The folly of atheism

reply to post by Prezbo369

There you go again.....

Atheists by definition are defined by lack of faith in god/s, this is the one and only 'thought' that can be attributed to them by default.

Actually, since not a single atheist today can prove beyond a doubt that there is no god, it's simply a belief on the far end of the spectrum. Neither can sufficiently prove their case, so both sides are based on faith. Furthermore, atheists primarily deny the existence of gods based on impressions of the most popular deity, the Christian god. Seeing as how they generally narrow their arguments right down to that one, I'd have to say atheists really aren't a whole lot more open-minded than Christians. In my mind, using one example of divinity to dismiss all concepts of divinity is a little dense. Just because the first plane didn't work, doesn't mean the Wright brothers dismissed the idea of flight. They just kept looking until they found one that worked.

The atheists have given up far too soon, and the Christians have formulated their conclusions far too soon as well. Neither side is willing to admit that they just don't know. This, to me, is the biggest flaw of all - the reluctance to admit ignorance. If you can't admit you are ignorant, how do you ever learn the truth? This applies to all parties involved. I will gladly acknowledge that.

You do not believe in god/s

You are an atheist.......stop attempting to act as-though you're better than either side when the truth is you lack the integrity and honesty of both parties.

Me? Atheist? Pfft...hardly. As I have stated above, I am strong enough to admit that while I have a fair amount of ideas that I am working with at the moment, I know nothing. I can make educated guesses, but I cannot say for a fact. I am willing to share my opinion, but I will not say, "This is the one and only truth." I remain vague with my assertions for this reason...I can give a general idea, but I don't know enough to be detailed. And in all, it's just my opinion.

Now, to the point: I am not atheist. If you think I am atheist, you have not bothered to read any of my posts, because I make my stance on the subject quite clear. I have done so many times. I am quasitheist, which is to say, my beliefs share similarities with, but are not identical to, theism.

Here is a summary of my thoughts on Christianity:

When we say "God", we're using that mold which has been reworked in order to achieve someone's ideal of "THIS is what a god should be!" and we ran with it. Unfortunately, we have no idea what a god should be, and as a species that goes, "GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME I WANT I WANT I WANT", our deity reflects our collective nature. Which is why, should I open a dictionary and look up the word 'vanity', I fully expect to see a picture of "God" right next to it. Self-entitlement, pride, and delusional tyranny.

And it's all based in fear. Recognition of the darkness inside, and fear that if we don't use it first, someone else will and rob us of our happiness. The darkness has too many expressions to be completely safe from it, and we know that. That's why "God" is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent: it's a complete loop without flaw, every single possibility of darkness closed out. It's what we wish we could be, and that's why we worship it. We worship our idea of perfection, the utter lack of fear, and that's why we're fools with the potential to become wise. Unfortunately, we're more intent on demonizing ourselves for not yet having attained that perfection, than we are on resolving that lack of perfection. Simply put, we're whipping ourselves for our perceived crimes and doing penitence instead of drawing a plan for resolving the whole issue. That's as close as I can get to defining the nature of the current deity, and that's as close as I need to get, I think.

That's from the thread I've linked in my signature, and it's the best summary I have drawn up. Now, this isn't to say I don't believe in a kind of divinity. I believe in a celestial law of motion, the purpose of which is to ensure that all things continually create and recreate in an endless cycle of immortal life through the intelligent mobility of energy. It's not even conscious in the sense of you and I; rather, it stores the accumulative experiences of everything that goes back to it. And everything does go back to it. But it does not judge, because it has no bias. You could think of it as a circle - perfect balance, eternal motion, no beginning or end, and no reservation. All things have a purpose. And the best part about it is that it's scientifically valid. I don't have the evidence, but it rooted in the laws of motion, in all of matter, and all the energy in that matter, in everything that exists.


