God is Not a Person

reply to post by wildtimes


Because we're afraid of the "us" in other people. We feel darkness creeping around in our souls, and we fear that potential in others. We're in this wonderful vast world, and we're afraid of losing the chance to live before we've even begun.

The joy of life, and the realization of death, kind of instills a panic. The more efficient we become with pain and suffering, the more desperate we are to live the life we envision. And see, that wouldn't make too much of a difference if we didn't have media giving us our vision. Media guides our desires.

And it all comes down to money. Money is necessary to live the life that media tells us we want to live, and then we look around at all the death and destruction and believe that we must do this quickly before we die too, and then we frantically scurry to build the golden empire that media plants in our minds, and before we know it, we've spent our entire lives slaving away to build an empire of gold for someone else, and we're stuck in a bed with lots of money and lots of medical bills to spend it on and nothing but memories of making money to keep us company. All because we truly believed it was necessary for survival. That it was necessary to live the golden dream. Because we're no longer afraid of the world - we're afraid of EACH OTHER.

Yeah. That's the life I've always dreamed of.

reply to post by logical7

The downfall is the self serving nature of human, the ego, the greed and the counter force is the good nature, sense of justice, empathy and intelligence to learn and predict conseqùences of actions.

Again, well-stated, logical7!

Still, there are people whose egos are ENHANCED by doing the less destructive, more altruistic thing.

It's the different tenets of game theory:
a win-win situation, where people pull together to improve things,
or a win-lose situation, where one group benefits at the EXPENSE of another group.

One philosophical book to read about the idea (which also embraces the Intelligent Design theory) is Robert Wright's book by that title:
Nonzero
Check out this link for more of his thoughts on how it all fits together.


What we need to achieve is the Nonzero sum game; BOTH WIN. Helping each other is, in the end, our salvation.

Thanks again for your contributions to this thread.

reply to post by wildtimes


That's not always possible, because different people want different things. One man's treasure is another man's trash, and so one man's victory is another man's loss.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Yep, manipulated into the fear, the greed, the artificial "dream" of "acquisition and wealth" and the suspicion. Is that any way for a society to behave? I don't think so.

The more I ponder these issues, the more I think we should go back to natural, small communities. This morning on NPR they were interviewing an author who spent a while with a no-technology group he calls "Minimites" -
an even stricter enclave than the Amish.

They work TOGETHER, rather than competing. The author got married and took his bride to one of their communities (undisclosed where by their request), and said at first he thought it would be a romantic and noble endeavor. As they got closer to their destination, he began to wonder what in the hell he was getting himself into -
imagined his bride's pretty, ivory hands (an accountant in urban Boston whose entire exposure to "nature was the potted plant in her office") being gnarled and rough, and imagined how hard it would be to dig turnips out of the muck like the peasants in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

To his (and her) surprise, they found it to be not only romantic and satisfying, but to a degree even more profound than he had imagined with the "rose-colored-glasses" view of it.

"Many hands make work light." Going it alone and selfishly doesn't work.

Having said that, I have to go use my two hands and two legs to take care of some household issues; I don't have help, but I sure would enjoy some.

Humanity is on the WRONG PATH entirely.

reply to post by wildtimes


It's a vast web, it really is. Take a spider web, make it a dozen times more intricate, rotate it until it forms a semi-solid sphere, and that's the tangle of lies and manipulation that has taken centuries to form.

Mankind does not learn. It only gets better at being bad. And the whole motivation for it is fear.

reply to post by wildtimes

I was hoping for some suggestions that backup your statement that the Bible is Medieval fiction.

Not the Bible, the creeds, those are all later, and don't necessarily follow the Bible, but just what some people though back then, whoever had the power to put their ideas into the creeds and force everyone to recite them.
Jesuit Garlic isn't an actual SDA, but picked up on some ideas promoted by this South African preacher who is an SDA, but is independent from the church and funded by a private corporation. I'm real suspicious of this person myself and think it is a Zionist operation.

