Originally posted by Brighter
If I could make a suggestion, I'd recommend taking a course in symbolic logic or critical thinking at the college level, if that's possible. Please don't take this as condescending, but it's very difficult to have a clear conversation with you, although it seems like you could have some interesting things to say. You just need to be able to express your ideas more clearly, and to be able to assess someone else's views and pick up on some finer points with more accuracy.

No, I don't find your suggestion condescending at all and have no reason to. I know the perception that people have towards believers of the UFO phenomenon. So, I fully expect this type of response and understand the assertions that you feel the need to try and make. No offense taken.

Please tell me where I said that I thought there was evidence of alien involvement.

My comments were related to UFOs, and not aliens.

After re-reading my post, partially saying: "After decades and possibly centuries of sightings, not one ounce of evidence has shown us it's a real phenomenon...........". I see the confusion of UFOs and alien involvement. I just took it for granted it was implied because of our discussion back and forth has been about Hynek's hypothesis of alien involvement with UFOs, not UFO themselves. If you look back over my posts, I haven't been questioning the phenomenon of people sighting UFOs. Just the hypothesis of alien involvement.

Most "skeptics" have enormous difficulty thinking clearly and distinguishing between the two issues, which would be ironic for anyone pretending to agree with Hynek's differentiation between the two.

It's understandable why you would think so and need to make the point of it. As I stated above, the issue I've had from the beginning wasn't to sightings of UFOs, but, what's piloting "them". Obviously two issues.

As to your quotes by Tyson, Hawking and Sagan, did you read the original post of this thread? (I'm asking this in earnest.) What makes you think that training in science and mathematics are skills directly relevant to assessments in a separate field? Would you be happy with hiring your personal tax professional to offer you marital advice? Again, you're making the precise kind of erroneous assumption that was pointed out in the original post of this very thread.

Again, if you read my posts in this thread, you'll understand one of the main points is, by the way of being a scientist, Hynek supporting a hypothesis doesn't make that hypothesis any more of a plausible hypothesis. I think that speaks for itself and I don't need to interpret that into how I feel about supporting of a belief by a scientist or anyone. My quoting of those scientists were to your reply of: "And it seems you yourself don't have much of any evidence to support that value judgment. In fact, there are very accomplished scientists that would disagree with you."

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
...one of the main points is, by the way of being a scientist, Hynek supporting a hypothesis doesn't make that hypothesis any more of a plausible hypothesis.

I don't think that the weight of Hynek's opinion on this subject rests on his being a scientist but rather on his experience and intimacy with the pertinent data. Being highly intelligent, clear-thinking and articulate certainly helps, but without the requisite level of familiarity with the particular topic in question he would be just another know-nothing know-it-all like Hawking.

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by milomilo
the EDH is really just a scienctific sounding word they choose to describe paranormal phenomena like apparitions, poltergeist, abductions, UFO.

its what hynek n vallee see when they check for pattern in the UFO case database. these patterns along with the hih strangeness of UFO encounters lead them to dismiss ETH.

now justifying EDH is harder than ETH , especially to science minded people of western world. and you cannot explain paranormal stuffs with material/physical science.

if UFO researchers are only allowing physical / material science to explain UFO then they will be lead into ETH and nutsnbolt UFO hypothesis. Vallee said that modern US UFO researxh are evolving int a belief system of ETH/conspicary/roswell/dulce and they are not doing investigative field works anymore. in other words their mind already closed. These researchers also dismiss cases that got high strangeness / poltergeist / apparition / paranormal aspects. they focus on legends and word of mouth instead interviewing witnesses and doing field works, they focus on crashed UFOs, dead aliens, MJ12, dulce, goverment/CIA conspiracy..

It seems like you've highlighted the real reason Western scientists won't do their homework on UFOs - scientific/materialist philosophy.

I wonder if scientists in non-Western countries have a different attitude towards ufology?

in Java , rich in mythology and paranormal stuff, every scientist know and believe that there's non scienctific stuff happening that cannot be explained wi western science..off course they wont say it in the company of their peers, but they know some people can do things that cannot be explained by science.. when you born are raised in society that accept such things as normal, you will understand these..

its common and easy here to just go to witchdoctor and use his service to attack your competitor, woo the girl you love, ask for riches, ask for protection, ask for power, and the crazy thing is that everyone who did at KNOW something bad will happen to him or his familiy in exchange.

this border on ridiculous for westerner, but here its different.. just as people here think western atheism is ridiculous...

Now why i said all these in UFO discussion? because these phenomena that western people think an alien or flying saucer, they already exist here since i dont know when.. Noctural Lights? little people with strange face, gigantic humanoid with fur all over the body ? they are here allright, we just call them SPIRITS and GHOSTS..

the UFO thingy are just another MASK over the real face of these entites.. and there wont be any disclosure unless these entities allow it.. And they will, in the near future

I've read every book, report, and documentation I could reasonably get my hands on as a layperson of limited means for more just over 20 years now. I have to agree that there is nothing more important someone can do before delving into this subject matter, than to take substantial time and effort to cover what has already been covered, with a fresh, skeptical, open mind.

