Originally posted by Esoterica

Provide numbers for this statement, please.

Umm, I don't mean to question your intelligence but this is not something you can simply take a poll on.

Originally posted by iceofspades
Is it just me or do Christians generally have an extreme lack of individuality and ability to think for themselves? Has the bible become your brain? Do you enjoy going to church because of the sermons?

That ticks me off. I'm a christian, and I can tell you something about myself that most cannot say about themselves. I'm a leader. And nothing makes me more proud than to stand alone in a crowd and shout no when everyone else is chanting yes.
What does bible have to do with me and my thinking? Well, it gives me the foundation for my moral and value system. Some times when my head and my heart are in different places - I can take the easy way out and just get to the point by asking "what does the bible say?"

And, as the person I discribed above, I can honestly tell you this as well. I really don't care what you think about it, nor do I plan to defend myself to you or anyone else.

I'm white too. Not ashamed of that either.
I'm female - not ashamed.
I'm a horrible speller...ok, a little bugged by this - but not ashamed. I'm great in alot of other areas.

(Hm. The tone of this seems a bit catty. I have no anger etc, just wanted my point to be read as strongly as it is felt.)

It sounds like she has gotten involved in a cult/semicult version of the church. A true Christian reads and studies the Bible, specifically the model of Christ and the church in the New Testament times. God has given us 'free will' which is a variant and gives rise to free thinking. In other words, you have the right, whether your decision is right or wrong, to do and believe whatever you wish.

Any church or teaching that seeks to quell your free thought is not operating within the framework of the design as originated by the God they are attempting to exemplify. The church I attend has a minister who preaches sermons on what he thinks is God's will, and what he thinks God has to say, through him, to the congregation on that particular occasion. However, he encourages note taking and careful notation of Scripture references and key statements, so his parishioners can check the Bible and see if, after study, they agree or not. He welcomes disagreement insomuchas he welcomes discussion on various topics regarding different points of view.

This is the way in which the early Church operated, and it is sad that in today's world, we have forgotten our roots as a religion (Christianity), and as a society in general.

Originally posted by iceofspades
Umm, I don't mean to question your intelligence but this is not something you can simply take a poll on.

Yes it is. If you can take a poll on ketchup preference, you can certainly take a poll on religious belief. Now, such a poll may not have been conducted, but you could very well do it.

All I'm asking is for a factual source that supports your statement.

Originally posted by Esoterica

Originally posted by iceofspades
Umm, I don't mean to question your intelligence but this is not something you can simply take a poll on.

Yes it is. If you can take a poll on ketchup preference, you can certainly take a poll on religious belief. Now, such a poll may not have been conducted, but you could very well do it.

Again I must challenge your statement. This issue is not as simple as religious belief or...ketchup preference. Please think about your posts before you post them.

Originally posted by iceofspades
Is it just me or do Christians generally have an extreme lack of individuality and ability to think for themselves? Has the bible become your brain? Do you enjoy going to church because of the sermons?

The reason I'm asking this question is because I believe Christianity (many other religions as well) seem to take the place of individual thought. Reply below if you agree or disagree...

Have you actually read the Bible? There may be some people who are such, but I've met Christians who are some of the smartest people I know. Are you attacking specific people, or are you attacking the Bible as a whole? Then, see question 1.

Originally posted by iceofspades
Again I must challenge your statement. This issue is not as simple as religious belief or...ketchup preference. Please think about your posts before you post them.

I asked a simple question: What factual backup do you have to support your claim, or is it simply a 'belief'? If it is impossible to attain factual information, please explain why and how it is impossible. Then explain why, in the lack of such factual evidence, you believe as you do.

There is nothing wrong with an opinion, as long as you aren't ashamed to admit it is only an opinion.

The problem from the way I see it, is that most Christians do not study for themselves.. They sit and listen to the opinion of a minister/preacher/priest and nod in agreement. They read the bible....but they do not "study". They don't research other book left out of the bile put together by man, they don't research the numerous words that have been mistranslated.....they just follow what is taught In this way, many Christians are indeed, "yes" people that are not opening their minds to learn and think for themselves

Originally posted by Esoterica

Originally posted by iceofspades
Again I must challenge your statement. This issue is not as simple as religious belief or...ketchup preference. Please think about your posts before you post them.

I asked a simple question: What factual backup do you have to support your claim, or is it simply a 'belief'? If it is impossible to attain factual information, please explain why and how it is impossible. Then explain why, in the lack of such factual evidence, you believe as you do.

There is nothing wrong with an opinion, as long as you aren't ashamed to admit it is only an opinion.

Nor do I have a problem admitting this is an opinion which it is. If you wanted me to tell you if this was opinion or not you could have just asked me.

Originally posted by LadyV
The problem from the way I see it, is that most Christians do not study for themselves.. They sit and listen to the opinion of a minister/preacher/priest and nod in agreement. They read the bible....but they do not "study".

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, unfortunately it is true, far too many do not study.
I would like to point out that Christianity as a topic gets far stricter guidlines and more scrutiny. How many other topics would someone make a statement like this about?

Originally posted by iceofspades
Let me take an opportunity to rephrase my statement. Churches tend to take the place of personal decision-making even if it is not in the right. For example, my sister joined a church some time ago which was more like a cult. The leader (whom I have had countless verbal arguments with), taught his followers that their blood families mean nothing to god and that the church is their new family. He also told her that medicine is evil and she should not take anymore. In turn, she stopped talking to our family and has some serious problems medically.

I understand that this situation does not represent all, but it does indeed represent a large many Christians.

I totally understand what youre saying!

There is a saying- Religion stops a thinking mind.

This is very true. When you are taught that you have the only religion and opinion worthy of gods true love and reward of heaven, it make is hard to see the other side of the story. Fairy tales are easier to swallow than truth.

I believe Jesus to have been a revolutionary and a threat to the status Quo.just as he would be today.


"Love God!!and Love each other !!!"
Jesus wouldnt be hanging out in mega million dollar churches or drive a BMW with a WWJD sticker on it.he has been manipulated into an industry that feeds on peoples natural tendency to herd together.if jesus came back today like he did 2000 years ago,as the lamb.then his influence would have to be stopped just like they stopped it the first time.we had our chance at a perfect world,and we hung it on a cross and watched it die.Thankfully,i see his message DESPITE all the crap both sides of the christian issue spew out.i wish people could think for themselves and not look to some church thats more interested in their money than their peace of mind and soul.So many people just blindly follow.it amazes me.

Originally posted by Samhain
I believe Jesus to have been a revolutionary and a threat to the status Quo.just as he would be today.


"Love God!!and Love each other !!!"
Jesus wouldnt be hanging out in mega million dollar churches or drive a BMW with a WWJD sticker on it.he has been manipulated into an industry that feeds on peoples natural tendency to herd together.if jesus came back today like he did 2000 years ago,as the lamb.then his influence would have to be stopped just like they stopped it the first time.we had our chance at a perfect world,and we hung it on a cross and watched it die.Thankfully,i see his message DESPITE all the crap both sides of the christian issue spew out.i wish people could think for themselves and not look to some church thats more interested in their money than their peace of mind and soul.So many people just blindly follow.it amazes me.

Errm...okay...