In this way, it is similar to Christianity. But in many ways, it also opposes Christianity, because it lacks all anthropomorphism. It doesn't even remotely resemble humans, because its perfection is found in constant imperfection. And in the constant perfection of these imperfections, joy is found through achievement and enlightenment. And when perfection is finally attained, it no longer exists. It is no longer individual, it is all. And then it goes back to being individual (i.e. human or animal) and the cycle begins anew. What is the purpose to being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent? There is no change, there is no achievement, there is nothing but existence. Monotony at its very worst.

The obvious solution: an endless cycle of experience. Every combination of challenges that can be devised. Discovering all of the possibilities of being weak, finite, and ignorant. And quite frankly, the possibilities are endless, and they are as exhilarating as being a god. And that's another thing Christians are woefully incorrect about, you know. "God", in his hypothetical existence, is not omniscient, because he has never known what it is like to be weak and ignorant. And the worst part? According to the Bible, he would never choose to be. He sent his son to die, rather than coming to earth himself, and that says everything to me.

Hence, my beliefs. See how well you don't know me?

Stick your neck out, have an opinion, or any points you attempt to make on these boards are going to seem flaky and unreliable...

I have always done so. You simply haven't been reading. I would advise you work on that.

reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

My dear brother, I am afraid you are still not giving me a direct answer. Your arguments are just only what people of all religions put forward to validate their religion. There is no definite logic in it.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
I think you miss the point.

If the bible is verified to be accurate through the passage of time then we are left with the following possibilities:

1. The characters in the bible are just legend, a work of fiction, or greatly exaggerated.
2. Jesus was a liar and a deceiver along with his followers.
3. Jesus was a lunatic.
4. Jesus is the Son of God.

(The above is taken from C.S. Lewis: Legend, Liar, Lunatic or Lord?)

If any of the first three are true then a lot of people died for their belief in vain. All of the martyrs that clung to their faith in Jesus being the messiah were either misled or complicit in the lie. If these people had any doubt that Jesus was the messiah then they would have renounced their faith when they were persecuted or threatened with execution. The majority of them kept their faith despite this, were they all suicidal? Thousands of christians were martyred by the Romans and the Jews for keeping their faith in Jesus as their Saviour.

Just look around you. Can't you see how easily the masses are manipulated? At this very moment there are hundreds, if not thousands, of jihadist extremists ready to blow themselves up and other hundreds of innocent people, in the name of their religion and God. They do this because they have been brainwashed by whoever, not because they are just suicidal.. Would you agree with them? So it is an indisputable fact that people are ready to kill or be killed in the name of religion. The deep faith of people is no indication whatsoever of the divinity or authenticity of a religion.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
On top of all this, the teachings of Jesus make perfect sense to me in this crazy world. The sins of the world are heaping up, corruption is rampant and becoming more bold and in our faces with each passing day. It makes perfect sense to me that God would come down in the flesh and ask us to repent of our wicked ways.

I don't just 'believe' for the sake of 'believing'.

These two scripture passages sum up where we are today:

2 Peter 3:3 "Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires."

and this passage here is describing people that claim to be christian but their lives do not reflect it:

2 Tim 3:1-5 "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

As I told you, the content of the book does not validate its divine claims. There may be many good, or even prophetic, points in some holy books. This only proves that some people with a possible talent of foreseeing the future contributed to the book.

But there are innumerable erroneous, obsolete and misleading ideas also in all religious books. Sure you know that the respective god in the holy books of many (especially organized) religions have repeatedly called for the killing of innocent people just because they do not accept this god as the only God. Isn't it obvious that such religions are a deliberate effort to acquire/maintain power and control over the masses?

Coming back to my question(s)...
Where is the irrefutable proof that your religion or holy book is really divine and the others are not?
Why do people just take the word of their parents / ancestors / community and blindly accept a religion as well as try to enforce it on others?
Why do you think God would send only one man to a specific location on earth (that too when communication between parts of the world was very limited) to save the whole world and expect other people in far away places to believe in this for the rest of eternity? Wouldn't it have been more easier and (less violent and more merciful) to just send many saviors or the same savior to different parts of the world at different periods to save humanity in a proper way?

