Monster in the Universe, page 1

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Topic started on 29-11-2012 @ 08:07 PM by curiousrb

A black hole has been found that is 17 BILLION times larger than our sun!

This is possibly one of the biggest black holes ever to be observed.

Black hole

The black hole is as unexpected as it is vast, for it accounts for nearly a seventh of its galaxy's mass, a finding that may rewrite theories of cosmic formation, they said.

It accounts for a whopping 14 percent of the galaxy's mass, compared with the 0.1 percent that is the norm for galactic black holes.

NGC 1277 is already the second biggest black hole ever observed, and it is a strong contender for the top spot, for the current record holder, spotted in 2011, has still not been precisely calculated. It is somewhere between six and 37 billion solar masses.

This is incredible!
It will be interesting when all the calculations have been made.
I wonder what lies beyond these black holes?

reply posted on 29-11-2012 @ 10:57 PM by C-JEAN

Hi black holes (BH) fans.

I would say :
As long as a BH has something to eat, I suspect there is no limit to its size?. . .

Mayby all we now see (and not) with our telescopes is the result of
the "reverse" effects of an almost infinite sized BH ??

I mean:
1 = A BH pulls/eats matter, A LOT OF IT ! ! !
2 = it gets REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY BIG.
3 = the result, at a certain point, is "us". . .our existance. . .
. . .the reverse of that VEEEEEEEEEEEEERY ENORMOUS BH that was. . .
4= and these "alternative states" (pull then push) have no beginning and no end;
it has always been, and will always be.

Blue skies.

reply posted on 29-11-2012 @ 11:42 PM by ujustneverknow

If we have these black holes eating everything and some are this large , is it possible the universe is turning itself inside out?
I don't mean to be simple , it's fascinating but I don't fully understand it.

reply posted on 30-11-2012 @ 12:34 AM by curiousrb

I personally don't think many if any understand black holes. We know how they form and what they seem to do. But there must be a lot more to it. And I think the mystery makes it all that more interesting.

reply posted on 30-11-2012 @ 03:49 AM by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by curiousrb
A black hole has been found that is 17 BILLION times larger than our sun!

This is possibly one of the biggest black holes ever to be observed.

Black hole

You did not say what the source said when you stated "17 BILLION times larger than our sun", so please be careful or you may get a response like this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Since the rant has already been ranted in that link, I won't repeat it here.

Sometimes the media screws it up, but in this case the media actually got it right.

How much larger it is than the sun depends on what you mean by larger. Most people think of physical dimensions when you say larger, like height width length type of concept.

I had to do some calculations to figure out how much larger than the sun it is because I didn't see any sources stating that. Here is how much larger it is in physical dimensions:

The event horizon radius is 72,000 times greater than the sun's radius.
This means the volume of the event horizon is 373 trillion times greater than the volume of the sun (which is nowhere near 17 billion, and this is what I'd infer when someone says "larger" without any qualification).

The 17 billion reference is comparing mass, not size.

I did a few more comparisons. If the Earth was a black hole, it would be roughly the size of a peanut.
In contrast, the event horizon of this black hole is about 330 times the average radius of the Earth's orbit.

So yeah, it's freaking huge any way you look at it.

edit on 30-11-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

reply posted on 30-11-2012 @ 04:21 AM by wildespace

I wonder what the Electric Universe followers will say to this. In their theory, black holes don't exist.

reply posted on 30-11-2012 @ 04:27 AM by mcx1942

17 billion times?! Wow! That is amazing!

14% of our galaxy's mass! I never get tired of exploring this beautiful Universe!

S & F Friend OP

reply posted on 30-11-2012 @ 04:36 AM by Son of Will

Originally posted by curiousrb
I personally don't think many if any understand black holes. We know how they form and what they seem to do. But there must be a lot more to it. And I think the mystery makes it all that more interesting.

We certainly DO NOT know what they are, how they form, or how exactly they interact with the matter around them.

What we do have are theories. Lots of them. And observation. The difference between theory and fact is truly vast. For example, our theories for how gravity works break down at small scales and large scales. The whole point of the discrepancy between QM and General Relativity is that gravity's force is vastly more powerful at small scales than at classical scales.

