How Palestinians Can Finally Achieve Independence

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

It’s a very simple idea. When Abbas goes before the UN, he shouldn’t ask for recognition of an independent state. Instead, he should say the following: “Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza 45 years ago, and shows no interest in letting go of the West Bank, in particular. We, the Palestinian people, recognize two things: The first is that we are not strong enough to push the Israelis out. Armed resistance is a path to nowhere. The second is that the occupation is permanent. The Israelis are here to stay. So we are giving up our demand for independence. Instead, we are simply asking for the vote. Israel rules our lives. We should be allowed to help pick Israel’s rulers

What exactly is it about that section that would -----

highlight the plight, oppression, and inequality of Palestinians.

???

Not sure that it is easy to draw an analogy here because the Palestinian situation is fairly unique. The State of Israel was created with set borders. Through wars and takeovers it increased that holding until the 1967 borders were set. They have since then expanded their land grab such that little of what was Palestine is left.

I would ask you to put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian. I have no idea where you live, but where ever it is assume for a minute that your neighbouring country or State is laying claim to areas all around where you live. This country is destroying your livelihood, chopping down your orchards and diverting your water. Would YOU take that sitting down and say - "it is inevitable. Let's just get the vote and get on with it."

I do not believe you can honestly say that you would.

Palestine was a country before the British were forced to grant the State of Israel it's lands out of the Palestinian Protectorate. The real mistake was not to have made Palestine a State as well at that time.

Until there is a State of Palestine I am afraid I cannot see the Palestinian people accepting any solutions that favours the very people who have stolen their land, poisoned or diverted their water, destroyed their crops and livelihood, and denied them the ability to rebuild anything.

I will grant you that Israelis are a very different people to Palestinians and I have seen the marked difference between Israeli lands and Palestinian lands (admittedly back in 1967 just before the 6 day war). But just because the Palestinians are are either not so adept or do not have the means to make blooming fields out of their land does not give Israel the right to steal it.

The solution in the article does not propose a way to achieve independence. If that was offered to you would you agree to it? I know I would not.

reply to post by PuterMan


It seems like your missing the point of the article...

Right now the conflict is seen by many as a territorial war. There is excessive violence from both sides. Because of this, there isn't the proper sympathy for Palestinians.

One issue that people in the West, and America in particular, are willing to get behind is a people who are not being adequetly represented in their government. Palestinians could make this claim quite easily.

By doing so, they would possibly scare Israel into granting them territory as a sovereign state, seeing how Arabs are the majority right now in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza combined.

The call for allowing Palestinians the right to vote internationally would be much louder than the call for creating a new state.

But Israel can't allow this, because they'd essentially be handing the entire state over to an Arab majority.

So, they would theoretically concede a Palestinian independent state.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

It seems like your missing the point of the article...

Maybe. I will read it again tomorrow when it is not so late. That was certainly not my take on it.

It would appear a clever strategy. However it ignores the real goal of the Palestinian Islamists, which is not independence but the destruction of Israel. Jerusalem is intended as the capital of the Caliphate. And there are major problems preventing serious consideration of the call for rights and inclusion.

If Palestinians become Israeli citizens the violence will not come to a halt, it will escalate. Israelis will be in even more danger as the segregation ends and the safety restrictions incompatible with a democratic society are lifted. The opportunity would be used for an expansion of terrorist activity, severely disrupting Israel. There is a reason Israel has constructed separation barriers. And there is no way they can run a modern democracy and include the Palestinians as citizens under these apartheid conditions. It is necessary for security. Israel understands this and will never remove the walls. All they need to do is make that case to the world and it will be seen how an inclusive democracy is not plausible.

So I think this call for voting rights and citizenship, pretending to make peace falls flat for two reasons. One, it could not be seriously considered because of the grave security implications. Two, all Palestinian groups will not unite behind this as a single idea, rocket attacks will continue and allow Israel to easily dismiss the supposed peaceful intentions. Islamists are not interested in independence. It is not their goal.

Without the first part of the plan (rights) seeming viable, there is no way to move to the second part of the plan (forcing a grant of independence).

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
Here's a pretty shrewd article from Bloomberg, that proposes the best strategy I have heard for Gaza..

How Palestinians Can Finally Achieve Independence

a bloomberg point of view? no thanks.

reply to post by infowarrior9970


Come on infowarrior, this is info like any other, and presents a strategy for Palestine that hasn't been talked about much...be a warrior about it.

I think Bloomberg has one of the better op/eds among major news sources...

What's the issue? Love to hear your thoughts on either why Bloomberg's garbage, or the topic of discussion..hopefully both.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


I have re-read the article and make the following observations:

Israel has occasionally shown an interest in freeing Gaza and the West Bank, which came into its possession in 1967

Israel does NOT own Gaza or the West Bank or any other territoty that it has stolen. Let us just be clear about that first of all.

Hamas’s arms supplier, Iran, is working toward nuclear-weapons capability

The writer cannot possibly know this as a fact and is simply spouting American/Israeli rhetoric.

The only country that can grant the Palestinians statehood in Gaza and the West Bank is Israel.

How can Israel 'grant' Palestiniams Statehodd in lands that they do not own and over which technically at least they have no jurisdiction. They are, and will remain, an occupying force.

There is, however, a strategy the Palestinians could implement immediately that would help move them toward independence: They could give up their dream of independence.

Aside from the fact that to even suggest this is ridiculous, why would any Palestinian even contemplating giving up the fight - and no I am not missing the point which I will come to in a moment.

Such a demand would also force Israel into an untenable position; if it accedes to such a demand, it would very quickly cease to be the world’s only Jewish-majority state, and instead become the world’s 23rd Arab-majority state. If it were to refuse this demand, Israel would very quickly be painted by former friends as an apartheid state.

Complete and utter nonsense. You can rest assured that even it Palestinians were given voting rights in their stolen lands they would not EVER be a majority. Israel would see to it that every ex-pat had the vote and probably many more besides who really should have no voting entitlement and all that would happen is that Palestinians would be a lost voice in a lost land.

This is not a solution. It is the sowing of the seeds of a scam to relieve the Palestinians of what little they have left.

I like George Galloways reasoning for a one state solution. I think he makes the most convincing argument

"...Palestine is too small, the issue of the refugees too great, the topographic and demographic cleansing that has occurred has been too extensive. The building of the wall, the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem, the building of the settlements, which are really cities, have all been too extensive to make the separation of this small piece of land into two viable states realistic... When Mandela was asked by the Boers at the end of Apartheid if they could have the Orange Free State as a white state, he said that he didn’t believe in white states or black states, only democratic states. One man, one woman, one vote, one government and everyone equal under the law. And if I believe that in South Africa, why should I change it for Palestine?... One state between the river and the sea is by far the best solution."

israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.source.php?sourceID=011701

Note, video is from 2009.

reply to post by GeneralMishka


Can you quote any call for ethic cleansing by someone that is not in the wacko sphere in Israel? Even hard-liner Feiglin Never called for that or acted on it.

G

Palestinian UN bid passes!

For: 139
Against: 9
Abstain: 41
(I think those are the correct #'s)

Breakdown: