God is Not a Person

reply to post by godlover25

I didn't speak the words you quoted,

That was God speaking,

Not myself

He doesn't sound a whole lot wiser than yourself. Nice try though. Let's try to keep to the realm of plausibility in this discussion, shall we? I don't waste my time on people who use the word "God" to give validity to their own illogical conclusions.

reply to post by godlover25

I didn't speak the words you quoted,

That was God speaking,

Not myself

Oh, okay.
Well, then, I say this to "God speaking": stop acting like a jerk. Have some compassion and empathy.

reply to post by wildtimes


But, Wildtimes! It's in the job description. Curse a species with imperfection, then blame that imperfection on them and threaten to punish them if they don't bow to you. If that isn't being a jerk, I don't know what is.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I disagree with that. Without the ability
to make mistakes, we can never learn.
Learning requires adjustment, and
there can be no adjustment without
errors.

agreed. But then learn and try to do better, also show repentance if a known wrong/sin is repeated

So if he sees fit to plant
me in the hell without any permission
from me

would anyone give permission to be put in hell?!
If a path is shown to lead to hell, why you choose it? Is that wise?
.
And you want God to be equal to you? Asking you what you want? You have reversed the idea. And if you are not ready to do what God wishes why should God do what you wish?
Why you question what has already happened and you have come far ahead to get uncreated.
.
You wana live,laugh and love, you obviously wana make the most of life. So you use and enjoy the gift without even a thank you and complain that you dint wanted it?
.
You also dont have to obey God because of fear or reward. Its like obeying an expert, acknowledging Him to be an Expert.
And you do have your idea of God, lets hear it because its boring to repeat the same circular arguements.

reply to post by logical7

agreed. But then learn and try to do better, also show repentance if a known wrong/sin is repeated

Why is repentance necessary? Everyone makes mistakes. There's no use beating yourself up over it.

would anyone give permission to be put in hell?!
If a path is shown to lead to hell, why you choose it? Is that wise?

That was a typo. I meant this hell, as in hell on earth. Putting me here, on this planet, without my informed consent. And if I DID give my consent, I regret it.

And you want God to be equal to you? Asking you what you want? You have reversed the idea. And if you are not ready to do what God wishes why should God do what you wish?
Why you question what has already happened and you have come far ahead to get uncreated.

I don't want "God" to be equal to me. I want him to take responsibility for his actions. I want him to answer for all of the pain and suffering he has caused, and I want him to fix his mess. Not when he feels like it, but NOW. There's no point to letting this hell go on if all he wants is perfection.

You wana live,laugh and love, you obviously wana make the most of life. So you use and enjoy the gift without even a thank you and complain that you dint wanted it?

I want to live, laugh, and love. I don't want to spend all of my time beating myself up for being born the way I am and worshipping the being who holds it against me. I want to be proud of being imperfect, because my imperfection will never cease. I would much rather come to peace with being who I am, than be ashamed because "God" tells me I am unworthy. If I am unworthy of him as his creation, then he is unworthy of me as my king.

Assuming, of course, that he exists.

You also dont have to obey God because of fear or reward. Its like obeying an expert, acknowledging Him to be an Expert.
And you do have your idea of God, lets hear it because its boring to repeat the same circular arguements.

I don't believe in a god, so much as a divine principle. It can be envisioned as a spiral corkscrewing in a giant circle, never ending and never beginning. Nothing dies, it just changes. And there's no judgment, only opportunities to grow.

Try Googling deism.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I want him to take responsibility for his actions. I want him to answer for all of the pain and suffering he has caused, and I want him to fix his mess. Not when he feels like it, but NOW. There's no point to letting this hell go on if all he wants is perfection. . . .

. . . Assuming, of course, that he exists.

I don't think it is fair exactly to hold someone else in particular responsible for the state of the universe.
I know that is a popular position even among supposedly Christian people, but I don't think that is right, attributing evil intentions onto someone who is wholly good.
Taking your deist theory into consideration, then "you" were not created but exist in the form that you are in now as a result of their somehow being a material universe which exists, with you in it.
How do you know that you did not create it yourself, and that you are responsible for the condition it is in?

reply to post by jmdewey60

I don't think it is fair exactly to hold someone else in particular responsible for the state of the universe.

