The Palestinians' UN ploy is just the latest stalling tactic

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posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 10:08 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Here's a small portion of what I'm talking about.

Tanzimat...


Religious Freedom

The Reform Edict of 1856 was intended to carry out the promises of the Tanzimat. The Edict is very specific about the status of non-Muslims, making it possible "to see it as the outcome of a period of religious restlessness that followed the Edict of 1839."

Officially, part of Tanzimat was to make the state intolerable to forced conversion to Islam, and the execution of apostates from Islam was made illegal. Despite the official position of the state in the midst of Tanzimat reforms, this tolerance of non-Muslims seems to have been seriously curtailed, at least until the Reform Edict of 1856.

In fact, there was constant pressure on non-Muslims to convert to Islam, and the danger of execution for apostates remained real. Thus, Tanzimat, at least at first, failed to actively promote freedom to practice one's religion without harassment. In fact, for the "Ottoman ruling elite, 'freedom of religion' meant 'freedom to defend their religion.'"[7]

In Lebanon, the Tanzimat reforms were intended to return to the tradition of equality for all subjects before the law. However, the Sublime Porte assumed that the underlying hierarchical social order would remain unchanged. Instead, the upheavals of reform would allow for different understandings of the goals of Tanzimat. The elites in Mount Lebanon, in fact, interpreted the Tanzimat far differently from one another. As a result, "European and Ottoman officials engaged in a contest to win the loyalty of the local inhabitants — the French by claiming to protect the Maronites; the British, the Druze; and the Ottomans by proclaiming the sultan's benevolence toward all his religiously equal subjects."[8]

In Palestine, land reforms, especially the change in land ownership structure via the Ottoman Land Law of 1858, allowed Russian Jews to buy land in Palestine, thus enabling them to immigrate there under the first Aliya. In order to boost its tax base, the Ottomans required Arabs in Palestine, as elsewhere, to register their lands for the first time. Since many fellahin wished to avoid paying taxes to the ailing regime and also were illiterate, many local mukhtars were able to collectively register village lands under their own name. Thus, they were able to later claim ownership and to sell the local peasants' lands out from under their feet to the new Jewish immigrants, as they themselves relocated permanently to Syria or Turkey.[9]

In Armenia, the Armenian National Constitution (Turkish: "Nizâmnâme−i Millet−i Ermeniyân") of 1863 was approved by the Ottoman government. The "Code of Regulations" consisted of 150 articles drafted by the Armenian intelligentsia and defined the powers of the Armenian Patriarch under the Ottoman Millet System and the newly formed "Armenian National Assembly".[10]


en.wikipedia.org...




posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 10:15 PM
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Although this thread has very quickly turned into the "whos in the right" aspect of the conflict, I'd like to go back to the question of the vote for "observer status" at the UN.

Aside from annoying Israel, and thus the US, and thus the suckhole lackeys of Australia* etc who always side with whatever they do on such votes, what ACTUAL genuine reasons are there to deny the Palestinians an observer status?

All that posted news article does is say that its a waste of time delaying tactic, but nowhere have I yet seen why such an observer status is so horribly negative that it should be actively denied to them.




* yes, I'm well aware Julia didnt get her way this time.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


That was all after the revolt I mentioned.

The Ottomans, for nearly 300 years, had no trouble in the region prior to the aforementioned revolt.



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 01:40 AM
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reply to post by Spike Spiegle
 


OP in my opinion people like you are completely MORALLY BANKRUPT

you managed to convince few people here that you are objective.

To me it couldn't be more obvious that you are trying to excuse
Israeli and US attempts to destroy Palestinian bid in UN

You want Israel to have a state, and Palestinians to NOT have
a state, so that Israel can chip them away into non existence.

This is pure evil

take it from a Jew whos been to Israel,



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by JewAgainstZionism
 


Hello friend.

I will repeat myself gladly, I do not hate Israel , I do hate any nation on this earth.


This article is from a NEWSPAPER, I am neutral when it comes to this matter, my roommate is Jewish for the love of god.


So I am sorry if you feel like this.


SS
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posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 03:20 AM
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_______________________

Since israel does not want a two-state solution
nor Equal-human status between jews and
others; this leaves no other recorse but to have a
UN observer-ship state. israel has no one
else to blame but themselves.
(the editor in op story does not have a clue about the facts)

____________________



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by alfa1
 


Originally posted by alfa1
Aside from annoying Israel, and thus the US, and thus the suckhole lackeys of Australia* etc who always side with whatever they do on such votes, what ACTUAL genuine reasons are there to deny the Palestinians an observer status?

All that posted news article does is say that its a waste of time delaying tactic, but nowhere have I yet seen why such an observer status is so horribly negative that it should be actively denied to them.

I would like to echo this question, out of serious curiousity...

