Gay 'Conversion Therapy' Faces Test in Courts

*snip*

And what fight is that? The fight for equality for all? The fight for gays to feel they are just as valuable in our society as anyone else, so they don't feel pressured to change how they were born to be? The real trolls are the religious fundamentalists who use their Bible as a crutch for their hatred of others. The real trolls are the ones who try to convince gays that there is something wrong with them. These stupid conversion therapy places wouldn't even be in existence if we could get rid of the real trolls.


Mod edit: Removed quote of actioned post..

The former clients said they were emotionally scarred by false promises of inner transformation and humiliating techniques that included stripping naked in front of the counselor and beating effigies of their mothers.

Sounds like they are programing future serial killers.
Who's running this program? Norman Bates?

- Lee

Originally posted by kaylaluv

Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You may want to leave it Slayer. She is trolling yet again, looking to pick a fight where it does not belong.
2nd
Quad

y

And what fight is that? The fight for equality for all? The fight for gays to feel they are just as valuable in our society as anyone else, so they don't feel pressured to change how they were born to be? The real trolls are the religious fundamentalists who use their Bible as a crutch for their hatred of others. The real trolls are the ones who try to convince gays that there is something wrong with them. These stupid conversion therapy places wouldn't even be in existence if we could get rid of the real trolls.

That is exactly the fight I was referring to.
If you would like to debate the "injustices" done to the gay community, fine. Start a thread about it and we can discuss it.
This thread, however, is about 4 suckers who lost their money and are looking to get it back.
Quad

Anyone who thinks this is only about 4 guys - - - is choosing to wear blinders.

For one thing they are being represented by the SPLC (Southern Poverty Law Center). You know the law group that created and maintains an official hate list for anti-gay groups.

Those who actually follow LGBT issues - - know the depth and extent of the Reparative Therapy issue/controversy.

Gays are not broken. They do not need to be fixed.

SPLC Files First-Ever Consumer Fraud Suit Against An Ex-Gay Group

By Zack Ford on Nov 27, 2012

The Southern Poverty Law Center has filed a first-of-its-kind lawsuit against ex-gay group JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives for Healing), accusing it of consumer fraud for peddling a “cure” for homosexuality. The complaint features four young men and two of their parents as plaintiffs, including Chaim Levin, who has been very vocal about how the Orthodox Jewish community has mistreated him for being gay. The men and their families argue that JONAH lured them into paying for counseling with deceptive practices. JONAH relies on ex-gay professional group NARTH, specifically the repudiated techniques of Joseph Nicolosi.

thinkprogress.org...

OH! And here is a lovely video of Dr. Joseph Nicolosi - - founder of NARTH - - National Association for Research & Therapy (changed from Treatment) of Homosexuality.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Quadrivium


Taken straight from the OP's link:

Since the 1970s, when mainstream mental health associations stopped branding homosexuality as a disorder, a small network of renegade therapists, conservative religious leaders and self-identified “life coaches” has continued to argue that it is not inborn, but an aberration rooted in childhood trauma. Homosexuality is caused, these therapists say, by a stifling of normal masculine development, often by distant fathers and overbearing mothers or by early sexual abuse.

An industry of “reparative therapy” clinics and men’s weekend retreats has drawn thousands of teenagers and adults who hope to rid themselves of homosexual urges, whether because of religious beliefs or family pressures.

Discussing the reason why these men felt pressured to go to conversion therapy is ON TOPIC.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Taken straight from the OP's link:

Since the 1970s, when mainstream mental health associations stopped branding homosexuality as a disorder, a small network of renegade therapists, conservative religious leaders and self-identified “life coaches” has continued to argue that it is not inborn, but an aberration rooted in childhood trauma. Homosexuality is caused, these therapists say, by a stifling of normal masculine development, often by distant fathers and overbearing mothers or by early sexual abuse.

An industry of “reparative therapy” clinics and men’s weekend retreats has drawn thousands of teenagers and adults who hope to rid themselves of homosexual urges, whether because of religious beliefs or family pressures.

Discussing the reason why these men felt pressured to go to conversion therapy is ON TOPIC.

Does the article state what lead THESE four men to look for help OR are you assuming it was because of religious pressures??
As I said, start your own thread, we will research and debate it if you would like.
She was trolling and looking for a fight where it did not belong. As I said, this article is about four suckers who want their money back.
The part of the article that you quoted only says that MANY search out such help whether it is because of religious or family pressures. There is nothing about why THESE four looked for help, only one small part about one of them being molested as a child.
Stop trolling, start a thread and send me a link,
Quad

Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

You may want to leave it Slayer. She is trolling yet again, looking to pick a fight where it does not belong.
2nd
Quad

I didn't realize there was a fight to be made. I'm still trying to figure out how anything I've posted warranted that sort of retort? Apparently, simply providing ones perspective on this story opens a quagmire of latent resentments in others.

