Masonic Perspectives Wanted: Meritocracy

Originally posted by KSigMason
Wealth redistribution via higher percentage Death Tax is a stupid and foolish idea, but that's just me.

Which is my point.

If I found out that everything I accumulated would be taken upon my death without any direction from me I would spend it all on crap that they could not seize before allowing the government to take a nickel. This would defeat the purpose of trying to confiscate assest in some sort of bizarre wealth redistribution scheme. People would circumvent the parameters and there would end up being less then if they just left everyone alone.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by KSigMason
Wealth redistribution via higher percentage Death Tax is a stupid and foolish idea, but that's just me.

Which is my point.

If I found out that everything I accumulated would be taken upon my death without any direction from me I would spend it all on crap that they could not seize before allowing the government to take a nickel. This would defeat the purpose of trying to confiscate assest in some sort of bizarre wealth redistribution scheme. People would circumvent the parameters and there would end up being less then if they just left everyone alone.

Seems as if the masons have a long way to go before they make you into a better person.

We come into this world with nothing, we leave this world with no material possessions.

Originally posted by OratoryHeist

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by KSigMason
Wealth redistribution via higher percentage Death Tax is a stupid and foolish idea, but that's just me.

Which is my point.

If I found out that everything I accumulated would be taken upon my death without any direction from me I would spend it all on crap that they could not seize before allowing the government to take a nickel. This would defeat the purpose of trying to confiscate assest in some sort of bizarre wealth redistribution scheme. People would circumvent the parameters and there would end up being less then if they just left everyone alone.

Seems as if the masons have a long way to go before they make you into a better person.

We come into this world with nothing, we leave this world with no material possessions.

Well then, since December 21, 2012 is coming very soon, how about you send me 90% of what you have so you can be sure to go out with close to nothing. I'll send you the account number to deposit into. k?

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
We come into this world with nothing, we leave this world with no material possessions.

I am well aware of the, 'you can't take it with you adage'. However mine is modified with, 'and the government won't take it from me'.

I will not work my entire adult life to fund other people's vision of utopia. If I accumulate assets it is up to me to disburse them as I see fit upon my death. Not you, not the government, not anyone. This has nothing to do with Masonry and everything to do with principal.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by OratoryHeist

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by KSigMason
Wealth redistribution via higher percentage Death Tax is a stupid and foolish idea, but that's just me.

Which is my point.

If I found out that everything I accumulated would be taken upon my death without any direction from me I would spend it all on crap that they could not seize before allowing the government to take a nickel. This would defeat the purpose of trying to confiscate assest in some sort of bizarre wealth redistribution scheme. People would circumvent the parameters and there would end up being less then if they just left everyone alone.

Seems as if the masons have a long way to go before they make you into a better person.

We come into this world with nothing, we leave this world with no material possessions.

Well then, since December 21, 2012 is coming very soon, how about you send me 90% of what you have so you can be sure to go out with close to nothing. I'll send you the account number to deposit into. k?

Sure, go for it. it's going to be a long wait for you though, seeing as I'll still be alive after December 21, 2012.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
We come into this world with nothing, we leave this world with no material possessions.

I am well aware of the, 'you can't take it with you adage'. However mine is modified with, 'and the government won't take it from me'.

I will not work my entire adult life to fund other people's vision of utopia. If I accumulate assets it is up to me to disburse them as I see fit upon my death. Not you, not the government, not anyone. This has nothing to do with Masonry and everything to do with principal.

But you are thinking with a narrow mind. The 'scheme' would apply to EVERYONE. Therefore everyone's assets would get an even distibution (in theory), so it would be irrelevent you deciding.

It's a scheme to make people LESS materialistic, which is a good thing.

What a world it would be if all the scientists, thinkers, doctors, nurses etc etc turned around and said 'you know what, all the knowledge I have in my head is mine, and I will decide who I help.'

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
But you are thinking with a narrow mind. The 'scheme' would apply to EVERYONE. Therefore everyone's assets would get an even distibution (in theory), so it would be irrelevent you deciding.

