Is Ayn Rands “Atlas Shrugged” a prophecy? It’s starting to look likely.

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posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by Thepump
 


In her book "the producers" virtually leave society because they are stifled.
yes, now please descibe how being stifled is competetive in any manner.

huh ??
options are options ONLY when an opt-out exists.
otherwise it isn't an option.


Her philosophy is that greed and self interest should be championed, not frowned upon.
i firmly disagree.


Yet, the people that comprise corporations and governments perpetrate their evil deeds based upon the forces of greed and self interest
and this isn't possible and here's why.
self interest cannot be demonstrated by a company or corporation.
it is always a collective interest ... NEVER self interest.

yes, some CEOs operate under self interest.
yes, many individuals operate under self interest.
however, no corporation consists of a single shareholder, hence, self interest isn't even on the menu.

confusing or comingling the two concepts is always a fallacy.




posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by ISHAMAGI
You cannot wax poetically about a Utopia and continue to ACT LIKE ANIMALS.



But the thing is, there are always two lines of thought on any given situation. That alone produces competition. It doesn't always have to be vindictive. But many make it so when they are proven wrong.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by TDawgRex
 


"Mankind requires competition to survive."

Bull#. Certain people have an issue with needing to compete. Competition is not necessary to survive.
actually it is.
doesn't matter if it's on a corporate level or an individual one.
however, without competition, we have -0- progress.

competition is the spark that ignites innovation.
the desire to make an existing thing, better, is still competition.


Cooperation gets the job done.
sometimes but more often than not it doesn't get the job assigned done



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by icmom
 

"The employees do not sacrifice for the business . . ."

Bull#. I ruined my health for the boss' business. That's how "invested" I was in it.

I can't work now.

Don't you ever say that employees don't sacrifice for their employers. It's a complete lie and you know it.
i would beg to differ with your opinion.

i am sorry to hear your health was your expense, however, you had control over sacrificing your health and your sacrifice was primarily for your personal benefit, not the business.

yes, the business gained from your contribution, however, aside from your blood, sweat and time, (for which you were compensated) what else did you contribute to build, expand, enhance or market that business ?

i am not discounting your efforts or your sacrifice, however, you did not sacrifice FOR the business, you sacrificed for your business of daily life.
as subtle as it may seem, it's a huge difference.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:08 AM
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According to Wikipedia, the mood of Atlas Shrugged seems to be close to that of the depression-era 1930s. This would make sense taking into account Strauss–Howe generational theory, which would place us at (2012-80=1932) around a similar feel to 1932 at the moment.




Her philosophy doesn't support wealth-redistribution.


That is correct. But I do support paying taxes. If you want an apartment, you pay rent. If you want to live in a civilized society, you pay taxes.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:17 AM
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This whole idea of Obama redistributing wealth is complete nonsense. He wants to tax the top 2% at a higher rate in order to help pay for expenses and keep us from going over the fiscal cliff. In one study, when Americans were told that they could enter into society at any level, and shown graphs of income distribution, they chose a model that was even more socialist than Sweden's.

Obama is not a communist, and he is not planning on nationalizing all businesses, and he is not planning on getting rid of private property, or free speech, or running a gestapo.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:25 AM
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Her philosophy is that greed and self interest should be championed, not frowned upon.
i firmly disagree.


Well, you're wrong. That is her philosophy.



Ethical egoism (also called simply egoism) is the normative ethical position that moral agents ought to do what is in their own self-interest.


Wikipedia

While I do agree somewhat with this, I don't think that getting rid of taxes is in anyone's best interest.

In addition, Ayn Rand tends to completely oversimplify and misunderstand what would be in someone's best interest. What we call "altruism" actually makes a society that benefits everyone more than if they were out for themselves. She can't even follow her own philosophy's core tenet.

So in a way, you are right - her philosophy is about being a complete idiot and ending up in a society where you harm yourself because of your actions; it isn't about self-interest at all.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by darkbake
This whole idea of Obama redistributing wealth is complete nonsense. He wants to tax the top 2% at a higher rate in order to help pay for expenses and keep us from going over the fiscal cliff. In one study, when Americans were told that they could enter into society at any level, and shown graphs of income distribution, they chose a model that was even more socialist than Sweden's.