For the record:

I have no issues with gay people. That's their right as human beings.
I have no issues with people seeking therapy. If they so choose for whatever reason.
I have no issues with a fool being separated from their money. As I stated earlier "Caveat Emptor"

&

I have no issues with people making quick retorts to my replies. I would request however that they actually consider what was written instead of using it as some sort of half ass soap box platform to spread their version of morality.

Sheldon Bruck is an Orthodox Jew.

Here is a paragraph from his blog. This is just before his depression was so bad - - he searched for help and found JONAH. He was in 10th grade. A teenager.

I highly suggest reading the entire blog.

it all started in 8th grade. When everyone else started developing feelings towards girls, I didn't. Instead I started developing feelings towards boys. For year I told myself that I was giving into the teasing I endured most of my life, but I knew deep down that wasn't true. I tried convincing myself I was bisexual. I tried convincing myself that I may like boys sexually, but love girls emotionally. It basically felt as if I was falling from a tall cliff and I tried grabbing onto whatever "excuse branch" I could. I poured my heart out in prayer in 10th grade. MyShemona Esrei took as long as 15 minutes, 3-times-per-day. I begged God to forgive me for me "making myself gay." I truly believed I brought it upon myself. I cried every night in my room with my head on the ground apologizing for "making myself an abomination." I truly thought God hated me for what "I did to myself".

testimony.couragecampaign.org...

reply to post by SLAYER69

I'm still trying to figure out how anything I've posted warranted that sort of retort?

It didn't, that's why I said it would probably be best to leave it alone. It is my opinion she was trolling

I could not agree more with the rest of your post.
What I read was that these four lost their money because of choices they made. The article did not give hardly any information on why these four were looking for a "cure".
Many are just as guilty of pointing their fingers and assigning blame as those they accuse it of.
I do not believe the retort was warranted and the article was used as a way to yet again bash those, who some feel, are the real problem.
Quad

I try not to get preachy around here. Yes, I like to throw my two cents out there, and sometimes I do get pi$$ed at some people's attitudes and I comment, but for the most part, I try my best to contribute something positive and/or reasonably logical to a given topic/thread.

Such is the case here. This topic is near and dear to my heart as I'm a member of the LGBT community, and I have gone/am going through therapy. Not the whacko therapy mentioned in the OP, just regular cognitive behavioral therapy. In fact I have considered becoming a therapist myself, and I have worked in the mental health sector in the past. In giving my opinion here, I'm going to make an assumption, and I think it's a reasonable one; based on what I have seen in the posts so far, I don't think anyone who has commented so far identifies as LGBT. If you do, then fine, you haven't stated so publically, and there's certainly no need for you to out yourself here. I have stated in previous posts that I'm part of the LGBT community, so I'm not busting out with anything new here. Just giving some context.
Within this context then, I think that I'm well qualified to comment on the topic ( not that the rest of you aren't - you most definitely are by virtue of being part of the community of ATS ). This doesn't make me an expert or an authority on the subject, and it doesn't mean that my opinion should matter more than anyone else's.
I'm just saying that direct experience should count for something that may ( or may not ) be missing from people's perspectives who are looking from the "outside" "in" on this one. I think that's a fair statement.

Ok, first of all, it's tough to want to be a "normal" "well-adjusted" member of society and yet to know from an early age that you are somehow "different" from "most" people. You see everyone else going about their business, having successful relationships, starting successful careers, seamlessly fitting into the social arena, while you kind of stand on the sidelines and marvel, "How do they do that?". You are somehow "out of step" with everyone else, and yet, you can't quite put your finger on why.

I grew up in the Midwest...hunting, shooting guns for sport, riding motorcycles, doing all of the "normal" "manly" things that were socially expected of me. I got married at an early age, and had a beautiful daughter from that marriage. But as soon as I had an epiphany about who and what I truly am, then my inner world began to crumble, from the inside out - psychologically, spiritually, socially ( yes, old friends dropped me and made fun of me behind my back when I finally did come out ) - suddenly my whole identity was uncertain, and I turned into a mystery - most of all - to myself. This state of being led to quite a bit of time where I felt desperate, and I did desperate things in order to try to forge an identity. I did all of the usual things, substance abuse, partcipated in risky behaviors...I was just trying to bury my head in the sand and avoid having to truly come to terms with myself and deal with my issues. I tried therapy a couple of times, but I was still abusing substances, so this didn't really help. I tried meditation. Long story boring, I was lost. For a long time.