The Roman and Greek Pantheons were outmoded when Christianity became the "Religion of State" - maybe it will take a similar demolition of the Abrahamic pantheon for us to move forward spiritually. For whatever good people find in it, things are definitely not improving, and it's pretty evident things will NOT improve as long as these dusty tomes are held up as "sacred."

I would move the New Testament and Christianity out of the Abrahamic group and leave that to the Jews and Muslims.
Jesus gave no credit to Abraham, and Paul said the promises to Abraham were replaced by better ones through Jesus.
I think the writings of Paul (the authentic ones) were very modern and up to date and hold up well. A good book to read on that is, Cosmology and Self in the Apostle Paul: The Material Spirit.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Interesting. He seems to have deserted anyway; but was certainly enthusiastic about his beliefs at the time he posted.

Can you refer us to a page that represents the current, real SDA; in my searches I've found plenty of sites about them, but some make it look more outlandish than others.

How do you feel about Ellen White?
She seems to me to be about equal to Joseph Smith, the whacko Mormon guy. (Don't mean to sound disrespectful, but these self-styled "prophets" just make me wary).

reply to post by wildtimes

Still, there are people whose egos are
ENHANCED by doing the less
destructive, more altruistic thing.

yes and thats where concious awareness of God helps to check that egos.
Or even watching the creations is humbling, like the pic in your signature.
The thought should be, "how can i be proud of something that i dint put any effort in getting, my body, my brain it was all given as a gift"
the first verse in Quran after "i start in the name of God" is "All Praise is for God, God/Creator of the worlds"
.
I agree with the win-win theory, and i do enjoy good discussion that are logical, tnx for a new book suggestion, i just started, the age of reason.

reply to post by logical7


You are welcome! This thread has proven to be one of the most civilized, intelligent discussions I've seen in this forum since I joined. Relatively flame-free, with people discussing things without being defensive or attacking each other.

I'm so glad you've contributed; Age of Reason is quick reading (part 1 is all I've read so far)....
but I HIGHLY recommend Robert Wright's book Nonzero,

also, his The Evolution of God, perhaps even MORE SO....
I read the latter before the former, although this one ^ is the more recent copyright. They both are awesome in terms of the study of religion and social psychology and social evolution.


Plus, Robert Wright is a very funny guy, his books are entertaining as well as instructive.

reply to post by wildtimes

How do you feel about Ellen White?

She was never the leader of the church, nor did she create the church. She never claimed to be a prophet. She had a vision where it was metaphorical of the church being like travelers on a road to heaven and some falling off and not making it because they got distracted. She thought the vision was about her own group of Adventists, so she became a person of interest to the church leaders, as if it was some sort of evidence that they were right. She often accused the leaders of leading the church astray.
She was originally a Methodist and a lot of those views come out through her writings and I adopted some of those. They differ from straight Luther ideology which I think is wrong on a lot of things.
I kind of stay neutral towards her and will engage in arguments where she can be quoted as an authority.

reply to post by wildtimes

Can you refer us to a page that represents the current, real SDA; in my searches I've found plenty of sites about them, but some make it look more outlandish than others.

No.
I think it has devolved to the point, and something which happens with distinct religions, that you have to be like me, a forth generation Adventist, to really understand it.
I think that the SDA church has been attacked over the years because they traditionally take it as a point of faith not to join the ecumenical movement, which was always thought of as a new world order ploy to destroy true Christianity.

reply to post by logical7


I don't believe in a win-win mentality for Christianity. See, it's like this: either you're cursed into worshiping "God", or you get cursed again. He designed all of us so that we would have no choice but to worship him or go to hell. That's not a win-win, that's coercion. If it was win-win, there would be no hell. You would see the glory in him, and you would naturally align yourself with that. Anyone who chooses otherwise, goes to Satan.