Obama is not a communist, and he is not planning on nationalizing all businesses, and he is not planning on getting rid of private property, or free speech, or running a gestapo.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
this is a pretty bold statement without ANY proof.
have you seen the recent budget submission by TGeithner ?
it's much more than a budget.
(Wrabbit has a thread on it if you haven't seen it)

as to his communist upbringing, it's been documented.
he was born muslim, from his father with high level, direct links to the Muslim Brotherhood
(also documented)
he was surrounded with communist 'mentors' (also documented)
in his "Dreams" book, he specifically talks of carrying on his father's dream of wealth re-distribution. how you can openly deny these basic facts is disturbing to say the least.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:48 AM
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reply to post by Honor93
 


Urban Legends - Obama

New York Times - Obama is not a Socialist

So not only is Obama not a Muslim, he is not even a socialist. That is one step below communist. Plus, I don't think it would make any sense if he were a communist member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

I would suggest taking the time to consider where you get your news, and what motives they might have to be lying to you.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:53 AM
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Originally posted by darkbake


Her philosophy is that greed and self interest should be championed, not frowned upon.
i firmly disagree.


Well, you're wrong. That is her philosophy.



Ethical egoism (also called simply egoism) is the normative ethical position that moral agents ought to do what is in their own self-interest.


Wikipedia

While I do agree somewhat with this, I don't think that getting rid of taxes is in anyone's best interest.

In addition, Ayn Rand tends to completely oversimplify and misunderstand what would be in someone's best interest. What we call "altruism" actually makes a society that benefits everyone more than if they were out for themselves. She can't even follow her own philosophy's core tenet.

So in a way, you are right - her philosophy is about being a complete idiot and ending up in a society where you harm yourself because of your actions; it isn't about self-interest at all.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)
what's the problem darkbake ??
is there some reason you're quoting me but not "Reply"ing to me ??

it's only by chance i even saw these posts but i'd presume you were hoping they wouldn't draw a response


got any links to prove your 'claims' ??
Ayn escaped a communist/socialist structure ... she is not encouraging one.

i happen to agree that self interest should be championed rather manipulated.
what's wrong with that ? we are individuals, aren't we ?

i disagree with your assumption about greed. she comments about how it is intertwined in the collective and serves as a greater barrier than anything. how is that championing greed ?

i never said i agree with all of her philosophies ... i don't.
but, this is one book and a good one at that ... and, it parallels both times in history, then and now.

how does an outsider know what is in anyone's "best interest" ??
why do you presume ppl can't decide for themselves what is in their best interest ??


her philosophy is about being a complete idiot and ending up in a society where you harm yourself because of your actions
this is so far off base that i seriously doubt you ever read a page of it.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 02:55 AM
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reply to post by darkbake
 

i have a question for you, if acting in or acknowledging self-interest is a bad thing ... how would ppl ever develop the skills which they possess ?

without self-interest, why would anyone put forth the extra effort to improve themselves ?
why bother ?



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by Honor93
 


Urban Legends - Obama

New York Times - Obama is not a Socialist

So not only is Obama not a Muslim, he is not even a socialist. That is one step below communist. Plus, I don't think it would make any sense if he were a communist member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

I would suggest taking the time to consider where you get your news, and what motives they might have to be lying to you.
unlike you, i use historical sources ... like these
www.amazon.com...
www.scribd.com...
worldnews.nbcnews.com... {muslims do not sponsor the education of non-muslims and especially not then}
www.voltairenet.org...
usatoday30.usatoday.com...

need more ??



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 04:04 AM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by Thepump
 


In her book "the producers" virtually leave society because they are stifled.
yes, now please descibe how being stifled is competetive in any manner.


Atlas Shrugged is a book - it is fiction, I do not believe that it represents our current position.

Can you provide examples where power brokers and producers quit participating in society???
No, because it is a book.



huh ??
options are options ONLY when an opt-out exists.
otherwise it isn't an option.


You can opt out, go for for it, whats preventing you?

But I guess if you opt out, you expect everyone else to pay for you medical care should you be unable to
manage it yourself?

What is it with you Republican types? The Mandate is taylor made for "personal responsibility" conservatives.


i firmly disagree.


And you firmly don't understand Ayn Rand 1 bit - It is scary to think that you cannot even understand
what you are talking about or advocating for.

Rand published a book called the "Virtues of Selfishness"





and this isn't possible and here's why.
self interest cannot be demonstrated by a company or corporation.
it is always a collective interest ... NEVER self interest.




Rand would disagree and tell you, you are full of crap.

Rand would say everyone is an individual motivation by selfish desires. I am not sure why I am even
bothering to talk with you, you are clueless on your Ayn Rand, absolutely lost in the bushes...



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 04:12 AM
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I think I am going to re-read that book. It has been several years. I have always felt that our US values, being based on individualism, are attempting to manifest the principles Rand upheld, and that , as an experiment, this will allow us to see in action exactly where the holes in her logic are ; because I think there are some. Some BIG ones.
As those become clear, we can maybe put her extremist theory to rest?