It's a scheme to make people LESS materialistic, which is a good thing.

What a world it would be if all the scientists, thinkers, doctors, nurses etc etc turned around and said 'you know what, all the knowledge I have in my head is mine, and I will decide who I help.'

But that's a utopian pipe dream. What are you, 20? You probably think Ayn Rand and Lyndon LaRouche had good ideas… Such a "scheme" could never happen in the real world.

reply to post by OratoryHeist


spoken like a true communist. Here in the real world, things don't work like that.
Your math is great until your factor in greed. Once that happens, all bets are off.
You work hard, save up some money and hopefully spend it all just before you die. Problem is, if you spend it all and you are still living, you messed up. So you have to be a little conservative or you will end up being someone else's pain in the ass. Don't be that guy.

reply to post by OratoryHeist

Why do we have a long way to go? How is wanting freedom from government intrusion counter to our teachings of betterment?

reply to post by OratoryHeist

There is a flaw in the communal belief since not everyone is created exactly. We all different skills and abilities, and because for such things, we each will accumulate different amounts of property (whether land, material, monetary, etc.). Your and the OPs theory would stifle creativity and innovation because no one will have an incentive to do well.

I try to excel to make a better life, not necessarily for me, but for my family. If my property is going to be stolen from my family why would I continue to gather wealth (in whatever form) if my family will not prosper from it?

Your theory only breeds dependency upon the government because it surrounds the government dispensing the stolen wealth. Government is filled incompetency, corruption, and this theory, history proves, would do no good. This wealth redistribution would be plagued with failures and fraud.

[QUOTE]The 'scheme' would apply to EVERYONE.[/QUOTE]
Universal economic oppression is still oppression.

reply to post by JoshNorton

It is a very naive belief isn't it?

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
But you are thinking with a narrow mind. The 'scheme' would apply to EVERYONE. Therefore everyone's assets would get an even distibution (in theory), so it would be irrelevent you deciding.

Which inspires nothing but mediocrity at best. Why should I work harder then anyone else when everything I make may go to people who have less drive and ambition then me? This philosophy benefits the people who sit on their ass.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
But that's a utopian pipe dream. What are you, 20?

All nations began with some type of 'pipe dream'. Even good ol' Amerika was supposed to be a new Atlantis. Your point being what? We should not dream? We should not try to improve?

You probably think Ayn Rand and Lyndon LaRouche had good ideas… Such a "scheme" could never happen in the real world.

I've not read the works of Rand or LaRouche, if you'd like to summize their ideas then I'll give you my opinion.

Impressively defeatist attitude there JoshNorton, saying something could never happen when it hasnt been tried. Ofcourse the greedy and selfish will object to it, those who believe they have the most to lose will object to it.

The removal of inheritance is inevitible. I have yet to see a single child turn out for the better because his daddy was rich.

Even more than that a startrek style economic system is the only possible future. where we survive.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

spoken like a true communist.

Name calling already. Be the better man Network Dude.

Here in the real world, things don't work like that.
Your math is great until your factor in greed. Once that happens, all bets are off.

Why do we have greed? Because the system is imbalanced. The current system encourages selfishness, greed, hoarding. We are not encouraged to share. We are encouraged to desire the material.

You work hard, save up some money and hopefully spend it all just before you die. Problem is, if you spend it all and you are still living, you messed up. So you have to be a little conservative or you will end up being someone else's pain in the ass. Don't be that guy.

So don't go spending it all. As I've said, the current system encourages selfishness and greed, traits you are exhibiting with your comments.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

Why do we have a long way to go? How is wanting freedom from government intrusion counter to our teachings of betterment?

Read through what your brethren have been saying and you will see the same thing, me, mine, self, greed, etc etc etc. Is that being a better person? We're all on this planet together, we should be working together, sharing together. Everyone living like kings and queens, no matter what their background. Everyone should be given an equal chance.

reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

There is a flaw in the communal belief since not everyone is created exactly. We all different skills and abilities, and because for such things, we each will accumulate different amounts of property (whether land, material, monetary, etc.).