It's much more fun to cast your pawns against a friendly opponent, than to convince your pawns to play for you. No one has to threaten their team, because they are not testing the boundaries. Why would you set the game up so that you either gain a soul or lose a tiny piece of creation?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

I don't believe in a win-win mentality for Christianity. See, it's like this: either you're cursed into worshiping "God", or you get cursed again. He designed all of us so that we would have no choice but to worship him or go to hell. That's not a win-win, that's coercion. If it was win-win, there would be no hell. You would see the glory in him, and you would naturally align yourself with that. Anyone who chooses otherwise, goes to Satan.

It's much more fun to cast your pawns against a friendly opponent, than to convince your pawns to play for you. No one has to threaten their team, because they are not testing the boundaries. Why would you set the game up so that you either gain a soul or lose a tiny piece of creation?

i dont know if you know so i'l just clear it, i am a muslim, but ok, your point also applies to muslim belief.
it is a win-win, but if a person chooses to lose then how can anyone help him/her? its like an open test, with answers to all questions known, now if someone refuses to give the right answers and fails, was it the examiner at fault? or the stubborness of the examinee? examiner had actually created a very win-win possibility.
you should define worship too. God just wants us to do the right thing. now if you say that you know whats right yet dont bend to the only One who deserves it then its a clash of ego.

reply to post by logical7

it is a win-win, but if a person chooses to lose then how can anyone help him/her?

I choose to lose rather than give any domineering overlord the benefit of my soul.

its like an open test, with answers to all questions known, now if someone refuses to give the right answers and fails, was it the examiner at fault?

When the examiner designed the student, wrote the test in Japanese, demands an essay on how much he likes him, then tells him if he doesn't promise to marry him the student will be flunked...yes. That poses a few problems.

you should define worship too. God just wants us to do the right thing. now if you say that you know whats right yet dont bend to the only One who deserves it then its a clash of ego.

If "God" just wants us to do the right thing, why did he invent sin? Why did he create "Satan"? Why did he make hell? He designed us to fail. Who says he deserves it? I don't see much good in him. I see him playing. I see him messing around. I see him getting bored. I see him drifting away, forgetting us.

Assuming, of course, that he's real.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

When the examiner designed the
student, wrote the test in Japanese,
demands an essay on how much he
likes him, then tells him if he doesn't
promise to marry him the student will
be flunked...yes. That poses a few problems.

What??!! You'l have to explain the analogy more.

If "God" just wants us to do the right
thing, why did he invent sin? Why did
he create "Satan"? Why did he make
hell?

to do the right thing there has to be a choice to do wrong too. And a wrong turn changes the destination too, and if all roads lead to Rome, why should i have to choose the path.

He designed us to fail

he designed us to choose.

Who says
he deserves it? I don't see much good
in him. I see him playing. I see him messing around. I see him getting
bored. I see him drifting away,
forgetting us.

who else deserves it? Self worship? Forgetting us? No, thats by design. If you smoke and the cigarette just disappears each time as its not good for you then would you not complain? Now if you question why He let the cigarette be made then refer to the initial part of this post, and keep circling.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I think this cute little video, clearing explains what you're getting at.



"Maybe there's somebody that needs a Grammy"

reply to post by logical7

to do the right thing there has to be a choice to do wrong too. And a wrong turn changes the destination too, and if all roads lead to Rome, why should i have to choose the path.

I agree. But you defeat the point if you prohibit all sin.

he designed us to choose.

Either we worship the being who cursed us, or we get cursed again. Then he feeds us to his pet monster. That's a hell of a choice. I really don't know how else to explain it to you. Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being: He controls everything, he knows how everything will turn out, the universe answers to him, and all knowledge and time are his to see. There is absolutely nothing he cannot do. That's the popular character profile he's been given. So get this: He lays down parameters for salvation, then designs us so that we will want to do exactly the opposite. He sets the magical doors to paradise on a distant mountain peak, and then he sits back and watches as we destroy ourselves and each other trying to reach it, because we seek perfection. He didn't design us to choose - he designed us to struggle against not having a choice.