Ahem. If I were to build a remote-controlled truck and then allow it to barrel across a six lane highway into a crowded daycare, resulting in dozens of lost lives and a several car pileup, wouldn't you hold me responsible for it?

"God" created this universe. He knows everything about it - past, present, and future. He can control any aspect of it at any time. Every single thing that has ever caused pain and sorrow came from his hand, because he created everything. Isn't that right? He even created the overlord of hell.

So tell me...why shouldn't I hold him responsible for the state of the universe he created?

I know that is a popular position even among supposedly Christian people, but I don't think that is right, attributing evil intentions onto someone who is wholly good.

He invented "Satan", who clearly had the capability to be evil and is now entirely associated with evil. Something that is wholly good does not spawn evil in any form. You are incorrect on this count.

Taking your deist theory into consideration, then "you" were not created but exist in the form that you are in now as a result of their somehow being a material universe which exists, with you in it.
How do you know that you did not create it yourself, and that you are responsible for the condition it is in?

I'm talking about Christianity. We're not discussing deism under a Christian argument, because the two concepts are inapplicable to one another.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

"God" created this universe. He knows everything about it - past, present, and future. He can control any aspect of it at any time. Every single thing that has ever caused pain and sorrow came from his hand, because he created everything. Isn't that right? He even created the overlord of hell.

Says who? Augustine? If you are not Catholic, you can ignore all that as so much Medieval superstition.

I'm talking about Christianity. We're not discussing deism under a Christian argument, because the two concepts are inapplicable to one another.

I'm a Christian and I don't buy into all that, which you think for some reason represents authentic Christianity.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Says who? Augustine? If you are not Catholic, you can ignore all that as so much Medieval superstition.

Says the Bible. So you're saying Catholics are the liars? That's funny, considering the Vatican is lead by a Catholic. Or did you forget that's where all Judaic authority comes from?

Either way, the Bible says so. And we're taking the Bible to be entirely accurate, are we not?

I'm a Christian and I don't buy into all that, which you think for some reason represents authentic Christianity.

This is because Christianity is fractured, which is proof that Christianity isn't even close to being what it's all cracked up to be. You're a Christian but you don't buy into all of that, which essentially means you're choosing what to believe.

Truth doesn't matter anymore, we just choose what we want to believe so we can sleep at night. That attitude makes me want to throw up.

P.S. I notice you dodged the question of holding "God" responsible for the state of this world.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

P.S. I notice you dodged the question of holding "God" responsible for the state of this world.

I'm not "dodging".
My point is that if the other things are not true, then God is not responsible for the the bad things about the state of the universe.
Feel free to quote from the Bible where you think it supports your thesis about how you have to believe all those supposed attributes of God.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I'm not "dodging".
My point is that if the other things are not true, then God is not responsible for the the bad things about the state of the universe.

You asked me that if from a deist perspective we are all "God", why don't I do something? Why don't I fix the world? Why? Because it isn't just me. It's everyone. I could try to live the golden model, make a prime example for every person on earth. But for it to work, they'd have to follow me. Do you think that would work? I don't. Because it's too hard. They would much rather remain asleep. It will take something far more drastic than me to wake them up.

Feel free to quote from the Bible where you think it supports your thesis about how you have to believe all those supposed attributes of God.

Whoever said I was using the Bible? Unlike many Christians around here, I do not use Bible quotes to prove the Bible's veracity. The Bible, for me, is neither here nor there. All it does is show me exactly how flawed and tyrannical this "God" person is. It's a very boring book.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Whoever said I was using the Bible? Unlike many Christians around here, I do not use Bible quotes to prove the Bible's veracity.

If you can't show me where it says in the Bible that I should believe in all those supposed things about God which makes Him responsible, then I don't feel obligated to believe them.

reply to post by jmdewey60

If you can't show me where it says in the Bible that I should believe in all those supposed things about God which makes Him responsible, then I don't feel obligated to believe them.

Do Christians not believe "God" is omniscient? This would mean he knows everything. Literally, everything.

Do Christians not believe that "God" is omnipotent? This would mean he has the power to do anything. Literally, anything.