Yes we all have different abilities, but so what. Why do you need to accumulate property? Why do you need more than other people? In the end, we die, we realise we worked ourselves into the ground for what? For a mound of stuff we cannot take with us.

Your and the OPs theory would stifle creativity and innovation because no one will have an incentive to do well.

Wrong. The current system stifles creativity. The current system is only about amassing material wealth, finding new ways of making more money. Take a look at the world, where is the creativity? Creativity?

I try to excel to make a better life, not necessarily for me, but for my family. If my property is going to be stolen from my family why would I continue to gather wealth (in whatever form) if my family will not prosper from it?

Shouldn't your family be doing the same thing that you are, making a better life? If you are willing to provide for your family, then why are you unwilling to provide for your 'bigger family'? We are all on this orb together, we should be sharing it all. We should be combining our various different abilities for the betterment of society as a whole. Not hoarding, being selfish and greedy, just so that a limited few have the opportunity for a better life.

Your theory only breeds dependency upon the government because it surrounds the government dispensing the stolen wealth. Government is filled incompetency, corruption, and this theory, history proves, would do no good. This wealth redistribution would be plagued with failures and fraud.

Every walk of life is filled with incompetency, corruption, etc, due to the imbalanced system we have in place. Failures and Fraud? Hello? Anyone home? Look at the world around you.

reply to post by JoshNorton

 

It is a very naive belief isn't it?

You are a superior mind are you? Judging by the comments you have all made, I see a bunch of selfish, greedy individuals, who are blinded by the material world. The lack of thought, compassion and understanding towards your fellow man is astounding.

Bad showing guys.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
But you are thinking with a narrow mind. The 'scheme' would apply to EVERYONE. Therefore everyone's assets would get an even distibution (in theory), so it would be irrelevent you deciding.

Which inspires nothing but mediocrity at best. Why should I work harder then anyone else when everything I make may go to people who have less drive and ambition then me? This philosophy benefits the people who sit on their ass.

So basically what you are saying is that you are fueled by jealousy of other people. Running yourself into the ground just to be momentarily better than your neighbor.

Assuming you do, why do you work harder than anyone else? If you had no money worries for the rest of your life, what would you do with your life? Amass more? Learn more?

I think you'll find that if you take an objective view of the world around you, you will realise that we are living in sub-mediocrity, when we could be realising so much more.

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
So basically what you are saying is that you are fueled by jealousy of other people. Running yourself into the ground just to be momentarily better than your neighbor.

That is an idioctic assumption. I do what I do for myself and my family. My parents came here with almost nothing. I have more than them. My children, God willing, will have more than me. And so on.

Assuming you do, why do you work harder than anyone else?

Self satisfcation.

If you had no money worries for the rest of your life, what would you do with your life? Amass more? Learn more?

I would probably become more active with Masonry and some of the charities we support. I would also like to do some traveling and maybe get some additional education that is presently not a requirment for my occupation.

I think you'll find that if you take an objective view of the world around you, you will realise that we are living in sub-mediocrity, when we could be realising so much more.

Speak for yourself. I am very far from living a medicore life. Do you know why? Because I worked hard not to.

I can't not read these threads, they're very dimensional.
nice job

Originally posted by OratoryHeist

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by OratoryHeist

 

spoken like a true communist.

Name calling already. Be the better man Network Dude.

Not at all. I was only pointing out the fact that what you describe is a communist society. In a perfect world, it's the perfect government. Unfortunatley, we don't live in a perfect world. Please don't take offence, none was meant.

Here in the real world, things don't work like that.
Your math is great until your factor in greed. Once that happens, all bets are off.

Why do we have greed? Because the system is imbalanced. The current system encourages selfishness, greed, hoarding. We are not encouraged to share. We are encouraged to desire the material.

Greed is an inherent trait in all of us. It's the key factor that makes the Utopian society unobtainable. It's what drives our capitalist society. If you call it something else, it doesn't sound so dirty, but in the end, it is exactly what it is.

