'Witches' link to Cornwall sex abuse case

'Witches' link to Cornwall sex abuse case

www.bbc.co.uk

Two men alleged to be members of a witches' coven have appeared in court charged with sexual offences against children.

Jack Kemp, 68, of Grenville Road, Falmouth, faces 15 charges of sexual assaults on girls five to 14 years old.

Peter Petrauske, 71, formerly of Falmouth, faces two charges of indecent assault and one of rape.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Yet another story involving what looks to be a paedophile ring with strange, backward mediaeval beliefs who preyed on innocent kids. Oh, wait a minute, these people are white! And they're not Muslim!

I just thought I'd proffer this up as an alternative to the stories regarding Muslims in places like Rochdale.

Fiddling with kids has got nothing to do with any particular religion, heritage, colour or even country. These beasts can, will and have existed everywhere throughout history. Focusing on Muslims and particular means of accessing young children means that our collective eyes are looking elsewhere and missing stories like this. It's not all internet grooming and kebab shops.

www.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Interesting.

Wow.

So you're saying muslims are like magicians?

Originally posted by winofiend
Interesting.

Wow.

So you're saying muslims are like magicians?

Well, put this way, you never see Abu Hamza in the same room as Siegfried and Roy, do you?

Also, it's got to be some kind of magic trick how they're responsible for everything , according to some people. Although, of course, the Rochdale paedophiles weren't responsible for the paedophilia committed by rotund Rochdale LibDem MP Cyril Smith. Just what is it about these LibDems and their beliefs that allow them to think this kind of thing is OK?

Erm i think this only goes to show that those very backwards beliefes can and do
extended to every single ridiculous claim and do indeed cause harm. these people
were witches, I understand your pointing out that its not all the muslims fault and
no one ever said it was all their fault, we have been screaming at the top of our
lungs about the catholic church doing this crap for years now.

What i mean by this is that allowing people to practice religion and giving them
"respect" for their beliefs is dangerous, giving them special treatment for their
beliefs is insane and allowing them to get away with any form of oppression under
the guise of those beliefs is criminal.

Here is an interesting thought, how do you get bad people to do bad things?
most would say only opportunity is really required.

Now how do you get a person who normally would not do a bad thing or bad
things to do them? Religion or supernatural beliefs come to mind as one
of the very very few ways that can happen. they must be convinced that
even though they hate what they are doing, it is still necessary for whatever
reason. Their morality must be compromised to do bad things.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


This does not mean there are not serious Muslim problems, only that they arent responsible for EVERY bad act. So now we can say they are responsible for 99%, not 100%.

Originally posted by bloodreviara
Erm i think this only goes to show that those very backwards beliefes can and do
extended to every single ridiculous claim and do indeed cause harm. these people
were witches, I understand your pointing out that its not all the muslims fault and
no one ever said it was all their fault, we have been screaming at the top of our
lungs about the catholic church doing this crap for years now.

What i mean by this is that allowing people to practice religion and giving them
"respect" for their beliefs is dangerous, giving them special treatment for their
beliefs is insane and allowing them to get away with any form of oppression under
the guise of those beliefs is criminal.

For the record, I've got ridiculous, backwards, early mediaeval beliefs myself. Whilst I don't expect people to share my beliefs, I would like them to respect them - especially as I'm not pushing my beliefs in other people's faces.

Here is an interesting thought, how do you get bad people to do bad things?
most would say only opportunity is really required.

I've argued this point throughout all the paedophile threads on here, whether it's been applicable to Jimmy Savile, Masons, Scout Masters, teachers, politicians, Royalty, priests or whatever. It's about using authority/influence to create opportunity to not only molest kids but also to cover it up. They're attracted to positions which afford opportunity already or will create that opportunity - hence grooming and so on.

However, it presents a problem with no real solution: we can't remove all positions of authority or influence from society. A society without teachers, nursery workers, priests, Scout Masters, political figures or, indeed, any position where someone has influence or authority over an other would pretty much collapse easily. Even in an idealistic anarchist commune scenario, there's still going to be opportunity for paedophiles due to the often necessary relationships between children and adults.

Now how do you get a person who normally would not do a bad thing or bad
things to do them? Religion or supernatural beliefs come to mind as one
of the very very few ways that can happen. they must be convinced that
even though they hate what they are doing, it is still necessary for whatever
reason. Their morality must be compromised to do bad things.