Do Christians not believe that "God" is omnipresent? This would mean he exists everywhere. Literally, everywhere.

Do Christians not believe that "God" is the beginning and the end, alpha and omega, the source and creator of everything that exists? This would mean that he is the father of all things good and evil, as nothing existed before him. Not even time.

Does this not, therefore, make him responsible for every single moment that occurs in this world? I am being as clear as I can with you. I don't have the specific lines of scripture on hand, but I shouldn't need them. These are the basic beliefs of Christianity. And these are the logical conclusions therein.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Do Christians not believe "God" is omniscient? This would mean he knows everything. Literally, everything.

It may be possible that people calling themselves Christians believe in all sorts of things. I don't know where they get those ideas from exactly. I have a term for it: the Modern Pop-culture Slogan-based Religion Version of Christianity. I don't subscribe to that, I go for the Apostolic New Testament-based Religion Version of Christianity.

Do Christians not believe that "God" is omnipotent? This would mean he has the power to do anything. Literally, anything.

There is a term that comes up in the NT (in some translation versions) twice, Almighty, while quoting the OT, which is a translation from the Greek word, Pantocrator, that was used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word, Shaddai, which means sovereign.

Do Christians not believe that "God" is omnipresent? This would mean he exists everywhere. Literally, everywhere.

Some individuals believing they are "Christian" may think so, but that does not make it true, or make it something Christians must believe in.

Do Christians not believe that "God" is the beginning and the end, alpha and omega, the source and creator of everything that exists? This would mean that he is the father of all things good and evil, as nothing existed before him. Not even time.

Early Christianity believed in the immortality of the soul, so that would mean, according to my logic, that we existed just as long as the other beings we think of as gods did.

Does this not, therefore, make him responsible for every single moment that occurs in this world?

Maybe, if it was possible to demonstrate how any of those conditions necessary were true or at least demonstrably something that should be believed in according to a straightforward interpretation of the Bible, but such is not the case, in my opinion. So in reality you are only criticizing flawed assumption-based theology that is made up or based on Medieval thinking based on profound ignorance, including of how to understand the Bible that they were reading in a not very good translation into Latin.

I am being as clear as I can with you.

I don't doubt that.

I don't have the specific lines of scripture on hand, but I shouldn't need them. These are the basic beliefs of Christianity. And these are the logical conclusions therein.

Feel free to think that people spouting off slogans of what they think about God are wrong. They aren't what I believe because I don't believe things just because someone with no qualifications to know either way thinks so.

reply to post by jmdewey60

It may be possible that people calling themselves Christians believe in all sorts of things. I don't know where they get those ideas from exactly. I have a term for it: the Modern Pop-culture Slogan-based Religion Version of Christianity. I don't subscribe to that, I go for the Apostolic New Testament-based Religion Version of Christianity.

I have a very good friend of mine next to me, an excommunicated Catholic, who is telling me that both the OT and the NT declares "God" to be omniscient. Partnering this with my own experience and research, I am forced to conclude that YOU are not a true Christian. Let me guess, you don't believe Jesus died and rose three days later either.

Some individuals believing they are "Christian" may think so, but that does not make it true, or make it something Christians must believe in.

The Bible states that this is so. If a Christian believes it, then it comes from the Bible. Or at least, that's how it's supposed to work.

Early Christianity believed in the immortality of the soul, so that would mean, according to my logic, that we existed just as long as the other beings we think of as gods did.

Zeus was immortal, but that doesn't mean he existed since the beginning of the titans before him.

Maybe, if it was possible to demonstrate how any of those conditions necessary were true or at least demonstrably something that should be believed in according to a straightforward interpretation of the Bible, but such is not the case, in my opinion. So in reality you are only criticizing flawed assumption-based theology that is made up or based on Medieval thinking based on profound ignorance, including of how to understand the Bible that they were reading in a not very good translation into Latin.

None of what you are saying is even implied in the Bible. In fact, you've gone so far as to suggest that the majority of Christians are false. Most Christians will agree with the basic principles I have outlined. Can you come up with scripture that proves these basic principles wrong?

