Originally posted by vincere7

Originally posted by paperclip
Just because somebody offers you the reason why killings are commited, that doesn't mean we support or condone them.

Now, to something else.

There is a fundamental flaw in that statement. It is not killing that gets you to heaven. It is your will to give up your own life to DEFEND your family, country, land or faith, that opens the gate of paradise.

I emphasize the word "defend" here, because according to Qur'an, that is one of two times a killing is allowed.

Jihad is a term used to describe the complexity of this inner struggle, and part of it contains the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good: your own life.

So, yes, Jihad does guarantee a place in heaven, only Jihad is not what you (or bin Laden for that matter) think it is. Your understanding of it is very vague, incomplete, inaccurate and very simplified.

I had no idea that a person called paperclip was the voice of Islam.

In case you are ignorant of the facts of reality like pretty much every peace loving muslim who has posted on this thread SUICIDE BOMBERS generally are not DEFENDING jack #e. Shall we delve into all the killing and bombings over the last decade for ample evidence or would you like to paint another picture of voluptuous frogsh%*t.

If your idea of a complex inner struggle includes blowing bus fulls of children up you are sick twisted individual willing to say anything to justify what HAS hhappened and WILL continue to happem. Inner struggle. YES it's an inner struggle within Islam it's called TO MURDER or NOT TO MURDER. Sadly many muslims choose the first option.

Lets see jihad is not what I or Osama think it is. Please Mr. Paperclip will you stand up and tell the rest of the suicide bombers and those about to fly anymore airplanes into our buildings that they are not thinking correctly that their understanding of it is very vague, incomplete, inaccurate and very simplified.

By the end of the day we will count how many muslims listen to YOUR peace loving beliefs instead of jihad as described by mohammed. It's real easy to find out just follow the dead bodies.

get your facts straight

Originally posted by Muaddib
you obviously do not know that the first and longest crusade was made by the Muslims.

Oh, the 'longest' crusade? Is that what we're talking about now? Well tell me Muaddib, what is the time limit for a crusade to count?

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Qoran has many verses which contradict each other

As does the Bible. Tell me, are you a religious man, Muaddib?

No, I am not a religious person. Wether or not you want to believe it, i am a spiritual person, but i adhere more to a zen Buddhist kind of view, in which if you are attacked it is your right to defend yourself.

Originally posted by Durden

Oh, the 'longest' crusade? Is that what we're talking about now? Well tell me Muaddib, what is the time limit for a crusade to count?

Durden....when were the Christian crusades fought...and when was the Muslim crusade fought? do you even know?.....

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Bryan,

People have convinced themselves for all time that it is right and good to kill other people in the name of their respective gods. Why would it be any different now, in this modern age? You'd be surprised how easy is it, with god and religion, to believe yourself out of your natural conscience. Hell, some people leave their consciences behind for a paycheck.

We are killers, all. Some just more disciplined than others.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

I dont find where my God and his Son the Christ Jesus tells me to kill without cause. Lack of belief is met with tolerance. Attacks are met with presenting the other cheeck. Now yes Christains have defended themselves with violence. But a great deal happened in order for that right
to bestowed apon them and God himself struck down the world with the great flood. He didnt force man to judge man and to kill for him. Most active combat in fact that man was involved in were for right to exist and defense not retribution.....Yes there where one or two times off the cuff I cant say it did happen where one army attack another for the purposes of Gods will but that had midigating circumstances. Not lack of faith being a death warrent enforced by man to win a place in heaven.

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Christian crusades was a response against the Muslims trying to conquer and force Islam on the world.

Now are you saying that the christian crusades essentially were self-defensive in nature and that the atrocities perpetrated only were against muslims?

Originally posted by Muaddib
No, I am not a religious person. Wether or not you want to believe it, i am a spiritual person, but i adhere more to a zen Buddhist kind of view, in which if you are attacked it is your right to defend yourself.

No worries. I'm not a religious person either.

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Christian crusades was a response against the Muslims trying to conquer and force Islam on the world.

Now are you saying that the christian crusades essentially were self-defensive in nature and that the atrocities perpetrated only were against muslims?

No, the Christian crusades also became an aberration and many injustices were caused later on, but it was a reaction from what happened when the Muslims went out to conquer the world.

BTW, you still did not anwser my question....do you know the times for the Christian and the Muslim crusades?

The difference is that Jesus was not raiding caravans and was not going around with a sword teaching his people to kill those who do not believe.

While Muhammed created a religion and laws, which he himself broke many of these laws, and most of the profits from the raids went to him...including women and children, taking a girl as young as 6 years old as a wife. According to the law a Muslim can take up to 4 women if he can provide for them, yet Muhammed took 12 wives.


[edit on 25-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Durden
Now are you saying that the christian crusades essentially were self-defensive in nature and that the atrocities perpetrated only were against muslims?

That statement, combined with Jack holding that 'Deny Ignorance' soap has a very profound effect. On me anyway, I don't know about the good reverend...

[edit on 25-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Originally posted by Muaddib
No, the Christian crusades also became an aberration and many injustices were caused later on, but it was a reaction from what happened when the Muslims went out to conquer the world.

