.

edit on 4-12-2012 by Aesir26 because: (no reason given)

Josephus, attempting to establish the great antiquity of the Jews, quotes the history of the Ptolemaic Egyptian writer Manetho, who describes a brutal, savage invasion of Egypt by a people from the east, their period of domination in Egypt, and their subsequent expulsion by the rulers of the 18th dynasty.

Manetho called these Asiatic invaders "Hyksos" and interpreted their name as meaning "king-shepherds" (1:82), although Josephus claims Manetho also had an alternative interpretation, "captive shepherds" (1:83, 91).

Josephus identified the Hyksos as the patriarchal Jews, equating their appearance in Egypt with the *Joseph story in Genesis and their subsequent expulsion with the biblical tale of *Exodus. He made this identification partially following Manetho who made the expelled Hyksos, together with a host of lepers, the founders of Jerusalem, and partially because the Hyksos were "shepherds" and "captives" and, indeed, "sheep-breeding was a hereditary custom of our remotest ancestors" (1:91) and "Joseph told the king of Egypt that he was a captive" (1:92).

Following assumptions of Manetho and Josephus some scholars have attempted to set the Exodus within the chronological framework of the 18th Dynasty, but with little success. There is no warrant either in the Bible or outside it for simply equating the Hyksos with the later Hebrews

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Deetermined

To follow Aesir26's method:

The god of Israel:

Exodus 24: 9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. 10 They saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the skies for clearness. 11 He didn’t lay his hand on the nobles of the children of Israel. They saw God, and ate and drank.

The Hebrew for “saw” in this verse is "raah", which could mean having a mental image, or vision.

This description is also similar to the one in Revelation 4:1-3.

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

reply to post by windword

Perhaps Jesus is the reincarnation of one or all these dead Gods. Or maybe he's there replacement.

Well, considering that the Jews had 70 different names for God....

However other Jewish sources accept that the fact that there are various names of God used in the Hebrew Bible, and that Elohim is a plural word may suggest a polytheistic origin. Thus the ancient Rabbis went to great lengths to try and account for the number of the names of God, by claiming that they account for the various aspects of God.

en.wikipedia.org...

It probably gives a whole new meaning to....

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

I have no idea why I keep misplacing a particular verse, but I know I read somewhere that after Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem is sent down from Heaven, that God and Jesus will sit on the throne together and be known together only as LORD.

I'm going to have to force myself to dig it out.

reply to post by windword

Fallen angels shouldn't have been a problem after the flood, from what I understand.

Neither should the family of Noah, since they were all found to be righteous enough to escape the flood, but we all know after the flood that Noah cursed his son, Ham, and the cycle started all over again.

Wherever there's free will, whether by angel or human, more are bound to fall.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword

 

Perhaps Jesus is the reincarnation of one or all these dead Gods. Or maybe he's there replacement.

Well, considering that the Jews had 70 different names for God....

However other Jewish sources accept that the fact that there are various names of God used in the Hebrew Bible, and that Elohim is a plural word may suggest a polytheistic origin. Thus the ancient Rabbis went to great lengths to try and account for the number of the names of God, by claiming that they account for the various aspects of God.

en.wikipedia.org...

It probably gives a whole new meaning to....

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

I have no idea why I keep misplacing a particular verse, but I know I read somewhere that after Jesus returns and the New Jerusalem is sent down from Heaven, that God and Jesus will sit on the throne together and be known together only as LORD.

I'm going to have to force myself to dig it out.

God's throne is Jesus. Jesus is both his throne and his temple and they both share the throne. Jesus is the Ark of Testimony. We're made in God's Image, as he has Body Spirit and Soul, so to do we, except our spirits and souls are enthroned in a rotting tomb until we die and gain our new thrones/temples at the resurrection.

Revelation 21:1-3

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Jesus is the Ancient of Days. Isaiah saw him on his throne in Isaiah 6.

Isaiah 6:1-10

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!”

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 So I said:

“Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth with it, and said:

“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying:

“Whom shall I send,
And who will go for Us?”

Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

10 “Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”

Which fulfills in John 12:34-41


34 The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

The word "Christ" translates as Anointed One or Holy One. The Holy One is the King of Israel, who is God. This is why jews recite the Shema.

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad: Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One!

Revelation 21:1-2

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:22-23

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Revelation 22:3-5

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.