I mean, both sides (all sides?) agree that the eventual desired solution for peace in the Middle East involves a state for the Palestinians. This is a step in that direction.
So....? Why not? It seems rather silly, and makes it sound like they're annoyed they can't use recognition of Palestinian statehood as a bargaining chip.

So far, the reasons here seem to be:
TERRORISTS!
HAMAS!
IRAN!
They want to annihilate the Jews!
They should only be peace through negotiations with Israel.

Which don't make any sense at all, and imply that those people don't actually want a solution, and want to punish the all Palestinian people eternally for the deeds of a few, or that, as I said, annoyance that they can't use recognition of Palestinian statehood as a bargaining chip (which contradicts those who talk about the Palestinian side having pre-conditions while Israel has none).



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 06:01 AM
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See why this topic is so divisive, yet interesting?

On this page of the thread alone we have a Jew that doesn't understand the threat to the Jews and a Muslim who doesn't understand the extremist view of Islam!

I think the reason the rest of the world is in such a hurry to give Palestine non-member state observer status is because they don't understand the thoughts of the other countries in the region.

Maybe this will help to shed some light on it...

"Fact #9: Palestinians are treated differently than all other refugees"


From the start, the Palestinians were dealt with differently than all other refugees. While all others came under the administration of a series of global organizations that eventually became the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), the Palestinians received their own relief organization: the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA). The entire set of criteria for qualifying as a Palestinian refugee was (and still is) significantly different than the criteria applicable to all others. While the UNHCR worked to provide durable solutions for refugees under its administration, Arab leaders intentionally kept the Palestinians in stateless limbo by refusing to accept any solution that did not involve than the complete destruction of the State of Israel.

In 1948, the UN passed Resolution 194, which recommended the repatriation of refugees to their original homes. The Arab states unanimously rejected the resolution, because it also required all parties “to live at peace with their neighbours”.


arabisraeliconflict.info...

For any of those who think my source is propaganda, I encourage you to do some of your own research on the current situation of Palestinian refugees in other Arab nations.

Jordan is the friendliest to the Palestinians, but has been rescinding Jordanian citizenship slowly since 1988. In fact, from the beginning Jordan required all of the Palestinians to update their Israeli documentation every three years if they even wanted dual citizenship with Jordan.

Here's an example. This was taken from an article dated March 2010.


AMMAN, Jordan — Muhannad Haddad grew up here, went to school here, got a job in a bank here and traveled to foreign countries with a passport from here. Then one day the authorities said he was no longer Jordanian, and with that one stroke they took away his citizenship and compromised his ability to travel, study, work, seek health care, buy property or even drive.

Muhannad Haddad grew up in Jordan, but the authorities revoked his citizenship and compromised his ability to travel, study, work, buy property or drive. The authorities effectively told him they were doing it for his own good. They said that like thousands of other Jordanians of Palestinian descent, he was being stripped of his citizenship to preserve his right to someday return to the occupied West Bank or East Jerusalem. “They gave me a paper that said, ‘You are now Palestinian,’ ” he said, recalling the day three years ago that his life changed.


www.nytimes.com...



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by alfa1
 




All that posted news article does is say that its a waste of time delaying tactic, but nowhere have I yet seen why such an observer status is so horribly negative that it should be actively denied to them.


Personally, most of the world doesn't think it's a big deal because it doesn't give them voting privileges, etc., however, the extremists in the Middle East look at it as being one step closer to statehood. If Palestine becomes a state, the entire Muslim world will be forced to recognize Israel as a state too. It's against the religious views of the Muslim extremists to do so. Breaking up any part of Palestine and giving it to the Jews to live peacefully would be the equivalent of denouncing their faith.

Has anyone been to Egypt on Air Cairo? Has anyone looked at the nice little map of the region that they have on the airline? Guess what? It doesn't include Israel on it. Anywhere.

If these people are forced to recognize Israel as a state, all hell will break loose worse than it already has.



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 06:43 AM
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So if I am to understand correctly, people are against the Palestinians getting recognised as separate state because it would imply recognition of Israel as a state, and would thus cause "all hell will break loose worse than it already has"?

I'm sorry, I'm still not getting the connection.



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


The Palestinians want their own state, but they don't want to have to recognize Israel as a sovereign state too as a part of that deal. If they did, they would have to give up their fight with Israel and be held liable by the international community.

I think you said it best earlier when you said that they don't really want peace. In a way, that's true. Because the die hard Muslims in the area don't think peace can exist as long as Jews are living in the Middle East. If peace includes some kind of negotiations between the Jews and the Muslim co-existing together, we're never going to see peace in the Middle East. Bottom line. Yet, at the same time, we know that no one is going to try to remove the Jews from Israel, except for maybe the Muslim extremists.