Now I'm sober, and I've been in therapy for 2 years, and I'm healthier than I've ever been. I moved to California all alone just to be in a place where I could "feel like" I fit in and wouldn't be discriminated against. Where I could be myself without fear -psychologically, spirtually, and socially.
I finally came out to my mom last year. My dad died earlier this year, and I felt I could never come out to him, and he never knew. I know he would have rejected me and judged me, and I kept it a secret from him in order to save HIM from the pain of having to process it. I have a friend that has been in my life since I was 3. I just told him last year, and he was cool about it, and I wasn't treated any differently. I'm 47 years old now. It has taken me all of this time, indeed my whole adult life to get to the healthy place where I am now. Sometimes I grieve for the lost time and opportunities, but most times I'm just thankful to be where I am NOW.

To be honest, that's a lot more personal than I ever intended to get here.
However, this illustrated my point;
I know why desperate people do desperate things in order to try to "fit in" and be "normal".
To me, it's obvious, and I feel for those men who undertook that route to attempting to adjust and experience self-acceptance.

All that being said, I want to finish with this -

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Jiddu Krishnamurti

Originally posted by moonzoo7


I know why desperate people do desperate things in order to try to "fit in" and be "normal".
To me, it's obvious, and I feel for those men who undertook that route to attempting to adjust and experience self-acceptance.

All that being said, I want to finish with this -

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Jiddu Krishnamurti

Thanks for the open and honest post. This is the point I was trying to make. These conversion therapy places try to capitalize on the desperation of people who are told they are not "normal". Obviously, these places should be shut down and not allowed to operate, and there should be retribution for the victims. Any healthcare practice that is acting fraudulently and causing harm on top of that should be shut down. That is without question. The bigger issue here is why these people are so desperate. If they were loved and respected for who they are by their friends, churches, families and communities, they would not be desperate. If being gay was considered no worse than being left-handed, or being a natural red-head, there would be no desperation.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

The world is a strange place indeed, I have always marveled at the things people tend to believe and tend to want to believe. The whole article is one big WTF, I would question the sanity of the patients as well as the dopy people who came out with this conversion therapy scam. I understand the why all this happened and that they really thought they could change, and wanted to change so badly they they actually believed such practices would have any effect on anything. But If you really think about it, who really is at fault here as one group was merely just feeding of the other. Besides have they not learned or got it yet, homosexuality is as normal and heterosexuality, in fact there is a great possibility that as the line blurs and time marches on it will become much more so, eventually it will reach a point were everything in relation to how we go about doing things in relation to males and female relationships will change drastically and our world really has a possibility of spiting down the middle on that subject. And really there is nothing they can do about it.

reply to post by kaylaluv


Thank you. I simply felt that in this case I did have something to offer that is directly relevant. I really didn't set out to tell my life's story per se', and I almost deleted the post as written. It's uncomfortable to be that open in a place like this, however, as I thought about it, I realized that perhaps a genuine personal account would drive the point home without trying to call anyone in particular out for their opinions.
You can argue all day about anything, but when the rubber meets the road and you LIVE it, then it's a whole different deal, and it's not some abstract philosophical topic. In that regard, I was surprised to see someone try to frame the discussion within certain parameters ( their parameters, of course ), and thereby take control of and / or steer the topic.

These people were desperate, and in a personal state of crisis, and therefore vulnerable. They sought help from people who claimed to be "professionals" who touted a "cure" that would end their "suffering".
Yeah, it's fraud, it's unethical, it's driven not by scientific or psychologically accepted standards, but by religion and discrimination. They should be put out of business and have their arses sued off.
And yes, this should be legislated. Many other areas of medical and psychological treatments are legislated based on universally acceptable practices, and this is no different.

Originally posted by moonzoo7
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Thank you. I simply felt that in this case I did have something to offer that is directly relevant. I really didn't set out to tell my life's story per se', and I almost deleted the post as written. It's uncomfortable to be that open in a place like this, however, as I thought about it, I realized that perhaps a genuine personal account would drive the point home without trying to call anyone in particular out for their opinions.

I want to thank you too. And thank you for not deleting your post.

I am not LGBT - but 20+ years ago I worked for a company where I was the minority being straight. I loved my co-workers. And ever since then I've continued to inform - support - - and fight for Equality.

I know and experienced a bit of prejudice and non-acceptance when my mom became a polio victim in the '52 epidemic. We were denied entrance to restaurants and other businesses solely on the fact she was disabled. She had to fight for other rights as well - - such as the right to drive and car insurance.

Being that I am 66 - - I was also part of the Women's Rights movement. And experience inequality because of gender.

Keep speaking out.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
I understand the why all this happened and that they really thought they could change, and wanted to change so badly they they actually believed such practices would have any effect on anything.