You create riddles for yourself so that you'll never realize the answers.

who else deserves it? Self worship? Forgetting us? No, thats by design. If you smoke and the cigarette just disappears each time as its not good for you then would you not complain? Now if you question why He let the cigarette be made then refer to the initial part of this post, and keep circling.

You speak as though your "God" is completely separate from you. How many times did Jesus say that "God" is inside of you? When you revere the divinity inside of you, you are acknowledging the bond between you and the rest of the universe, appreciating everything from which you have come and to which you will return. You will love everything that is a part of the divine being, because it is a part of you and you love yourself. And you love them because you couldn't imagine doing otherwise, there's just so much love and positivity. And you see the evidence of your deity in the things around you, all the things that you love, you realize you have them because of this creator. And that's when you worship yourself and the creator together, because just as you are thankful to the creator for such blessings, the creator is thankful to you for providing the joy of joining with its creation in a co-creation. Building the future with your children is probably one of the most rewarding sensations in the existence of humanity. As they say, it takes two to tango.

Even as you are thankful to the creator, you must also be thankful to yourself. And there is a place, deep inside, where the two join as one. That is what you are revering - the perfection of imperfection. Man and god. The joy of eternal motion. The nature of the universe. And that, my friend, is why ancient cultures would often worship themselves. You cannot intelligently worship divine perfection until you've understood mortal perfection. And very few have. Mortal perfection teaches us the how and why of divine perfection. You would say this comes from the "Holy Spirit". I say perhaps, but not in the way you mean it. The creator must connect to you, yes? How can this creator connect with you if there is nothing to be connected to? That little piece of "God" inside of you, that speaks to you, that guides you by gently tugging on your heart. That is what they worshipped.

I don't think you understand the point of self-worship at all.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

But you defeat the point if you
prohibit all sin

the knowledge of right and wrong shouldnt be given? Sin wasnt made to do, it was made to be avoided.

He didn't
design us to choose - he designed us
to struggle against not having a
choice.

exactly! Just let me put it as, He designed us to not struggle to remain detached from Him but He gave us one choice, to submit or not.
The struggle creates chaos and violence, the submitting creates harmony and peace.
Imagine if nature had that choice, if trees dint grow towards the sun and if the sun rised when it wished(earth rotates how it wishes) if cows turned carnivorous!!?
We on the other hand do things like that when we refuse to submit and struggle a fruitless struggle. It sure makes you scream "THATS NOT FAIR!!"
and there comes the point of self worship. I understand what you said in the previous post, i actually enjoyed reading it. But can we name self worship as self knowledge? Because self worship can also be selfishness. And we do have a bit of God in us, do you think the goodness in you is yours, what you exactly did to be good? The Maker takes credit for the made, give the credit or not, the Maker is Maker and the made is just made.

reply to post by logical7

the knowledge of right and wrong shouldnt be given? Sin wasnt made to do, it was made to be avoided.

I disagree with that. Without the ability to make mistakes, we can never learn. Learning requires adjustment, and there can be no adjustment without errors.

exactly! Just let me put it as, He designed us to not struggle to remain detached from Him but He gave us one choice, to submit or not.

You just said exactly what I said. That's exactly the choice he gave us - either worship the being who cursed you until he lifts your curse, or get cursed again for all of eternity. Seeing as how I didn't choose to be born, I didn't sign an agreement saying that I wanted to live in this world under "God"s rules. So if he sees fit to plant me in the hell without any permission from me, then he can deal with every ounce of attitude that comes with me.

A choice? Pfft. Coercion. That's all it is. If he were truly so benevolent and loving, he wouldn't need to threaten us. He wouldn't need hell or "Satan", because he could come right out in the open and absolutely everyone would be perfectly happy for the rest of his existence. But this "God" needs to threaten us and prepare instruments of eternal torture for those who dare oppose him, and promises lots of treats for those who grovel before him. I have read a lot of stories, and every single creature that could be described that way was ruled by fear. Your "God" is a fearful god.

Just like any other bully.

reply to post by wildtimes


I didn't speak the words you quoted,

That was God speaking,

Not myself