You obviously agree that atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of the Christian belief as well. So what is your actual point, Muaddib?

BTW, yous till did not anwser my question....do you know the times for the Christian and the Muslim crusades?

Do I have to point out how ridiculous that question really is? Think about it, Muaddib...

Originally posted by Muaddib
The difference is that Jesus was not raiding caravans and was not going around with a sword teaching his people to kill those who do not believe.

Wait, are we to believe you think Jesus was part of the christian crusades?

Originally posted by Durden

You obviously agree that atrocities have been perpetrated in the name of the Christian belief as well. So what is your actual point, Muaddib?

Read above...the point is the main prophet of Islam was not a peaceful person....how can you expect all Muslims to be peaceful? Radical Muslims kill moderates because moderates do not follow the laws of the Koran and Sharia as they are supposed to be followed, this is not my statement but theirs.

Durden...how many Christians are going around blowing themselves up and others in the name of religion?.........

Many Christians are extreme in their belief but they do not go around with an M-16 killing people, or beheading people....

The atrocities of Christianity can be attributed to the greed of the church back in those days, but Christ was not teaching to do these things. Muhammed on the other hand did teach violence against nonbelievers.

Originally posted by Durden
Do I have to point out how ridiculous that question really is? Think about it, Muaddib...

To you it is easy to say ridiculous now, to me it tells me you did not know and didn't want to be caught with your foot in your mouth.

The Muslims Crusades began in 630 AD, while the first Christian Crusades begun in 1095 AD as a response to take back those lands that were conquered by the Muslims, as well as Jerusalem, then the Christians did the same thing the Muslims had done, and went to fight them all over the middle east and trying to subjugate them to Christianity just as Muslims had tried.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by Muaddib
The difference is that Jesus was not raiding caravans and was not going around with a sword teaching his people to kill those who do not believe.

Wait, are we to believe you think Jesus was part of the christian crusades?

ABSOLUTELY NOT I am refering to the walls the were pulled down and the city destroyed by man given the power by God....And the protection of God in battle where in the staff when raised protected Gods people from failure and destruction...

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by Muaddib
The difference is that Jesus was not raiding caravans and was not going around with a sword teaching his people to kill those who do not believe.

Wait, are we to believe you think Jesus was part of the christian crusades?

Where did i say that in my post?....... You like to put words that i have not said....

Originally posted by Muaddib
Read above...the point is the main prophet of Islam was not a peaceful person....how can you expect all Muslims to be peaceful? Radical Muslims kill moderates because moderates do not follow the laws of the Koran and Sharia as they are supposed to be followed, this is not my statement but theirs.

Muaddib, your die hard belief in the ever peaceful christians is naive at best. In human history, far too many have been murdered in the name of God for any sane person to write it off as exclusively something motivated by Islam.

Durden...how many Christians are going around blowing themselves up and others in the name of religion?.........

Tell me... did Muhammed blow himself up?

Many Christians are extreme in their belief but they do not go around with an M-16 killing people, or beheading people....

What is it you want to say? Is it the manner in which these extremist are killing people that you want to discuss? Well answer me this; have christians in our history never beheaded people? Haven't they ever tortured people? Engaged in Witch Hunts?

If you don't realize this has to do with certain groups committing atrocities in the name of God, much like christians have done many times over in our own history - then you seriously need to do a reality check.

What exactly is it you're proposing? A ban against Islam based on the actions these extremists? Yeah, you really need a reality check.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Qoran has many verses which contradict each other

As does the Bible. Tell me, are you a religious man, Muaddib?

No, I am not a religious person. Wether or not you want to believe it, i am a spiritual person, but i adhere more to a zen Buddhist kind of view, in which if you are attacked it is your right to defend yourself.

Durden no offense but you have attack those who are of the clergy so where do you stand.. I have seen you on the opposition of just about every religious person you have come into contact with.. And while I personally didnt take offense to your attacks of me a called and ordained man of God, not here because I thought it would be cool to wear religous clothing and talk about the bible to hear myself speak, I have seen the brunt of your best arguements but honestly thats all I have seen. Your are always seeking debate and denial and nothing but contriversy.


This was the reason why I came out with the joke about dejavou. In just this thread you have taken an agressive position doughting more than you state.


What is your belief tell us and let us strickly ask you questions trade places for a minute. And in all fairness I ask everyone here to allow him to state his case, and be polite in your questions and responses to his belief, because yet his methods are highly agressive DURDEN HAS BEEN POLITE to me in the same respect when I have been on the recieving end...


YOU HAVE THE FLOOR DURDEN......everyone let him speak and respond politely please.........

Originally posted by Muaddib
To you it is easy to say ridiculous now, to me it tells me you did not know and didn't want to be caught with your foot in your mouth.

Are you serious? I asked you to think about it. Evidently you chose to take the easy way out. Tell me, do you often do so?

Originally posted by Durden
Are you serious? I asked you to think about it. Evidently you chose to take the easy way out. Tell me, do you often do so?

I asked you a question which you did not anwser saying it was a stupid question. Then you start proclaiming i said things that were nowhere to be found in my posts..... who was trying to take the easy way out?.....

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Muaddib]