Besides have they not learned or got it yet, homosexuality is as normal and heterosexuality, . .

You do realize this acceptance of homosexuality has only really happened in the last few years.

And is still unacceptable in very religious communities - - - such as Orthodox Jews and Fundamental Christians.

Awareness is working - - - but there is still a long road ahead.

It wasnt that long ago that BYU was making "gay lists" and enforcing church sanctioned "anti gay therapy" which included electrodes on genitals and medications. They still are.. yet are a little more discreet concerning it. Sick stuff.. all done under the umbrella of religion. One of the highest homeless teen populations is in Salt Lake.. guess why? If youre a mormon and your kid is gay.. you chuck them out. Bishops orders. Sort of like elders ( 12 apostles) orders to give all yoru money to fund prop 8 bs in Cali. One of the young men who was involved in this forced/coerced aversion therapy killed himself in the sanctuary... these kinds of "therapies" are no more than torturing someone because you dont like what they are doing. These men who suffered this were probably under intense social and familial pressure to "fix" themselves./ Repeat4ed failures.. as they are coerced and pressured into fixing something that isnt broken.

Buyer beware? Yeah, well they didnt buy the society of intolerance they have found themselves in.. and grasped at any chance to "fit in". Its a little deeper than buyer beware for Gods sake.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


They're here, they're queer - they better get used to it!

It took me a long time to accept my homosexuality - and it has caused me much grief. Mostly because of being raised Christian, and all the conflicts you can imagine come up with that. In the end, being gay is totally harmless and it is not sinful or bad. It might be "weird" to some people - but those people can go fly a kite!

To myself, some issues in the OP deserve a separate thread, such as "conversion therapies" for minors.
I think the evidence is that all these ex-gay therapies are ineffective, and a con for cash.

I'd say conversion therapies for minors would have to be narrowly defined to stay legal, and would have to reject techniques that amount to torture (like shocks or emetics).
However, I'm against outright prohibitions, especially if it's just a "talking cure".

My main concern is that a total ban in the US will lead to misguided parents sending their gay kids to camps in countries with no regard for human rights, and the growth of a completely uncontrolled industry in homophobic Third World countries.

As for the ex-gay ministries to adults: while I wish these men well, I'd say it depends whether one can prove they were truly ignorant of the risks and failures.

While it was once possible to sue the tobacco firms, the information on the dangers of smoking is now so vast that this is no longer possible.

I would regard the case as similar to the tobacco cases.
There are some differences.
The dangers of smoking are on every cigarette packet, and the warnings have been consistent and vast.
The dangers of religion or self-styled therapies are less distributed, however I'd still say they are reasonably distributed enough for these men to have had knowledge that such therapies are possibly complete poppycock.
If not, they will have to explain a pretty deprived and sheltered childhood to be convincing.

My actual belief is that they knew these therapies had critics (and were perhaps nonsense), but because of their chosen belief at the time, they chose one interpretation over another.

So a footnote to this case would be (if it should be successful) that one should reasonably interfere in certain beliefs, because they are so ridiculous that the person would change his mind at a later stage.

What is thus also on trial is the freedom for adults to choose certain beliefs and practices.

If one can reasonably assume that adults can read and have access to the press, then making decisions guided by religion can be reasonably called a voluntary choice.

Most religions offer programs similar to "therapies", however does that give ex-Scientologists, or ex-Benny Hinn fans (for example) the right to get back all their money when it doesn't work?

I'm sure former cultists have tried, but the cult simply says they had sin in their lives, or they didn't really have faith, and therefore it didn't work.

It might be another issue if the member was coerced, or made to do something against their will at the time.
This might be the case here, although I'm not sure.

What I'd rather see in such controversial therapies is a type of warning, similar to those on tobacco products, which would also point to some critical literature and websites.

However, if the group is religious (and doesn't use terms like "therapy", or any notion of science) then people should really learn to research what they choose to involve themselves with.

There are teachings on the topic in most religions, from ISKCON to Islam, and it's a bit silly to expect them all to be sued.

Then there's also a danger of reversing the argument.
A Christian convert could come and say he wants to sue a gay organization, because they told him he was gay (when he just felt confused), and now he's HIV-poz, and regards the advice he was given by gays as the cause of his condition.
It's a futuristic scenario, but I don't think it's impossible on the same basis.

Therefore I'd say adult choices are adult choices.
I'm not familiar with the specific allegations in this case, or what they want specifically.
However, many countries have libraries, the media, and the Internet nowadays.
Nobody can come and say: "I was ignorant of this group or that therapy".
Where would that end?

Adult people who join religious groups, cults and sects must grow up.
Yes, use that experience to educate others.
But don't expect your cash back.