"The U.S. was attacked by Muslims..."

I just realized something with that statement you made...

Know what!?
The entire NBA are monsters right, after all look at Kobe Bryant, he
did something in that hotel room, right!? otherwise WHY!? did he buy
his wife that huge diamond ring?

The NBA if full of bad guys just like Kobe... I just know it!!

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

The U.S. was attack by Osama Bin Laden, not "MUSLIMS"; these were fanatics. Once again, i can be on whatever side i chose, you, sir, seem to live in a black and white world, i'm a new shade of Grey. The U.S armed, trained, and funded these men; the U.S Justified thier killing of Soviet troops; The U.S helped ensure that this mans family was flown out of the country after 9/11. The U.S instead of going after Osama, decided to go into a country that had NOTHING to do with the attacks on America.
[edit on 24-10-2004 by ZeroDeep]

They are still muslims who adhere to the teachings of peaceful Islam. You just wish to explore the non-violent verses where other muslims like to explore the violent verses to gain a greater reward for themselves.

I'm going to do you a favour and post some Islamic teachings, being that you are quite adamant of white-washing Islam as a violent faith that preaches death and prosecution of Kafirs.

No thanks I have hung out with real Islamic people for almost a decade. If I want to read teachings about Islam I will open the Quran.

Exactly. The U.S went on the OFFENSIVE against a country that had no hand in the 9/11 and now thousands upon thousands of Muslims have died for no reason; the relatives, freinds, and supporters of these innocent people will only live with vengence in thier hearts; these people will die protect thier land from opression, which is what they feel. You have not liberated these people, you've just thrown them into a spiral of self-destruction. ANARCY incarnate is what has manifested from your "war" in Iraq.

Thats right the term liberation has to do with their oil. And yes anyone who holds their dead child in their hands will seek revenge.

Once again, i implore you, good sir, give me one statement where i had justified terrorism. I would LOVE to see you do that.

I already have stop repeating yourself.

Have you read the Quran ? Stop saying that the Quran teaches violence.

Yes. I won't stop teaching people the truth. Yes people kill people and according to mohammed that is something you must do if you want a GREATER reward in the afterlife. Oh thats not peaceful is it.

I'm not Muslim.

Well that figures doesn't it.

The United States was not attacked by all of Islam. Not all of Islam plotted what happened on 9/11, or even wished it. And to say that death must be inflicted on thousands of Muslims because thousands of Americans died is medieval at best. A lot of Muslims just want to live their daily lifes and do whatever they can to make a living and be happy.

The day after 9/11, a cartoonist in a newspaper here in Ottawa published a cartoon that said, simply, printed in white on a black background:

"Allah is great. It is those who kill in his name who are small."

And to those who would look at what's written in the Quran to interpret modern Islam... that would be akin to looking at Leviticus and its prescriptions to stone those who do not conform to God's law as the proof of how the Christian religion wants us to behave.

Yes. I won't stop teaching people the truth. Yes people kill people and according to mohammed that is something you must do if you want a GREATER reward in the afterlife. Oh thats not peaceful is it.

Prove that. You're non sequtiur circular logic is getting annoying. Prove that i support terrorism, bring forth a statement i have made invoking such actions.

Don't sit there and label me and Islam something it is not.

Deep

The trend that I find really troubling on this board is that some posters - a minority, thank god - are really here to put posters from "suspect" nations on trial for the crimes they believe an entire group should answer for. It sure doesn't promote understanding or discussion.

When did ATS become a tribunal to judge the unrighteous Muslims, Canadians and French?

And to those taking upon themselves to judge us...

What's your verdict? And the sentence?

Nuclear extermination?
Forced sterilization?

Can we have an idea in advance?

Originally posted by Otts
And to say that death must be inflicted on thousands of Muslims because thousands of Americans died is medieval at best.

And to those who would look at what's written in the Quran to interpret modern Islam... that would be akin to looking at Leviticus and its prescriptions to stone those who do not conform to God's law as the proof of how the Christian religion wants us to behave.

I never said death must be inflicted on Muslims. What I said was death IS being inflicted on muslims and we are at war. We are not waging war in the Netherlands. We are fighting in a nation that has 22,000,000 muslim people surrounded by muslim countries and happens to have the 2nd largest oil field in the world. This shouldn't be too hard for the layman to figure out - yet it is.

I do not believe in the killing of muslims as I have muslim friends I am merely stating reality. That as long as jiihad exists we will be on the offensive from now on and that looks to be a very very long time.

Your statement about Leviticus proves that you don't know much about christianity. Being a christian has nothing to do with stoning people as in the old testament. Remember Jesus? Being a christian means you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins and that makes you able to enter eternity in God's kingdom.