It's nothing to do with religion or supernatural beliefs. People will use all kinds of things to prop-up a supposedly moral position if necessary or reason why what they do is acceptable. It's nothing to do with Christians, Mason, witches or even Muslims or the moon worshippers of Av Sav'aakk.

I would be very surprised if the witches child sex abuse ring were anywhere near as blatant as the Rochdale Muslim ring.

I don't expect the Cornish police, and social services turned a blind eye for fear of being labelled a witch hater, facing the possibility of losing their job, and facing a day in court.

It all comes down to risk exposure.

The anti racist laws imposed on our society have made looking into real allegations too high a risk for most people.

Just like the rich.

I have noticed all the media outlets regurgitating how, following recent BBC allegations "Lord Tarmac" was innocent, why?

Because he said so.

Freddy Star also "said so" but we don't see the same reaction from the media.

It's not Muslims or White people that are the problem OP. It's the Eskimos. Those people are up to no good. I mean think about it, people hardly keep an eye on them. They are probably getting away with so many atrocious deeds, and we are none the wiser.

Originally posted by Watchfull
I would be very surprised if the witches child sex abuse ring were anywhere near as blatant as the Rochdale Muslim ring.

And I'd be very surprised if the Rochdale Muslim ring was as blatant as someone like Savile.

I don't expect the Cornish police, and social services turned a blind eye for fear of being labelled a witch hater, facing the possibility of losing their job, and facing a day in court.

I appreciate what you're saying, but I think the Rochdale social services and police would perhaps turn a blind eye - or at least be very, very cautious about being labelled witch haters and so on. Rochdale, like a few other towns, had a massive scandal with bogus 'Satanic child abuse' scenarios 20 years ago.

It all comes down to risk exposure.

I've made that point myself already in the thread. However, it's not specific to Muslims: you can apply this to all positions of authority/influence. Risk exposure and the ability to cover things up are related to authority and influence.

The anti racist laws imposed on our society have made looking into real allegations too high a risk for most people.

Lolwut? It's nothing to do with anti-racist laws. Unless you think it was a mistake to try and move on from the days of 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish'? Maybe back to the days of calling people 'coons', 'wogs' and 'pakis'?

Nothing wrong with racism laws, the problem is how they are actually used.

I have noticed all the media outlets regurgitating how, following recent BBC allegations "Lord Tarmac" was innocent, why?

Because he said so.

Now here we do agree. This has fascinated me and I've posted this very point on ATS before. He says he's not a paedophile, and we all go, "OK, sorry for the confusion, have some cash." How does that work in any other way of life? He might not be a paedophile (there's some suggestion it was a relation with a strong family resemblance), but how does he escape scrutiny if claims have been made against him? Let's not forget, it was the police who tied his name to a positively identified photograph.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I simply don't understand why people want to be respected for believing something
that is fiction, if i told you i wanted respect because i believe star trek is actually
real, would that sound ok to you? would i deserve respect for believing in something
like that? no, its a fantasy, if the things we believe are not based in reality and reason
then anyone can do anything that they like, also your point is semi invalid by the fact
that these religions DO try to force their view on others, Christianity, Islam, Judaism,
they all somehow believe they are the ones that are correct and their subjective
morality should be used.

Another thing to point out, not every religion can be right, simply by the fact that they
contradict themselves, but every single religion could well be wrong.

as to good people doing bad things in the name of religion, most of the folks who
vote in U.S, on gay rights, are good people doing wrong because the bible says
to do so, there is no logical reason to oppress those people other than religion.
and in other countries its far worse, we have innocent and good people that are
Muslim voting for horrid oppressive laws that encourage some of the most vile
and violent acts that occur in the world today.

there is nothing wrong with pointing out immoral things, even when they are
done in the name of morality, if something is wrong then its wrong no matter
who is doing it.

If they want to play pretend that is just fine, but they need to play in their own
yard and stop dragging others into their plays.

The thing is, certain sections within our society are treat differently than the rest of us, some are even actively protected.

Politicians and other 'elites' seem to get a certain amount of protection that allows them to continue their pracrtices safe in the knowledge that other's involved in similar practices will use their positions of power, influence and control to prevent details of their 'doings' being investigated and prosecuted.

And that is part of the reasoning behind MSM failing to report on these practices, unless their hand is forced.

But there is also a fear that if the true extent of paedophilia etc within these exclusive and powerful circles becomes proven and common knowledge then public confidence in the system that governs and controls us will disintegrate.