Having done that since my adolescence, and then having repeated it once older to ensure my younger, more naive self didn't miss anything or draw incorrect conclusions, I feel fairly comfortable forming a limited opinion of the UFO and alleged contact phenomenon. And that is as follows.

Since at least the late 1940s, there have been credible, unexplainable sightings of flying objects in the skies over North America and other parts of the world.

At various points by and during the early and mid-1950s the CIA, Air Force, FBI, and numerous other national security and intelligence agencies, all had separate reports and internal memos of their own concluding that at least a small percentage of UFO encounters were reported by creditable observers, were supported by physical evidence such as radar tracks (corroborated by visual confirmation,) and which in some cases consisted of metallic looking, disc and/or cigar shaped, highly reflective, physically real objects which appeared to be intelligently controlled, and displaying speed and maneuverability well beyond anything possessed (or at least acknowledged) by any Earthly military on the planet at the time, often vanishing, speeding away, or rapidly climbing out of sight when interception was attempted... which it frequently was.

Despite this, and despite there at the time being continuing investigations and studies of the phenomenon by various other bodies and agencies, near the end of the Truman administration the CIA determined that continuing public interest in and reporting of UFOs constituted a potential national security threat - ostensibly due to possible mass hysteria and the flooding of communications and intel channels. Thus the CIA established a cursory, four day review of the available evidence by prominent scientists with ties to the military establishment (the Robertson panel,) after which the NSA mandated that unexplained cases like those described in the above mentioned reports and memos should not be discussed with the public or and press, and perhaps most tellingly, that ONLY those cases which could be explained as mundane or the result of hoaxes and psychological issues should be publicized. In various forms, that policy has been in effect ever since, despite periods of renewed (or at least feigned) interest in being more forthcoming with the public. (For a time, it was even a crime punishable by imprisonment or fine to release UFO sighting data to the public and press, despite the study and investigation thereof continuing in earnest behind closed doors.)

Meanwhile, good, credible, military encounters with these objects continued unabated, with the same evidence based support as the above mentioned instances. These were studied, despite official claims to the contrary, with at least moderate interest and official sanction, while the public faces of the official investigations into such matters such as Blue Book and later other bodies, were kept out of the loop or told by their superiors to reduce the number of "unknowns" by cooking the statistics. (This is why credible, rigorous investigators like Ruppelt left eventually.)

There is as yet no definitive proof that these objects are the product of extraterrestrial visitors, however it can be argued that some evidence exists to support the hypothesis at least, in the event that no Earthly agency or force has secretly created them unbeknownst to us. There is as yet no proof that these objects are the products of American or Russian black projects either, with the possible (probable?) exception of later craft such as Aurora and other similar hypersonic scramjet vehicles, as well as potentially so-called "stealth blimps." If the remaining unexplained and highly credible sightings and encounters are black military projects by either Russia or America, then they are so highly secreted and compartmentalized, that even the upper echelons of the defense and intelligence establishments have frequently been kept out of the loop, as evidenced by their own considerable efforts to investigate the "UFO problem" over the decades,both publicly and covertly.

(Continued...)

One thing that is important people are not doing their homework about 1964 and it's relation to mars!

Originally posted by thetiler
One thing that is important people are not doing their homework about 1964 and it's relation to mars!

Really? Perhaps you could explain what you mean a little, rather than being so cryptic? Im not saying theres nothing to it, rather, could you be a bit more specific?

Originally posted by AceWombat04
CONCLUSION: We cannot conclude much about the ultimate reality of the phenomenon, its source, or the government and military's true position or knowledge thereof. All I can state with comfortable certainty is that it is credibly and physically REAL in a small percentage of UFO sighting cases, remains unexplained to a satisfactory degree with regard to the alleged abduction phenomenon (this facet of the subject remains much less supported by evidence to date and must be treated with great caution in my view,) and the true extent and depth of governmental/military knowledge pertaining to it - however great or inconsequential - has not been fully revealed to the people, and has been frequently concealed intentionally.

great post AceWombat04.. i agree with your conclusion.

if i may add to that excellent conclusion, i think the phenomena itself are doing this on purpose. i mean they are manifesting to certain people but never to the point that they can be proven without a doubt.

witness the contactee phenomena , good example is adamski, who i believe is a real contactee, that got 'played' by the phenomena and come out looking like a hoaxer and a fool.. Too many example of contactee phenomena in CE cases where they are used initially to spread some kind of message and then discarded into humiliation and obscurity.

as for your whole post, i disagree with the US centric view of these phenomena, as the incidents outside US are more numerous and more strange. The oft-spoken US centric distill the whole phenomena into a too small scope and thus the whole fairytale of roswell, crashed saucers, dead aliens, underground bases are born.