My list of such questions are endless. Not one has been answered to my satisfaction till date.

reply to post by homeskillet

your problem with science is your own problem. do some scientists have the absence of belief of god/gods? of course and some of them are more than happy to tell you but thats their personal issue. it has nothing to do with the observation and testing of the mechanics of the world we live in.

What about science suggests to you the nonexistence of divinity of any kind? What about this world tells you that there is no intelligence to the structure of the universe? I'm not promoting religion here, I am asking why the foolishness of some faiths results in your disbelief in all things spiritual and metaphysical.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by homeskillet

 

your problem with science is your own problem. do some scientists have the absence of belief of god/gods? of course and some of them are more than happy to tell you but thats their personal issue. it has nothing to do with the observation and testing of the mechanics of the world we live in.

What about science suggests to you the nonexistence of divinity of any kind? What about this world tells you that there is no intelligence to the structure of the universe? I'm not promoting religion here, I am asking why the foolishness of some faiths results in your disbelief in all things spiritual and metaphysical.

i didnt say anything about sciences stance on god. if you're someone who believes in the scientific method, which like i stated before is really just the observation and potential manipulation of nature, then i dont see where the two should connect. science( really i mean the scientific method) is a tool to help us along, nothing more.

to me, its pointless and probably beyond our powers of understanding to really worry about it. do i like to speculate? sure, thats why im here but logic is in favor of the absence. there just is no proof( as of now, ill at least concede to) that order=intention. just because something blows your mind doesnt mean its been made on purpose.you can point to all the things you find as coincidental and it still means nothing more than your brain picking and choosing information to make a picture of the world. ive stated before on ats that marveling in the wonders of life is not exclusive to theists. i feel that that feeling of wonder is as great as the wonder of people who believe in god.

if you or anyone have had some kind of perceived mystical experience, thats great. but its not relevant to me. until i have my own, i will still be in doubt. if it has improved and enriched your life and not driven you to extremism then im for it.

reply to post by homeskillet


Considering the nature of the topic, I'd like to discuss that a little further if you don't mind.

to me, its pointless and probably beyond our powers of understanding to really worry about it. do i like to speculate? sure, thats why im here but logic is in favor of the absence. there just is no proof( as of now, ill at least concede to) that order=intention.

Scientists generally agree that the universe was born out of chaos, correct? There's also the whole entropy deal which basically tells us everything is doomed to break down and go away. If the universe was born out of chaos and developed into entropy, doesn't that suggest the earth and everything on it should have degenerated into something less organized than hundreds of nations featuring huge skyscrapers and flying vehicles with mankind controlling life, death, weather, animals, and each other? Kind of opposes the general idea of chaos and entropy, don't you think?

So in a universe where entropy is a given, how does order maintain itself? See, order by itself doesn't imply intention. Order in the face of entropy implies intention, whether it be a person - or something else, the very nature of that something being to organize and build.

What are your thoughts?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by homeskillet

 

Considering the nature of the topic, I'd like to discuss that a little further if you don't mind.

to me, its pointless and probably beyond our powers of understanding to really worry about it. do i like to speculate? sure, thats why im here but logic is in favor of the absence. there just is no proof( as of now, ill at least concede to) that order=intention.

Scientists generally agree that the universe was born out of chaos, correct? There's also the whole entropy deal which basically tells us everything is doomed to break down and go away. If the universe was born out of chaos and developed into entropy, doesn't that suggest the earth and everything on it should have degenerated into something less organized than hundreds of nations featuring huge skyscrapers and flying vehicles with mankind controlling life, death, weather, animals, and each other? Kind of opposes the general idea of chaos and entropy, don't you think?

So in a universe where entropy is a given, how does order maintain itself? See, order by itself doesn't imply intention. Order in the face of entropy implies intention, whether it be a person - or something else, the very nature of that something being to organize and build.