In addition thanks to the PC Brigade it has become unethical and innapropriate to label perpetrators of these sort of crimes by their ethnicity, unless White British, despite overwhelming evidence that there is a definate and identified problem with a specific part of Muslim communities in the UK which many Muslims and Asians recognise and acknowledge themselves.

Due to fears of reprisal attacks against immigrant communities and the resultant shattering of the image of a racially united UK the interests of the criminals are put before those of the victims.

It seems that if the perpetrators of paedophilia and members of sex rings are white and British and come from poor, deprived backgrounds it's ok to publicise, prosecute and to discuss but not if it doesn't fit with the desired perception of a politically correct Britiain.
And if it the so called 'elites' who exert tremedous power and influece within UK society are shown to be involved in such practices there is a fear that it would undermine the publics faith in 'our 'society and it's guardians etc and could indeed lead a complete breakdown of society.

There appears to be some sort of drip feeding of information relating to paedophilia / sex rings / sex abuse etc at present - it's almost as if someone is intentionally controlling things and persuing their own agenda, which at this moment is still unclear.

Or maybe as with many things this thing has developed a life and momentum of it's own and there is a randomness to it that is beyond anyone's control.

I think the most deeply disturbing thing about all this is just how prevalent and common paedophilia and sex abuse is within our society and how it seems to cross so many social, racial, and cultural bounderies.
I'm not sure society as a whole is ready to acknowledge, accept and deal with that.

Originally posted by Freeborn
The thing is, certain sections within our society are treat differently than the rest of us, some are even actively protected.

...

I think the most deeply disturbing thing about all this is just how prevalent and common paedophilia and sex abuse is within our society and how it seems to cross so many social, racial, and cultural bounderies.
I'm not sure society as a whole is ready to acknowledge, accept and deal with that.

edit on 28/11/12 by Freeborn because: grammar and clarity

This has been my point throughout all these threads. It cuts through all society strata and demographics. I mention above it presents a problem with no real solution as it's everywhere where there's positions of power or influence and that's every facet of our lives.

I don't think broader society is ready to accept this, I think this is one of the reasons why some people seem to be much happier in accepting some demographics are guilty of this than others.

Originally posted by bloodreviara
Erm i think this only goes to show that those very backwards beliefes can and do
extended to every single ridiculous claim and do indeed cause harm. these people
were witches, I understand your pointing out that its not all the muslims fault and
no one ever said it was all their fault, we have been screaming at the top of our
lungs about the catholic church doing this crap for years now.

What i mean by this is that allowing people to practice religion and giving them
"respect" for their beliefs is dangerous, giving them special treatment for their
beliefs is insane and allowing them to get away with any form of oppression under
the guise of those beliefs is criminal.

Here is an interesting thought, how do you get bad people to do bad things?
most would say only opportunity is really required.

Now how do you get a person who normally would not do a bad thing or bad
things to do them? Religion or supernatural beliefs come to mind as one
of the very very few ways that can happen. they must be convinced that
even though they hate what they are doing, it is still necessary for whatever
reason. Their morality must be compromised to do bad things.

OTOH, persecuting people for having unpopular beliefs is the hallmark of a totalitarian state and trying to squash beliefs that you don't like is very Orwellian.

How about this? There are bad people who do bad things with various beliefs from Religious to Athiest to agnostic. How about just punishing those who break the law?

Originally posted by Freeborn
I think the most deeply disturbing thing about all this is just how prevalent and common paedophilia and sex abuse is within our society and how it seems to cross so many social, racial, and cultural bounderies.
I'm not sure society as a whole is ready to acknowledge, accept and deal with that.

edit on 28/11/12 by Freeborn because: grammar and clarity

Freeborn, you seem to have an excellent handle on all this.

I have noted that Sir Cyril Smith is the latest dead guy to be media outed, and the crown prosecution service let him "slip through their fingers" on 3 occasions.

I had not considered the idea of us being drip fed information, and had assumed that Saviles past had caught up with him.

I would guess that every greenhorn entering the corridors of power will be given all sorts of temptation, that can later be used as blackmail.

Probably leaving very few good guys.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir


Lolwut? It's nothing to do with anti-racist laws. Unless you think it was a mistake to try and move on from the days of 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish'? Maybe back to the days of calling people 'coons', 'wogs' and 'pakis'?

Nothing wrong with racism laws, the problem is how they are actually used.

I agree, it was a sweeping statement of mine, the misinterpretation of laws, and even laws, that do not exist, are regularly used to stop justice being done, to coin a phrase.

I was around during the "riots" of 2001, and had access to a scanner, before all the radios went digital.