Judaism or the old testament teaches you must follow all the commandments of God with a sacrificial system in place to enter God's kingdom.

mohammed teaches that there are 7 heavens and that by your deeds determines where you enter. Paradise is of course the best realm and those who wage jihad are guaranteed to enter. So you see it is very beneficial to a muslim to kill people for the cause of Islam as they insure their place in paradise. This of course is well taught in the Mosques around the world and really puts the nail in the coffin of those who say 'this is just a minority' group of the muslim population. They are simply saying they do not understand the teachings of Islam.

Now many muslims do not have it in them, as they desire to live a more peaceful life than those engaged in jihad, to carry out acts of murder. However if you are a faithful muslim and believe the quran is the word of Allah you will envy those who die in jihad.

Would anyone care to argue this further?

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Prove that i support terrorism, bring forth a statement i have made invoking such actions.

Don't sit there and label me and Islam something it is not.

Deep

I already posted your remarks how many times will you repeat yourself. Use your click button and go back and read to satisfy yourself.

You labeled yourself with your comments. I have not labeled Islam but you certainly have.

Originally posted by deevee
There has been a fair bit of coverage in the Canadian media about Muslims who feel unfairly villified by Canadian society. So what do they do? Rather than condem Imams who preach such hate, they condem the society which they claim villifies them and the media which presents their side of the story. Way to get your message out folks.

It is no more the job of Muslim and Arab Canadians and Americans to condemn a statement made by a person who shares a geographic place of origin or religion than it is for all WASP Americans to appologize for the utterings of the hundres of idiotic right wing preachers who dribble insults and profainities. For you to take a brush and paint all Canadians or Americans of Arab or Muslim origin and talk about what "they" do as way to justify the inexcusable mistreatment they have been subjected to on this continent is in my view offensive in the extreme.

I do not believe in the killing of muslims as I have muslim friends I am merely stating reality. That as long as jiihad exists we will be on the offensive from now on and that looks to be a very very long time.

If you actually believe that the US troops have killed between 13000 and 15000 Muslims and Christians in Iraq because of the existence of the precept of Jihad, you need to educate yourself about the facts. There is no relationship between the beliefs and conduct of Iraqis and their devastation by the US military action. It was gratuitous violence and an oil grab. There is absolutely nothing else to it.

For anybody to explain those deaths by reference to their myopic read of koranic text is also truly offensive. The history of Islamic Jurisprudence and Theology is immensely complex and entails a huge number of interpretive discourses, many liberal, many centrist, and some right wing conservative. Right wing conservatives have been the vocal ones in the theological arena because the rest go to liberal or centrist religious or to secular discourse and look at the right wingers from afar. It is not their job to apologize for the others in the same way a Catholic bishop will not be asked to comment on an evangelist's utterings. The attribution of elements of some discourses to all Muslims is nothing but racism and the fact that it is connected by some to an explanation of why people are being slaughtered raises the discourse that has captured you to the level of danger.

[edit on 25-10-2004 by G_Scard]

mohammed teaches that there are 7 heavens and that by your deeds determines where you enter. Paradise is of course the best realm and those who wage jihad are guaranteed to enter. So you see it is very beneficial to a muslim to kill people for the cause of Islam as they insure their place in paradise. This of course is well taught in the Mosques around the world and really puts the nail in the coffin of those who say 'this is just a minority' group of the muslim population. They are simply saying they do not understand the teachings of Islam.

Now many muslims do not have it in them, as they desire to live a more peaceful life than those engaged in jihad, to carry out acts of murder. However if you are a faithful muslim and believe the quran is the word of Allah you will envy those who die in jihad.

Would anyone care to argue this further?

Not at all. I just reread this and realized that there is no possibility of getting through the dark cloud of ignorance that surrounds those statements. It is simply too thick.

What is up with the attack on Canada?

Just a few thoughts.

Hate crime laws. You know, you can't have it both ways. Either we have free speech (free thought) or we can't. So someone says a lot of auwful stuff. So Canada is now a liberal, lame country? Give me a break.

Last time I checked, they disagreed with us. They did so openly, and up front, and without billions in money from an oil for food program.

As for the French, I can't stand their government's position. But does that mean we hate everyone in France?

I want to share a story. I am a moderate Republican. Please don't all hate me at once. I am in a Starbucks, and one of the young men working there sits for his break. We start talking politics. We disagree on EVERY point. We have a very pleasant conversation. We agree to disagree. I enjoyed it! Why has debate devolved into name calling and everything else it has become?

Just some thoughts! Go Canada, I think you all rock. Great neighbor, great beer, and great people. I get to BC when I can!

The Spider

Spider - Thank you very much! Right back at ya... moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats, and actually moderates in general I have no problem with. I feel they are civil and pleasant in their disagreements. Extremists both far left and far right, however... how can you discuss with someone who is convinced he/she is in the absolute right and you're in the absolute wrong?