What are your thoughts?

i am not a physicist and im not going to pretend to understand all the hard work thats been done over the centuries but do get some of it. the big bang theory says that everything was in an extremely hot dense state. not a chaotic state. matter was formed from the cooling of the expansion. although there is entropy there is also complexity forming. the laws of the universe allow for complex systems to arise even if only temporarily. entropy is still happening on a grand scale. its just happening over billions of years.

there are a lot of books out there that can put it way better than i can and i suggest you read them over listen to me.

reply to post by homeskillet

the laws of the universe allow for complex systems to arise even if only temporarily. entropy is still happening on a grand scale. its just happening over billions of years.

The earth is over 4 billion years old, and yet here we are, technologically advanced and all that. Are you saying that my suggestion may not be entirely accurate?

May Yahweh God and His Only Begotten Son our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and their Holy Spirit forgive and bless you all, believer or non believer both alike,

Yours with Love, Grace and Truth

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by homeskillet

 

the laws of the universe allow for complex systems to arise even if only temporarily. entropy is still happening on a grand scale. its just happening over billions of years.

The earth is over 4 billion years old, and yet here we are, technologically advanced and all that. Are you saying that my suggestion may not be entirely accurate?

im saying that entropy is more complex than "stuff falls apart". but entropy can be lower or higher depending on the conditions.

look up the second law of thermodynamics. like i said before, there are people who can explain it way better than myself.

Originally posted by godlover25
May Yahweh God and His Only Begotten Son our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and their Holy Spirit forgive and bless you all, believer or non believer both alike,

Yours with Love, Grace and Truth

thanks!

reply to post by homeskillet

im saying that entropy is more complex than "stuff falls apart". but entropy can be lower or higher depending on the conditions.

Yes, but it still happens. So if something builds up over a period of time, without apparent intelligent cause, doesn't that imply a resistance to entropy?

Originally posted by homeskillet

Originally posted by Wonders

“If a brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault just between the two of you. If he listens, you have won your brother back. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you so that every word may be verified by two or three witnesses. If he ignores these witnesses, tell it to the church. If he also ignores the church, then treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” (Matt 18:15)

So you can see here that Jesus did not say that everyone deserved to be treated the same like you thought he did, so either you didn't read it or you couldn't comprehend, which is it?

you may have read the bible or been taught by your local preacher but i think it may be you that is having trouble comprehending.

i get it perfectly well. what im saying is you can treat people as tax collectors or pagans because they dont get your books accusations of sin (ie: dont want to live like you).so what does that entail? is it saying to have patience? is it only ostracizing them from your community? or is it worse? are you saying that jesus went so far as to say you should eliminate the enemy? to which the bible says that only god will have the power to judge.

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ... " Romans 14:1-23

so, once again it seems your comprehension skill need some tweaking. ill repeat my previous reply, jesus is telling you to be strong in your convictions. you'll meet opposition as he supposedly did. he isnt saying not to rebuke people because you should be a hippy but to go ahead and rebuke all you want...but expect confrontation. he's also saying not to succumb to anger and violence. or, bring the horse to water but dont expect him to drink and then dont stab him because he wont.

www.loveyourenemies.org...

"go and tell him his fault"...you want to call that "ostracizing", that's your prerogative.
John 7:24-26 "Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly. (THIS is what "the one who got hit in the face" said. I would advise you not to attribute what Paul said to Jesus.)
Some of the people who lived in Jerusalem started to ask each other, "Isn't this the man they are trying to kill? "
But here he is, speaking in public, and they say nothing to him. Could our leaders possibly believe that he is the Messiah?
Did you catch that? "and they say nothing to him" can you tell me why they didn't "rebuke" him?
Jesus knew what sort of effect he had on the people, he knew he would piss some people off, now why do you think he would do that?
Jesus said to expect confrontation, and it seems some ATS member pride themselves on the fact that this is a place to confront the wierdos and the have nots, namely the Christians, this is because people by nature can't stand to be corrected, it makes them feel insecure and they get scared thinking that other people may not respect them as much.
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
John 15:20 Do you remember what I told you? 'A slave is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you.