I was annoyed, but not surprised to hear HQ sending a bulletin to all officers, "if you see any Asian driver commit any road traffic offences, of any description, do not stop them, under any circumstances"

That is manipulation of the populous.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


I read the story and to me it sounds more like a fetish rather than a religious thing.

Mr Beal said some of the assaults took the form of rituals with victims' wrists tied and the use of a knife.

The prosecution said when police searched Mr Petrauske's home they discovered witchcraft paraphernalia including books, gowns and a mask.

I've known Wicca's people who practice Shinto Tantra Gnosticism Baha'i
and even on fellow who claimed to be into Satan worship... none of those would ever dream of molesting a child. You cant blame a religion just the people who did it...

rituals with victims' wrists tied and the use of a knife

Sounds more like a bondage scene rather than something spiritual.
sounds like these guys are trying to get out of trouble by claiming their perversion is really some kind of obscure religious practice.

Originally posted by bloodreviara
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

I simply don't understand why people want to be respected for believing something
that is fiction, if i told you i wanted respect because i believe star trek is actually
real, would that sound ok to you?would i deserve respect for believing in something
like that?

I think, whether intentionally or not, you're greatly missing the point. I don't want respect like it's a medal or a badge of honour, to be marked out as 'special' in some way only in the sense of understanding that I believe what I believe and letting me get on with it: a respect to my right to believe whatever I want.

Love isn't real. It's not something that you can really prove, it's intangible, it's subjective and the role chemistry and evolutionary/biological drive plays suggests that it's never really what we 'feel'.

If you want to believe in Star Trek, knock yourself out. Lot's of good stuff in there, pondering on the nature of moral codes and the greater good &c. The kicker is, you might already and I really wouldn't know either way.

no, its a fantasy, if the things we believe are not based in reality and reason
then anyone can do anything that they like, also your point is semi invalid by the fact
that these religions DO try to force their view on others, Christianity, Islam, Judaism,
they all somehow believe they are the ones that are correct and their subjective
morality should be used. Another thing to point out, not every religion can be right, simply by the fact that they
contradict themselves, but every single religion could well be wrong.

My religious views aren't listed there, to be fair. The idea of whether one religion is right or wrong is complex issue. I just don't give it any thought, to be honest. I don't really care what Christians think unless it bangs into my day-to-day life, same goes for Muslims and so on. Also, it doesn't necessarily have to be an 'either or' scenario. I'm OK with the idea that there might be something to the idea of a Christian god as long as my own beliefs. There's no real overlap to be honest and very little in the way of contradiction. The only real difficulty there might be is in the idea of hard and soft polytheism; to me that's more problematic.

If they want to play pretend that is just fine, but they need to play in their own
yard and stop dragging others into their plays.

edit on 28-11-2012 by bloodreviara because: (no reason given)

This is how I see it to be honest, and I think other than a vocal minority, that's how the bulk of religious people all across the world see it too.

Originally posted by MajorMayhem
I've known Wicca's people who practice Shinto Tantra Gnosticism Baha'i
and even on fellow who claimed to be into Satan worship... none of those would ever dream of molesting a child. You cant blame a religion just the people who did it...

I'd read the thread again, as it looks like you've missed the point. I'm not blaming any religion, whether it's Wicca, Brit Trad Witchcraft, Alexandrian Witchcraft, an eclectic pick and mix, or some man-hating Diana worshipping offshoot or, for that matter, Muslim. That was the whole point of the thread.

Sounds more like a bondage scene rather than something spiritual.

That's an accusation that's been laid at Gardner's feet since the 1950s, even by witches of all kinds of denominations.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

OTOH, persecuting people for having unpopular beliefs is the hallmark of a totalitarian state and trying to squash beliefs that you don't like is very Orwellian.

How about this? There are bad people who do bad things with various beliefs from Religious to Athiest to agnostic. How about just punishing those who break the law?

I agree totally. I was going to stay out of this thread till I read this, but you've hit the nail on the head here. It totally unimportant what anyone believes...it's what they DO that should count, and only that. Just because someone somewhere called these people witches, maybe even they call themselves witches, doesn't actually mean in truth that they are witches, and it's probably irrelevant to their prosecution. Thank God the witchcraft laws have been repealed in the UK! The inclusion of the witch angle smacks of cheap journalism anyway.

I personally would be interested to hear the reasoning behind the indeterminate ban on case coverage. If it is because of an ongoing investigation that would be completely understandable, if not it becomes more somewhat more thought provoking.