Feel free to think that people spouting off slogans of what they think about God are wrong. They aren't what I believe because I don't believe things just because someone with no qualifications to know either way thinks so.

Do prove to me that everything I have been taught all my life about "God" is wrong. Then we can discuss this matter further.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

None of what you are saying is even implied in the Bible. In fact, you've gone so far as to suggest that the majority of Christians are false. Most Christians will agree with the basic principles I have outlined. Can you come up with scripture that proves these basic principles wrong?

Feel free to think that people spouting off slogans of what they think about God are wrong. They aren't what I believe because I don't believe things just because someone with no qualifications to know either way thinks so.


Do prove to me that everything I have been taught all my life about "God" is wrong. Then we can discuss this matter further.

I don't think he's trying to argue with you, AfterInfinity. He's pointing out that many people who call themselves "Christians" have very little knowledge of actual history, believe what they are told from the person behind the pulpit, give it a cursory nod, and then go on about their lives without thinking much more about it.

Different definitions on such a fundamental topic makes dialog and debate among Christian groups very difficult. It also makes estimating the number of Christians in the U.S. quite impossible. By some definitions, 75% of Americans are Christians; by other definitions, it is a small fraction of 1%.

www.religioustolerance.org...

There are also many distinct definitions of the term "Christian." Four examples are:

Most liberal Christian denominations, secularists, public opinion pollsters, and this web site define "Christian" very broadly as any person or group who sincerely believes themselves to be Christian. Their definitoin would include, fundamentalist and other evangelical Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox believers, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, United Church members, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, etc. Using this definition, Christians total about 75% of the North American adult population.

However, many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Protestants define "Christian" more narrowly to include only those persons who have been "born again" regardless of their denomination. That is, they have repented of their sin and trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior. About 35% of the North American adult population identify themselves in this way.

Some Protestant Christian denominations, para-church groups, and individuals have assembled their own lists of cardinal Christian doctrines. Many would regard anyone who denies even one of their cardinal doctrines to be a non-Christian. Unfortunately, there is a wide diversity of belief concerning which historical Christian beliefs should be included in the list.

Other denominations regard their own members to be the only true Christians in the world. Some are quite small, numbering only a few thousand followers. One Baptist denomination that is also a homophobic hate group -- the Westboro Baptist Church -- believes that their total membership of slightly under 100 believers will go to Heaven to be with God after they die; they believe that the other 7 billion humans in the world are all destined to go to Hell. 4

I see, my friend, that you are angry at the people who spread the K-Mart version of Christianity. I believe you have established that canned, pre-packaged Bible-based "Christianity" does not make sense. Your point, however, gets lost when you keep insisting that "God" come and fix everything - when you say you don't believe in that "God", and will not bow down to that version of "God."

I think we understand that. You are saying that version is irrational, and that the religions that promote that thinking are repressive and inconsistent. Jmdewey is quite a calm person, with a wide variety of reading and actual study under his belt. He is NOT one of those "Christians" that speak nonsense. I hope you're able to calm down and realize that you've made your point. I'd like to know more about what you think of Deism, and move past what you think about the "omnipresent, personified 'God' guy" that some people accept. We know you disagree with it, and why.

dewey has pointed out that he doesn't fit the parameters of the main-stream Chrisitan mindset; he doesn't even agree with the modern/younger descriptions of the SDAs - his own denomination! - but rather says that even their "public face" is skewed.

He's not trying to tell you anything like "you are going to hell!"....so, let's listen to him, I say - if we really want to make a dent here, we ought to ask him to speak up more and hope that his views - which seem especially benign in terms of "judgment" and superstition - catch on with those who really don't "get it", but spout irrational, judgmental, hypocritical bunk and call it "Christianity."

reply to post by jmdewey60

Feel free to think that people spouting off slogans of what they think about God are wrong. They aren't what I believe because I don't believe things just because someone with no qualifications to know either way thinks so.

Awesome. Thanks for your thoughts, jmd!

I just saw these quotes on the religioustolerance website:

Quotations:

"Any phenomenon as complex and as vital as Christianity is easier to describe historically than to define logically." From Encarta's definition of "Christianity." 1

Just going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car." G.K. Chesterton.