So yes, people who listen to Jesus follow his example, and the world will begin to hate them. Makes sense?

reply to post by Wonders

So yes, people who listen to Jesus follow his example, and the world will begin to hate them. Makes sense?

That's because they fail to understand the true message, and with that lack, they substitute an understanding of their own - something they inevitably agree with, and given the flaws of humankind, it will probably be something judgmental and biased.

And because of their righteous "mission from God", they refuse to back down. And people get hurt. That's half the problem: judgment. Christians think they have the right to judge everyone, and they can only think in Bible verses, something that's just a little out of place in this era. Try thinking in regular logic, not something that encourages you to judge and condemn.

Not to mention that they're still waiting for Jesus to return. Meanwhile, the world continues to burn. Yeah, that's right! Jesus promised to return, but still no sign! And the world keeps burning and burning and burning and burning...

Originally posted by XLR8R
reply to post by Wonders

 

Not only Mason symbolism. There's the nights Templar, The Vatican, The Illuminati and a couples of other subtle
things in there too. I tell people be as spiritual as you want to be but leave religion out of it. Why, because it only creates division. religious people always pass judgement. Instead of using common sense, which religion destroys as well, they turn to the "good book" which was written by man not god. Instead of taking the bible at it's word, get an education and research where, when it was written and how many times the bible was re-written. You will then understand that you, as your bible states, are worshiping a false idol.

Creates division? Is division a bad thing?
Why does it have to be either spiritual or religious, why can't it be: what we know, and what we don't know.
Here's what I know about what Jesus said about division.
Luke 12:51 Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other!
Religion does not destroy common sense, people do, guns don't kill people, people do.
You write about the "good book" being written by man, well so far as I know, the only thing that wasn't written by man were the ten commandments on the two stones. What do you know now that hasn't been written down by another before you?
I have done research, please don't make empty accusations. I don't consider myself a Christian, because yes, most of them do worship false idols and have a twisted ideology and the bible said to "Come out of her lest you share in her suffering."
It's pathetic really, that so many people are willing to tear down something they've never really bothered to understand to begin with.

Originally posted by SambhavaamiYugeYuge
reply to post by ConspiracyNutjob

My dear brother, I am afraid you are still not giving me a direct answer. Your arguments are just only what people of all religions put forward to validate their religion. There is no definite logic in it.

Just look around you. Can't you see how easily the masses are manipulated? At this very moment there are hundreds, if not thousands, of jihadist extremists ready to blow themselves up and other hundreds of innocent people, in the name of their religion and God. They do this because they have been brainwashed by whoever, not because they are just suicidal.. Would you agree with them? So it is an indisputable fact that people are ready to kill or be killed in the name of religion. The deep faith of people is no indication whatsoever of the divinity or authenticity of a religion.

As I told you, the content of the book does not validate its divine claims. There may be many good, or even prophetic, points in some holy books. This only proves that some people with a possible talent of foreseeing the future contributed to the book.

But there are innumerable erroneous, obsolete and misleading ideas also in all religious books. Sure you know that the respective god in the holy books of many (especially organized) religions have repeatedly called for the killing of innocent people just because they do not accept this god as the only God. Isn't it obvious that such religions are a deliberate effort to acquire/maintain power and control over the masses?

Coming back to my question(s)...
Where is the irrefutable proof that your religion or holy book is really divine and the others are not?
Why do people just take the word of their parents / ancestors / community and blindly accept a religion as well as try to enforce it on others?
Why do you think God would send only one man to a specific location on earth (that too when communication between parts of the world was very limited) to save the whole world and expect other people in far away places to believe in this for the rest of eternity? Wouldn't it have been more easier and (less violent and more merciful) to just send many saviors or the same savior to different parts of the world at different periods to save humanity in a proper way?