Likewise, "Dark matter" is an ad hoc concoction created when observational data wildly disagreed with cosmological models. Galaxies rotate far faster than classical gravitation models permit.

This all becomes easier to understand when one realizes that physical models and mathematical equations are intended to "approximate" reality, not actually mirror it. When such models are extrapolated beyond observational or laboratory data, they quickly become irrelevant or even misleading. The public are left in a state of either confusion, humbled wonder, or both, from the irresponsibility of Academia.

reply posted on 30-11-2012 @ 05:51 AM by curiousrb

reply to post by Son of Will

I'm not sure we know how the galactic ones form but the ones that form when a stars gravity causes it to implode and therefore release a massive amount of energy as it explodes.

I meant it in pretty simplistic terms, like we know they have extremely strong gravity, as light cannot escape them. And as light travels extremely quickly, that is a massive force.

But I'm no astrophysicist.

Thanks Arbi - I will be more careful next time

edit on 30-11-2012 by curiousrb because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-12-2012 @ 02:11 AM by Son of Will

reply to post by curiousrb

You're still treating these unproven models (yes, black holes are just theory) as if they werre fact. Size is irelevant because they both are extensions of the same theory of gravity. Problem is, it has serious flaws. Observational data (real world) does not agree with predictions made using these models (approximations of real world). If I wasn't using a dinky handheld device I could link you some fascinating material. Halton Arp is a good source.

But keep in mind, the whole purpose of the 20th century attempt at creating a unified field theory was based on the well-established fact that as scale decreases to levels associated with quantum mechanics, the force of gravity skyrockets to inexplicably high levels. Einstein's General Relativity has no explanation, hence the need to "unify" the two.

Likewise, as scale increases to the size of galaxies, gravity once again breaks down. Hence the ad hoc creation of "dark matter". It was only created to help classical models of gravity account for the observed rotation of galaxies. Instead of going back to the drawing board, as is the standard scientific procedure when a theory fails to account for laboratory or observational data, a few scientists concocted a new substance entirely.

It's unconventional, and for good reason - it is simply not logical. The whole thing stinks. I hope this makes sense.

Cheers

edit on 1-12-2012 by Son of Will because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-12-2012 @ 05:09 AM by curiousrb

reply to post by Son of Will

Cheers for the information.

I will have a look at that link soon. Great to learn new things and i appreciate it

reply posted on 1-12-2012 @ 06:03 AM by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Son of Will
the well-established fact that as scale decreases to levels associated with quantum mechanics, the force of gravity skyrockets to inexplicably high levels.

Please post a link to this "well-established fact that as scale decreases to levels associated with quantum mechanics, the force of gravity skyrockets".

Likewise, as scale increases to the size of galaxies, gravity once again breaks down. Hence the ad hoc creation of "dark matter". It was only created to help classical models of gravity account for the observed rotation of galaxies. Instead of going back to the drawing board, as is the standard scientific procedure when a theory fails to account for laboratory or observational data, a few scientists concocted a new substance entirely.

Modified gravity theories have been proposed, such as MOND (MOdified Newtonian Dynamics), and others. However, no known modified gravity theory can explain observations in the bullet cluster alone, so even if MOND or similar is true, something else must be going on...if not dark matter, then something that produces similar effects:

A direct empirical proof of the existence of dark matter

An 8-sigma significance spatial offset of the center of the total mass from the center of the baryonic mass peaks cannot be explained with an alteration of the gravitational force law, and thus proves that the majority of the matter in the system is unseen.

There's just no way to modify gravitational theory to explain the different center of mass, according to the authors, and apparently this view is widely accepted. Prior to this, the modified gravity theories were given more consideration. I don't think they've been ruled out completely, as there could be some combination of modified gravity and something else going on, but there does appear to be something else if you read that paper.

So there's my source, where's yours?

edit on 1-12-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

reply posted on 4-12-2012 @ 03:58 AM by GBBumblebee

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
...
I did a few more comparisons. If the Earth was a black hole, it would be roughly the size of a peanut.
In contrast, the event horizon of this black hole is about 330 times the average radius of the Earth's orbit.

So yeah, it's freaking huge any way you look at it.
edit on 30-11-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification

Neptune's orbit is only ~30AU correct? So that makes the event horizon ~11 times larger than the orbit of Neptune?

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