The USSR allowed us to see the problems in Communism as you try to translate theory into practice, and the US will serve the same purpose in seeing the problems in Capitalism in reality.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 04:58 AM
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Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by TDawgRex
 


"Mankind requires competition to survive."

Bull#. Certain people have an issue with needing to compete. Competition is not necessary to survive.

Cooperation gets the job done.


You got that right



We need cooperation not competition.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 06:21 AM
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Our problems are growing exponentially because they are being ignored, as we continue to increase our activity, that caused the problems in the first place. We are starting to realize just how poor our leaders are and that they are motivated by all of the wrong reasons. Creating problems is relatively easy but solving them is much more complex. We are so at odds with nature, that the planet must die or we must die. Universe has sided with the planet because it is doing everything it can to preserve life. This is why global catastrophes are necessary, to purge the planet and bring a new start. What we have today, is not salvageable.
Atlas shrugged was similar to what we are experiencing today because the incompetents took charge and brought about disaster. The video below is what we will be going through, starting March-April 2013. Watch it to the end.

www.youtube.com...



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 06:22 AM
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Whatever Ayn Rand says is bad, I will take in a heart beat.

I haven't read Atlas Shrugged in full but I imagine the warnings in it are something I would actively encourage



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by Honor93
 


So Obama's dad became an intellectual and returned to Africa to help his people, according to your first link?

And Obama's father was a socialist, not a communist, according to your second link?




The first part of the paper deals with wide topics such as the objectives of societies. The paper states that there are universal desires of societies and these include political equality, social justice, human dignity and freedom of conscience, freedom from water diseases and exploitation, equal opportunities and, lastly, a high and growing per capita income and equitable distribution


That's what his father believes in, according to your second source.

Your third source is highly speculative, yes, it shows Obama's dad moved from Kenya to study in Hawaii... but it says this:



Colonial administrators in Nairobi claimed that Kenyans who studied abroad were “academically inferior” to those who studied in Africa. They also criticized the African American Students Foundation – supported by actor Sydney Poitier and baseball star Jackie Robinson – which gave Obama a grant to study.


But according to your fourth source, Obama's dad was actually airlifted out of Africa by the C.I.A. to study in America in order to return there and disrupt communist influences.



The first part of his report highlights the connections between Barack Obama, Sr. and the CIA-sponsored operations in Kenya to counter rising Soviet and Chinese influence among student circles


This would make Obama's dad an anti-communist who came to study in the U.S. and return to Kenya in order to help his people, while simultaneously aiding the U.S. and the C.I.A. in its fight against communism. Thanks for the background.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by darkbake
 

i have a question for you, if acting in or acknowledging self-interest is a bad thing ... how would ppl ever develop the skills which they possess ?

without self-interest, why would anyone put forth the extra effort to improve themselves ?
why bother ?


I don't think that self-interest is a bad thing. I just think that it is in everyone's self-interest to live in a civilized society. My view of self-interest happens to be more advanced than Ayn Rands, who over-simplifies it.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 09:59 AM
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Originally posted by Honor93
is there some reason you're quoting me but not "Reply"ing to me ??

it's only by chance i even saw these posts but i'd presume you were hoping they wouldn't draw a response


got any links to prove your 'claims' ??
Ayn escaped a communist/socialist structure ... she is not encouraging one.

i happen to agree that self interest should be championed rather manipulated.
what's wrong with that ? we are individuals, aren't we ?

i disagree with your assumption about greed. she comments about how it is intertwined in the collective and serves as a greater barrier than anything. how is that championing greed ?

i never said i agree with all of her philosophies ... i don't.
but, this is one book and a good one at that ... and, it parallels both times in history, then and now.

how does an outsider know what is in anyone's "best interest" ??
why do you presume ppl can't decide for themselves what is in their best interest ??



All right. Let's take this from the top, as I agree with some of the things you are saying in this instance. No, there is no ulterior motive to me quoting you instead of replying to you. I didn't know that didn't notify you. Yes, a response is definitely appreciated.

We are individuals, and a pure capitalist society without regulation would allow for a few people to get power... power over other individuals, keeping them from pursuing their self-interest. You and I would very likely end up in this second category.

On the other extreme, the communists acted in their self-interest as workers and overthrew the bourgeois. In fact, most of Marx' criticism is of the middle-class.

Both extremes are bad, in fact, one extreme produced the other (which makes sense). I agree with you, we need to live in a society where people can pursue what is in their best interest. But the answer to that is not a society owned by a few capitalist elite.

I do agree with you that her book is a good one. And I also happen to completely agree with you that it resonates with this year very well.
edit on 30-11-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)





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