My list of such questions are endless. Not one has been answered to my satisfaction till date.

edit on 30/11/2012 by SambhavaamiYugeYuge because: typo

If you believe that mere 'study' or 'reading' the bible or 'hearing' the words of Jesus is what converts someone into becoming a christian then you are sorely mistaken. We do not just blindly follow the teachings.

A sincere person will investigate the authenticity of the claims made within the new testament. Jesus was the verification of the old testament scriptures and his teachings are compiled within the new testament.

When Paul preached to the Berean's about the identity of Jesus, they studied the old testament scriptures to identify if Jesus was the Christ. When they discovered that Jesus was truly the Christ they repented of their sins, were baptised and received the gift of the holy spirit.

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)


Faith is not obtained by an individual, it is a gift from God.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This gift is not tangible, in the same way that love is not tangible. It is present but something that can never be physically grasped, and it cannot be grasped by the mind of a man that is not sincere.

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (1 Corinthians 1:19)

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Actually, since not a single atheist today can prove beyond a doubt that there is no god, it's simply a belief on the far end of the spectrum.

This first sentence just how ignorant you are on such matters. If you can find an atheist that says they know absolutely without a shadow of a doubt that there is no god, then you've found a genuine lunatic.

I've corrected you on this before, and no doubt you'll just ignore another correction instead of attempting to show why its wrong.....but here goes.....

A- (without) theism (belief in god)

Its the lack of a belief, its the rejection of the claims made by theists, it's when asked if you believe in god you reply 'nah' or 'pfft' or indeed anything other than 'yes'. And that's what you've done isn't it.....because your an atheist

I don't expect you to develop any integrity on this matter, I just hope to show anyone else interested how dishonest and cowardly a position it is to take.

Furthermore, atheists primarily deny the existence of gods based on impressions of the most popular deity, the Christian god. Seeing as how they generally narrow their arguments right down to that one, I'd have to say atheists really aren't a whole lot more open-minded than Christians. In my mind, using one example of divinity to dismiss all concepts of divinity is a little dense. Just because the first plane didn't work, doesn't mean the Wright brothers dismissed the idea of flight. They just kept looking until they found one that worked.

If your hopelessly romantic set of vague and flaky beliefs had been the dominating cult christianity has been and continues to be for the past 2000+ years then you might have a leg to stand on. But as it is indeed christianity that effects all our lives on a daily basis and not your own personal set of superstitions, you don't.......

The Wright brothers had a ton of repeatable testable information on the dynamics of powered flight i.e. evidence....hell they left the ground with their first few attempts........not much of either happening in the spiritually inept universe at the moment is there?....

You're another one of these modern-day self appointed sages, who thinks they alone have uncovered the truth where everyone else in the world failed. And yet you seem to be devoid of anything substantial whatsoever to back up your claims.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by homeskillet

 

im saying that entropy is more complex than "stuff falls apart". but entropy can be lower or higher depending on the conditions.

So if something builds up over a period of time, without apparent intelligent cause, doesn't that imply a resistance to entropy?

no, it implies that there is less or more entropy depending on the conditions but we are still to succumb to maximum entropy or the heat death of the universe.

im not sure if you really know the answer and are trying to catch me in a wrong answer or you want me to explain it to you.

once again, i dont know enough to explain myself so i cant really continue on this path. also, still, read some books on the subject.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by homeskillet

Originally posted by Wonders

“If a brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault just between the two of you. If he listens, you have won your brother back. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you so that every word may be verified by two or three witnesses. If he ignores these witnesses, tell it to the church. If he also ignores the church, then treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” (Matt 18:15)

So you can see here that Jesus did not say that everyone deserved to be treated the same like you thought he did, so either you didn't read it or you couldn't comprehend, which is it?

you may have read the bible or been taught by your local preacher but i think it may be you that is having trouble comprehending.

i get it perfectly well. what im saying is you can treat people as tax collectors or pagans because they dont get your books accusations of sin (ie: dont want to live like you).so what does that entail? is it saying to have patience? is it only ostracizing them from your community? or is it worse? are you saying that jesus went so far as to say you should eliminate the enemy? to which the bible says that only god will have the power to judge.