Here's an anecdote I remember reading in my study of the Middle Ages.

Around 1250, in France under the reign of pious king St. Louis, a knight was standing in front of the entrance of a church with a Jewish merchant. They were having a heated religious discussion. At some point, the knight asked the Jew if he could at least recognize the divinity of the Virgin Mary. The Jew said he could not, so the knight plunged his sword into his stomach. The moral of the story, the monk writing it down said, was that "this is proof that it's impossible to have a discussion with Jews."

How it applies to this board: do you truly think you can have a discussion on sensitive topics if you don't show openness to the other and to having your ideas challenged?

vincere7, I would like to point out the difference between explanation and justification to you.

Example: a man kills his wife. You ask him why? He says "because I had the urge to kill". You go and tell your friend that this man killed because he had the urge to kill. Does that mean that YOU now justify and condone this killing? Or that you are only offering the explanation as stated by the killer?
Do you notice the difference between these two terms?

If I say now that Bin Laden said he got pissed off and started killing because americans parked their troups in Saudi Arabia, that is an EXPLANATION. A justification would be "I agree, he was right to kill because of that reason". Do you notice the difference?

Just because somebody offers you the reason why killings are commited, that doesn't mean we support or condone them.

Now, to something else.

mohammed teaches that there are 7 heavens and that by your deeds determines where you enter. Paradise is of course the best realm and those who wage jihad are guaranteed to enter. So you see it is very beneficial to a muslim to kill people for the cause of Islam as they insure their place in paradise. This of course is well taught in the Mosques around the world and really puts the nail in the coffin of those who say 'this is just a minority' group of the muslim population. They are simply saying they do not understand the teachings of Islam.

There is a fundamental flaw in that statement. It is not killing that gets you to heaven. It is your will to give up your own life to DEFEND your family, country, land or faith, that opens the gate of paradise.

I emphasize the word "defend" here, because according to Qur'an, that is one of two times a killing is allowed. The other would be "in a course of justice", meaning court of law, sentence preformed on individual by an individual (this is slightly off topic here, but if you wish I can elaborate on this too). There is no excuse for slaying of innocents, women and children, and punishment for that is eternal damnation.

Islam sees this life as a temporary inconvenience to sort out good souls from bad ones. The deeds in this life is how you earn your place in afterlife. One of the basics of such life is giving up on pleasures of this life to help others or for greater good. A whole month is devoted to practice of such life, Ramadan. Ramadan is supposed to strenghten your will, faith, and to give you a glimpse of how it is to be poor, not have anything to eat, so you would understand better why it is so important to help the fellow man.

Jihad is a term used to describe the complexity of this inner struggle, and part of it contains the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good: your own life.

So, yes, Jihad does guarantee a place in heaven, only Jihad is not what you (or bin Laden for that matter) think it is. Your understanding of it is very vague, incomplete, inaccurate and very simplified.

Oh, don't worry about it.
Really, that is the religion of peace.
They really don't mean "apes" and "swine" as it sounds. Those are merely pet names.
Remember, when people get beheaded and buildings full of people are destroyed with planes full of people, those who do it are but a very small minority, and they are operating totally alone without the logistical aid or support of any fellow Islamic country.
Relax!
Sleep tight!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Oh, don't worry about it.
Really, that is the religion of peace.
They really don't mean "apes" and "swine" as it sounds. Those are merely pet names.
Remember, when people get beheaded and buildings full of people are destroyed with planes full of people, those who do it are but a very small minority, and they are operating totally alone without the logistical aid or support of any fellow Islamic country.
Relax!
Sleep tight!

Sounds like a plan to me I know I will sleep better with someone in the world carrying 380 tons of boom boom fun around wanting to play catch with it

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Oh, don't worry about it.
Really, that is the religion of peace.
They really don't mean "apes" and "swine" as it sounds. Those are merely pet names.
Remember, when people get beheaded and buildings full of people are destroyed with planes full of people, those who do it are but a very small minority, and they are operating totally alone without the logistical aid or support of any fellow Islamic country.
Relax!
Sleep tight!

Or alternatively spread uninformed
propaganda without questioning
the basis of the statements made
and believe that it is right and holy
to work in the cause of the
slaughter of thousands of innocent
civilians. And then watch the young
men and women sitting half way
accross the world in uniform saying
"I don't understand why they hate us?"
...

and the sad thing is that they don't
understand why they hate us.

Part of it is that we in North America
demonize Muslims and Arabs, spread
racist lies about them that lead to
the justification for killing, interning
or discriminating against millions of
innocent people. If we were to look in
the mirror with clean glasses we
might see a reflection of what others
see and we might be horrified to discover
that we spend more time describing
our own behaviour than the enemy
we have been busily creating.