You work hard, save up some money and hopefully spend it all just before you die. Problem is, if you spend it all and you are still living, you messed up. So you have to be a little conservative or you will end up being someone else's pain in the ass. Don't be that guy.

So don't go spending it all. As I've said, the current system encourages selfishness and greed, traits you are exhibiting with your comments.

I am human, and I am living in the USA. Yes, I have the same faults as all of us. Sure I want to help others, but I also want to help my family. I want my kids to be able to have the same chances at success that I have had. I want to not worry about how my wife will live, should something happen to me.

In a sense we are all guilty, there is no way around it. While I am not sounding like the poster child for selflessly helping others, I am being honest. After I know my family is OK, I start to focus on what I can do for others, but I have to be sure my house is OK first.

reply to post by Wertdagf

It shouldn't be up to anyone, but the property owner what is done with their property. If they legally own it then they have the right to transfer it to who they see fit.

reply to post by OratoryHeist

Respecting the property and rights of others and not intruding thereon? Yes, that is being a better person.

Like I said, communal living and wealth redistribution idea is foolish dream and will never work. It stifles innovation, creativity, and will cause nothing, but stagnation economically, technologically, and educationally.

...we realise we worked ourselves into the ground for what? For a mound of stuff we cannot take with us.

To make a better life my family. No one is saying we're taking our fortune with us.

Wrong. The current system stifles creativity. The current system is only about amassing material wealth, finding new ways of making more money. Take a look at the world, where is the creativity? Creativity?

Well, when you grow up, you'll see how capitalism or a free market has greatly affected the advances of technology across many different sciences and practices. The free market forces one, who is providing a product (whatever it may be), to be more efficient, effective, and equitable than the competition. This breeds one to be creative and innovative. To reach this excellence an employer seeks to hire those will best perform.

Shouldn't your family be doing the same thing that you are, making a better life?

Well, they emplaced these child labor laws so my 5-year old nephew who is my primary beneficiary cannot work at the same level I do.

If you are willing to provide for your family, then why are you unwilling to provide for your 'bigger family'?

I do donate money when I can afford it.

We are all on this orb together, we should be sharing it all.

You should be entitled to what you earn. If you're just going to sit on your ass never doing a thing why should I bust mine just to have my property stolen? That's stupid.

Should I not be rewarded for applying my skills? Should I not have a choice who gets my possessions when I pass? If not, what stops me from passing things down while I'm still alive?

You are a superior mind are you? Judging by the comments you have all made, I see a bunch of selfish, greedy individuals, who are blinded by the material world. The lack of thought, compassion and understanding towards your fellow man is astounding.

Call me greedy, but ask people around me, I'm fairly generous. A friend of mine just got his dream job and he's decided to pay me back for everything I've loaned him even though I never asked for a cent.

Answer me this:

If I capable of creating a product twice as fast as you are, should I not be paid more for providing a better service?

If you agree I should be paid more disregard this question. If you disagree that I should be paid more, what is my incentive to continue excelling if I'm paid the same as someone who is only doing half the work?

If you agree I should be paid more, then should I not be allowed to do whatever I wish with that money? Let's say I decide to rebuild a 1949 Packard Convertible Coupé and other classic cars. Let's say I amass several of these cars. Let's say I also collect antique guns ranging from the Korean War to the Revolutionary War.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to say these all go to my heir free from government intrusion? Didn't I pay taxes on all of it already? Why should the government be allowed to take multiple (and disproportional) bites of my apple?

Honestly when the day that such intrusive methods come about against my freedom and right of property, on my death bed, I'm going to withdraw every cent, put it in my house with all of my possessions and burn it to the ground. That or I will just give my possessions away before I die.

Originally posted by OratoryHeist
Assuming you do, why do you work harder than anyone else? If you had no money worries for the rest of your life, what would you do with your life? Amass more? Learn more?

Donate to several charities (Masonic and non-Masonic), set-up a trust fund for my nephew, build a proper Masonic center in Boise (as ours is getting old), and I'd probably travel around the world.