And the US Military certainly dont have operational disc shaped crafts (experimental maybe but not operational), and they will never test any experimental craft outside limited US test range. Look at the history of F-117, they even use A7 as cover for operational F-117 squadron in tonopah. You can see the US military secrecy implemented in F117 programme , from HaveBlue to Operational F117. Guarded Hangars, Secret takeoff at night only, cover within cover, remote location base etc.

and its been documented that US military and CIA used 'UFO sighting' to explain their experimental crafts and spy plane operations (U2, SR71). if i recall correctly, the USSR also used UFO Excuse to hide their missile/rocket launch back then.

I'm game for a choir.

I will tell you what I feel (again my personal opinion), also following many years of perusal through various case reports and sightings along with some knowledge of physics.

I think there are physical craft which have been observing us or at least present in our skies, from the 1940s and perhaps earlier.

I surmise that these visitors were somehow attracted or at least immensely increased their activity following the atom bomb tests. They are also interested in missile and space program development , war zones and perhaps nuclear power stations. Sometimes they are observed around water too.

UFOs are often observed at night, there are probably two major reasons for this. One is simply misidentification of everyday objects due to distance and lack of light. The other is that the field that helps move the UFO also creates ionisation of the air, as the field strength increases or decreases, the ionisation energy increases and decreases and the colours therefore vary as different molecules in the air become ionised. This of course would also account for the glow or light that has been mentioned in daylight aswell.

Apart from that they also seem to favour remote places for landing and avoid exposure as much as possible.

They exhibit intelligent control with ability to sense when they are being observed and very probably to influence our thoughts and actions from a distance. This may account for the many many accounts whereby a UFO witness is just as perplexed by the other witnesses reaction to the UFO as to the UFO itself!

The phenomena of missing time may be a result of this memory interference as a deliberate measure. However it may also be a result of space-time distortion in the local area of the UFO, as the field which the UFO depends on (which acts to give the UFO zero gravity and ability to move at will and at incredible speeds) could also influence any objects in the vicinity of that field. Both of these possible causes are probably responsible for the confusion that people who encounter UFOs often report. Hypnosis is a discredited method of revealing information as it is highly susceptible to implanting false memories (look up the famous child abuse false memory scandal in the US). Also memories themselves are not stable and can be reformed over time, that is why the first report of any UFO encounter should be the prime reference, later recounting along with intereference from hypnotists/others can result in stories changing markedly.

I don't believe in the abduction phenomenon and I think it is a modern day fable mostly influenced by movies and authors such as Whitley Strieber and others. The original abduction reports started off with the aliens as being very humanlike (billy meier) and now the aliens are grey like beings.

The UFOs themselves are most likely some type of intelligent machines with no biological component involved (essentially artificially intelligent drones) either extra-terrestrial in nature or some type of 'future tourists', coming back to observe interesting moments in history or even to find out more about their ancestors , who knows?
Reports of biological entities involved with UFOs are very rare and I think they are not real to be honest.

Many types of UFO shapes have been observed, with disks, cigars, spheres and triangles all being commonplace. Since UFOs seem to depend on a field rather than aerodynamic lift this makes perfect sense. There have also been reports of them coming out of 'mother ship' craft and perhaps acting as probes.

I also believe UFOs may be more common around us than we suspect and that they simply camoflauge themselves from visual and radar detection (it would only require technology 50-100 years ahead of where are now), the rare instances that we observe them they may be damaged , involved in some type of action which requires them to turn off their camoflauge briefly, or simply did not initially detect any observers due to over confidence or some error.

I don't believe governments are hiding anything substantial about UFOs, rather they are more concerned that their experimental craft will be discovered or that enemy forces are entering their airspace.

I think many popular topics of UFOlogy are horse emissions, MJ12, Roswell, Area 51...they helped to sell books but there is not much to them when you look into it..MJ12 are fake documents and Roswell is almost certainly some type of botched government cover story of a secret high altitude baloon program. Area 51 is a base for testing secret experimental aircraft, nothing more.

I also think that there have been distinct waves of UFO visitors (1964/1965/1969/1973) , the peak of UFO activity was definitely in the 1950s and 1960s and I don't think that this is due to media, there are still many reports coming in to this day of baby boomers who are only admitting to UFO sightings that date back to that period. Modern day sightings of close-up day light UFOs are rare indeed. What is the reason for this? I can only surmise that they have become more careful as our technological ability to detect and record them improved.

I don't believe in the abduction phenomenon and I think it is a modern day fable mostly influenced by movies and authors such as Whitley Strieber and others. The original abduction reports started off with the aliens as being very humanlike (billy meier) and now the aliens are grey like beings.

Just curious if you yourself have ever encountered a ufo up close?


Bill

His most applicable statement might be:

Finally, bear in mind that although most scientists treat this subject as a joke, the public does not, and we would do well to treat their concerns with respect.

Get that?

THE PUBLIC DOES NOT

The few who do (treat it as a joke) should be at best marginalized.