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ... " Romans 14:1-23

so, once again it seems your comprehension skill need some tweaking. ill repeat my previous reply, jesus is telling you to be strong in your convictions. you'll meet opposition as he supposedly did. he isnt saying not to rebuke people because you should be a hippy but to go ahead and rebuke all you want...but expect confrontation. he's also saying not to succumb to anger and violence. or, bring the horse to water but dont expect him to drink and then dont stab him because he wont.

www.loveyourenemies.org...

"go and tell him his fault"...you want to call that "ostracizing", that's your prerogative.
John 7:24-26 "Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly. (THIS is what "the one who got hit in the face" said. I would advise you not to attribute what Paul said to Jesus.)
Some of the people who lived in Jerusalem started to ask each other, "Isn't this the man they are trying to kill? "
But here he is, speaking in public, and they say nothing to him. Could our leaders possibly believe that he is the Messiah?
Did you catch that? "and they say nothing to him" can you tell me why they didn't "rebuke" him?
Jesus knew what sort of effect he had on the people, he knew he would piss some people off, now why do you think he would do that?
Jesus said to expect confrontation, and it seems some ATS member pride themselves on the fact that this is a place to confront the wierdos and the have nots, namely the Christians, this is because people by nature can't stand to be corrected, it makes them feel insecure and they get scared thinking that other people may not respect them as much.
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
John 15:20 Do you remember what I told you? 'A slave is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you.

So yes, people who listen to Jesus follow his example, and the world will begin to hate them. Makes sense?

there are 2.8 billion christians around the world and tons more of other theists. im not the one who opened the discussion. and this all doesnt mean much because its all going on the assumption that jesus is god and real so like my first post, scripture means nothing to the atheist.

you can believe whatever you want, just keep it to yours and other theists selves. there's a growing group of people that just dont need it and yes they are the minority... for now. hmmm remind you of some little group from 2000 years ago that is now 2.8billion world wide?

im starting to feel like im debating the finer details of the harry potter series( which i'd actually prefer) so im going to chill a bit. cheers

reply to post by homeskillet


The Mechanics of science makes it prudent to know your own limitations and origins . . It would seem you could care less about the other side of the coin , you just don't like this one .That's like saying to hell with reason and reality I chose the other one , what ever it is . I know I just don't like this one and anyone that does is delusional . You have that right , but speaking of delusional ?

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
If you believe that mere 'study' or 'reading' the bible or 'hearing' the words of Jesus is what converts someone into becoming a christian then you are sorely mistaken. We do not just blindly follow the teachings.

A sincere person will investigate the authenticity of the claims made within the new testament. Jesus was the verification of the old testament scriptures and his teachings are compiled within the new testament.

When Paul preached to the Berean's about the identity of Jesus, they studied the old testament scriptures to identify if Jesus was the Christ. When they discovered that Jesus was truly the Christ they repented of their sins, were baptised and received the gift of the holy spirit.

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (Acts 17:11)


Faith is not obtained by an individual, it is a gift from God.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

This gift is not tangible, in the same way that love is not tangible. It is present but something that can never be physically grasped, and it cannot be grasped by the mind of a man that is not sincere.

For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (1 Corinthians 1:19)

It seems we are vibrating in two entirely different frequencies which do not resonate with each other. I respect your strong faith and your purity at heart (I hope ) in following your religion. Unfortunately or fortunately I do not possess the capability to believe without concrete proof or logic and reasoning.

So I guess I will have to wait longer to get rational answers to my questions. Best of luck, my dear friend.