Originally posted by ZeroDeep
The U.S helped ensure that this mans family was flown out of the country after 9/11. The U.S instead of going after Osama, decided to go into a country that had NOTHING to do with the attacks on America.

Well, except for the terrorist camps in Iraq and the funding that Saddam has made to suicide bombers and other terrorists against israel and US interests, and of course there is also the warning from Russia that Saddam was going to help in some attacks against the US after 9/11....

About the Koran, i have links to the Koran and what it teaches, and many of the things it teaches are not about peace and love to those who are not Muslim.

Originally posted by Muaddib
About the Koran, i have links to the Koran and what it teaches, and many of the things it teaches are not about peace and love to those who are not Muslim.

It is not my position to judge anyone, but what kind of provocation would a God have to be this hostile......I mean sending your people out to die to uphold your will and killing those who appose you. Better yet what is the incentive to fallow a God of such great disreguard for yours and others well being..

Originally posted by Jakomo
....
Yeah, Castro is the Devil himself. Haha.
....

Perhaps you should clarify yourself here, are you saying Castro is a good man and that he has not committed crimes against the Cuban people and others?

To clarify what I was talking about here are a few quotes from Qur'an:

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid (Mecca), unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

Relevant quotes on murder:

[4:93] Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.

[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people. Our messengers went to them with clear proofs and revelations, but most of them, after all this, are still transgressing.
Note: this goes for all believers, as clarified later in the text, and not just the Children of Israel. People off all religions keep ignoring these commands, although they call themselves believers

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice.


It is important to point out that just like Torah, the Qur'an has served as an instruction manual back in those days, IN THE PAST, for the people living in those times. Qur'an must be read in context, in order of revelation, and compared to situation Mohammad and his followers were in when suras were revealed to them. They were often an answer to their current situation.

These days there seem to be quite a few people with influence who claim they know God's will or that God speaks to them, apoints them to do God's work on Earth (example: Bin Laden and his jihad, Bush and his war against evil). To my knowledge ALL holy books warn of such self-proclaimed prophets and warn us about the danger of listening to their words.
Sadly, people conveniently ignore these warnings and choose to follow these madmen. The results of such foolishness are very much evident all over this planet.

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
It is not my position to judge anyone, but what kind of provocation would a God have to be this hostile......I mean sending your people out to die to uphold your will and killing those who appose you. Better yet what is the incentive to fallow a God of such great disreguard for yours and others well being..

Quran itself means submission to Allah, and in itself it teaches that it should be done by the sword if people do not accept it. This was the radical way in which it was written, and even how Muhammed lived....

Muhammed was not a peaceful man nomatter how many times some Muslims claim otherwise, history shows this as well as some of the scriptures of Quran.

Now I am not claiming that all Muslims follow this radical view of Islam, but it is the way it was meant to be followed and it is exactly the first thing that the newly converted Muslims did in the Dark Ages...they went out into the world to teach Islam by the sword. This is the path that radical Muslims are following this dayandage.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Now I am not claiming that all Muslims follow this radical view of Islam, but it is the way it was meant to be followed and it is exactly the first thing that the newly converted Muslims did in the Dark Ages...

Hold on a minute there. You actually claim to know more about how the Quran should be followed as opposed to how the majority of muslims read it??

What is your area of expertise here, exactly?

Originally posted by Muaddib
Quran itself means submission to Allah, and in itself it teaches that it should be done by the sword if people do not accept it. This was the radical way in which it was written, and even how Muhammed lived....

Muhammed was not a peaceful man nomatter how many times some Muslims claim otherwise, history shows this as well as some of the scriptures of Quran.

Now I am not claiming that all Muslims follow this radical view of Islam, but it is the way it was meant to be followed and it is exactly the first thing that the newly converted Muslims did in the Dark Ages...they went out into the world to teach Islam by the sword. This is the path that radical Muslims are following this dayandage.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Dude no offense but a God that practices death as the only means of law, has very little to offer spritually????? I just Hope that the spiritual after life
doesnt hold the same because it seems the principles are reversed.... You live in he*l here on earth and hopefully get peace and justice in heaven...
But I really dont see how when then God that tortured you here on earth is going to be right there next to you in heaven. It only makes logical sense someone so agressive wont change his ways just because you have a new address... If I have offended anyone in this Im sorry I just dont understand the attachment to pain and suffering and love they seem incompatable.

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

In the spirit of this quote:

Quran itself means submission to Allah

No, it doesn't. Qur'an means "reading, recitation". Islam means "submission".

and in itself it teaches that it should be done by the sword if people do not accept it.

Again, no. I quote the book YOU claim teaches compulsion in religion:

[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion
[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers? (and by forcing them, put yourself above the will of God, huge sin in Islam, btw)
[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve

Originally posted by Durden

Originally posted by Muaddib
Now I am not claiming that all Muslims follow this radical view of Islam, but it is the way it was meant to be followed and it is exactly the first thing that the newly converted Muslims did in the Dark Ages...