According to the extremists, and there are plenty of them living in the Middle East to create havoc for everyone, it is against the Islamic religion to concede ANY of the land of Palestine to Israel at all. They say that peace only comes if everyone is following and worshiping Allah and no one else. Plus, they claim that once a land has been conquered for Islam, it is always Muslim land. Islam and Judaism can not co-exist.



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by Spike Spiegle
edit: ***I remain completely neutral on this matter***


You will all have heard or will soon hear about Spain's plan to back Palestine's move to join the U.N



edit: decided to remove the backlash bit, since people were misreading it.



Hamas, which took control of Gaza in 2007 and is backed by Iran, is so consumed with hatred for Israel that it has repeatedly resorted to violence, no matter the cost to its own people.


Gaza militants have fired between 750 to 800 rockets into Israel this year
Nobel Peace Laureates are now calling for military embargo of Israel.


Thoughts ATS.


SS

www.telegrap h.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)
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edit on 033030p://pm3003 by Spike Spiegle because: ***
edit on 033030p://pm3020 by Spike Spiegle because: edit


This is biased as hell and gives the wrong impression. Hamas did not "take control" of Gaza.. they were elected! Of course for the media pushing the government's agenda they will stop at nothing to spread lies and distort the truth.



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by Yazman
 





This is biased as hell and gives the wrong impression. Hamas did not "take control" of Gaza.. they were elected! Of course for the media pushing the government's agenda they will stop at nothing to spread lies and distort the truth.


Hamas was elected into Parliament, but then they took over the rest of the government in order to control Gaza.

"Battle of Gaza (2007)"


The Battle of Gaza (Arabic: معركة غزّة‎) was a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah that took place between June 7 and 15, 2007 in the Gaza Strip. After winning Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, Hamas formed the Palestinian authority national unity government with Fatah in 2007, headed by Ismail Haniya. In June 2007 Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip[3] and removed Fatah officials. The ICRC estimated that at least 118 people were killed and more than 550 wounded during the fighting in the week up to June 15.[4]

en.wikipedia.org...(2007)



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by Spike Spiegle
reply to post by MysterX
 


I wish to remind everyone, that I remain completely neutral on this matter.

I don't back Israel anymore then I do the Palestinians.

You guys get so mad, so quick, so quick to judge...

I simply stated some facts.



Do you really believe your headline was not inflammatory?

You are not just stating facts. You are saying that this is just the latest in a series of maneuvers by Palestine to stall peace with Israel.

You don't fault Israel at all. That is called biased opinion.

You are not neutral.

Realize that Israel is way better armed and has caused untold deaths over the years with it's over the top retaliations. I could see lobbing rocks since that is about what the Palestinians are doing, but not the sophisticated weapons they are using.

Also there is no mention of targeting media by Israel. No mention of assassinations either.

Palestine throws spit wads compared to what Israel throws. It is about time Palestine had some other nations stand behind them.



SS
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posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Yazman
 





This is biased as hell and gives the wrong impression. Hamas did not "take control" of Gaza.. they were elected! Of course for the media pushing the government's agenda they will stop at nothing to spread lies and distort the truth.


Hamas was elected into Parliament, but then they took over the rest of the government in order to control Gaza.

"Battle of Gaza (2007)"


The Battle of Gaza (Arabic: معركة غزّة‎) was a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah that took place between June 7 and 15, 2007 in the Gaza Strip. After winning Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, Hamas formed the Palestinian authority national unity government with Fatah in 2007, headed by Ismail Haniya. In June 2007 Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip[3] and removed Fatah officials. The ICRC estimated that at least 118 people were killed and more than 550 wounded during the fighting in the week up to June 15.[4]

en.wikipedia.org...(2007)


Hm, didn't know about this part. Fair enough - I can admit when I'm wrong. Still though, I do think it is worth mentioning though that they were duly elected even if their control of Gaza is not necessarily legitimate.



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by Yazman
 


Here's something else you might be interested in knowing.

There hasn't been an election in Gaza since, because Hamas keeps delaying it. I think they know they're not wanted any more.


A presidential and parliamentary election to the Palestinian National Authority is intended to be held in 2012. The election has been postponed because of intra-Palestinian political disputes between Fatah and Hamas, from the original date of 17 July 2010. In November 2011, an election date on 4 May 2012 was preliminarily agreed on. However, due to further delays, the election was decided to be held after June 2012.. The elections might be held in 2013 after the Fall 2012 municipal elections.


en.wikipedia.org...

So, the last election was supposed to have taken place on July 17, 2010, and so far....nothing!

Abbas keeps sending proposed dates to Hamas and Hamas keeps rejecting them and making excuses, if you read the rest of the link.



edit on 30-11-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 30 2012 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by onecraftydude
 


It's important to point out that the current President of Israel Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and he endorsed the President of the Palestinian Authority Abbas plan for the UN bid. Also, note that Abbas is not Hamas. He is Fatah.

History is replete with similar examples. Eventually positions on both sides will soften and the fears will subside.





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