"What is a Christian, anyway? Someone of European descent? A persecutor of Jews? Someone who votes for only the most conservative Republicans? At times all of these answers have seemed plausible. Some use these definitions to this day. In Christian circles the answers are no clearer. A Christian is sometimes said to be someone who has made a decision; sometimes, someone who belongs to a church; far too often, someone who confesses the right creeds." Mark M. Mattison 2

I especially like the second one, for its readily seen point:
Just going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in your garage makes you a car." G.K. Chesterton

In this website's section on Christianity, we have attempted to describe the full diversity of beliefs taught by various wings of Christianity. Unfortunately, this might leave our readers with the impression that there are few core beliefs that most Christian denominations accept in common.

The Cardinal Doctrines of Christianity are those beliefs which most Christian faith groups accept as forming the foundational teachings of Christianity. Many, perhaps most, Christian faith groups feel that all Christians should believe each of these beliefs. Some groups would classify a person as a non-Christian if they rejected even one belief on their own list of Cardinal Doctrines.

The Cardinal Doctrines Shared by Many Christians
(again from religioustolerance.org)
They have some data for us to zero in on where misperceptions of belief systems come from:

Common Protestant beliefs:

There appears to be a general consensus by conservative and some mainline Protestant faith groups that a list of common beliefs might include:

The Trinity,
The deity of Jesus,
The sinless life of Jesus,
Jesus' bodily resurrection,
Jesus' ascension towards Heaven,
The atonement as a result of the life, and particularly the death, of Jesus,
Personal salvation by grace,
The inerrancy of the Bible
The inspiration of the Bible's authors by the Holy Spirit
God's inspiration of the Bible's authors,
The virgin birth, and
The anticipated second coming of Jesus.
But there does not appear to be an agreed upon single list that most Protestant faith groups accept as the most important or "cardinal doctrines."

Now, jmdewey has already said that he does not follow "slogan-based" religion or the Nicene Creed school of theology The above list does represent what I understood to be Protestant Christianity, yet strangely it leaves out whether or not God is omni-everything, sitting on a cloud and laughing at the creation he plays with.

Of the above list, the only one that comes anywhere NEAR what I do believe is the "Personal salvation by grace," and even that is very "iffy", since in my mind "salvation" isn't even an issue. For me, "Personal" means unique and "grace" is the idea that we are all connected to the Creation and part of it.

reply to post by wildtimes


That is certainly very strange, that the nature of "God" isn't included in that list of doctrines. But I know an easy way to answer that. Perhaps Jmdewey should go to church and ask every single person there if they believe "God" to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present. Presumably, they will all answer in mostly the same way, unless their church is so utterly vague as to leave a dozen different impressions scattered around the pews for people to pick up on their way out.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I have a very good friend of mine next to me, an excommunicated Catholic, who is telling me that both the OT and the NT declares "God" to be omniscient. Partnering this with my own experience and research, I am forced to conclude that YOU are not a true Christian. Let me guess, you don't believe Jesus died and rose three days later either.

The OT says the opposite.
Why did The Lord allow Satan to test Job? To see how it would turn out.
Why did The Lord ask Adam where he was?
Why does The Lord have a ladder with angels going up and down between heaven and earth?
So they can see what is going on and go back and report.
Why did The Lord have to walk to Sodom?
To see for Himself that the reports were true.
Catholics don't have the Bible as the ultimate authority but have church appointed experts to come up with what is to be accepted as the truth by the flock. I don't recognize their authority, sorry.

The Bible states that this is so. If a Christian believes it, then it comes from the Bible. Or at least, that's how it's supposed to work.

Then, in that case, there should be verses readily at hand for you to quote. Let me know how that works out.

Zeus was immortal, but that doesn't mean he existed since the beginning of the titans before him.

I don't mean in bodily form necessarily, or as a regular person, but some essence of who they are would exist but not in the normal sense if nothing else existed, such as a physical universe.

In fact, you've gone so far as to suggest that the majority of Christians are false.

Seems like a reasonable assumption to me, and I am not the only one on this forum who thinks so.

Do prove to me that everything I have been taught all my life about "God" is wrong.

It's not my fault you accepted things as fact without any evidence to back it up.