Hold on a minute there. You actually claim to know more about how the Quran should be followed as opposed to how the majority of muslims read it??

What is your area of expertise here, exactly?

OOOOHHHH dejavou It seems I was on this receiving end of this from durden just the other day get ready for a ruff ride.........LOL

Originally posted by paperclip

No, it doesn't. Qur'an means "reading, recitation". Islam means "submission".

You are right about that, it is Islam i was referring to.

Originally posted by paperclip
[2:256] There shall be no compulsion in religion
[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers? (and by forcing them, put yourself above the will of God, huge sin in Islam, btw)

I don't believe that the fundamentalist Muslims are attempting to convert anyone to their beliefs. I do believe that they are trying to make all that do not believe die, though.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I said...it is the way it was meant to be because that's exactly the first thing that they did.....

Hmm.. as I remember it, what you did say was:

I am not claiming that all Muslims follow this radical view of Islam, but it is the way it was meant to be followed and it is exactly the first thing that the newly converted Muslims did in the Dark Ages...

It sure seems to me what you actually implied was that you know how the Quran should be followed and the majority of muslims don't.

And as to the actions by muslims in the Dark Ages in the name of Allah; The Crusades ring a bell?

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Durden]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

I don't believe that the fundamentalist Muslims are attempting to convert anyone to their beliefs. I do believe that they are trying to make all that do not believe die, though.

OKAY I'm going to have to go this way, and admit even under this more simplified thought I still can't see being part of it... I have held men and children and one woman in my arms during my fire/medic and law enforcement careers, and that death rattle and the realization you have done all you can do to save a life just went out the window with that last struggleing breath of hope for life, and to watch them die when it wasn't your fault yet carrying the faces with you forever ecspecialy kids....I cant imagine actually going out an intentionally killing someone because your God said so, It seems to hollow the rewards merit and the desire to reach it.

Originally posted by paperclip
Just because somebody offers you the reason why killings are commited, that doesn't mean we support or condone them.

Now, to something else.

There is a fundamental flaw in that statement. It is not killing that gets you to heaven. It is your will to give up your own life to DEFEND your family, country, land or faith, that opens the gate of paradise.

I emphasize the word "defend" here, because according to Qur'an, that is one of two times a killing is allowed.

Jihad is a term used to describe the complexity of this inner struggle, and part of it contains the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good: your own life.

So, yes, Jihad does guarantee a place in heaven, only Jihad is not what you (or bin Laden for that matter) think it is. Your understanding of it is very vague, incomplete, inaccurate and very simplified.

I had no idea that a person called paperclip was the voice of Islam.

In case you are ignorant of the facts of reality like pretty much every peace loving muslim who has posted on this thread SUICIDE BOMBERS generally are not DEFENDING jack #e. Shall we delve into all the killing and bombings over the last decade for ample evidence or would you like to paint another picture of voluptuous frogsh%*t.

If your idea of a complex inner struggle includes blowing bus fulls of children up you are sick twisted individual willing to say anything to justify what HAS hhappened and WILL continue to happem. Inner struggle. YES it's an inner struggle within Islam it's called TO MURDER or NOT TO MURDER. Sadly many muslims choose the first option.

Lets see jihad is not what I or Osama think it is. Please Mr. Paperclip will you stand up and tell the rest of the suicide bombers and those about to fly anymore airplanes into our buildings that they are not thinking correctly that their understanding of it is very vague, incomplete, inaccurate and very simplified.

By the end of the day we will count how many muslims listen to YOUR peace loving beliefs instead of jihad as described by mohammed. It's real easy to find out just follow the dead bodies.

Bryan,

People have convinced themselves for all time that it is right and good to kill other people in the name of their respective gods. Why would it be any different now, in this modern age? You'd be surprised how easy is it, with god and religion, to believe yourself out of your natural conscience. Hell, some people leave their consciences behind for a paycheck.

We are killers, all. Some just more disciplined than others.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

The Qoran has many verses which contradict each other, while some seem to be portraying peace others portray war and hatred against non-believers.

004.089
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

008.038
YUSUFALI: Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
PICKTHAL: Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.

008.039
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

048.029
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Excerpted from link i gave above.

Originally posted by Durden

And as to the actions by muslims in the Dark Ages in the name of Allah; The Crusades ring a bell?

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Durden]

you obviously do not know that the first and longest crusade was made by the Muslims. You do know they conquered Spain, Italy and France...don't you? and in one of their prophecies it states that they will conquer Rome by the sword in the future.

The Christian crusades was a response against the Muslims trying to conquer and force Islam on the world.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Qoran has many verses which contradict each other

As does the Bible. Tell me, are you a religious man, Muaddib?

Don't worry about it. The bible contradicts itself all the time, too. If it didn't, it wouldn't be very effective in keeping the masses confused, and wouldn't provide religious leaders with every excuse they need to validate the story.