The greatest horror - transdimensional alien ecology.

Originally posted by Mishmashum
reply to post by Druscilla

 

Shamaism? Snorkeling?

I wasn't aware users of psychoactives were psychologically labeled as schizophrenic. Is there a journal publication that establishes the connection?

I would recommend reading the work of anthropologists like Jeremy Narby to get a better understanding of what's obviously a scary subject for you.

edit on 27-11-2012 by Mishmashum because: (no reason given)

I was simply using that as a comparison.

You may, however, be helped by the following:

The majority of Alien Contact reports and claims can be described and attributed to subject specific personally subjective Psychological Phenomenon experiences.

Such stance is supported by:
The Psychology of Alien Contact and Abduction Claims

The Construction of Space Alien Abduction Memories

The Ordinary Nature of Alien Abduction Memories

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens

Transcultural Psychiatry - Sleep Paralysis, Sexual Abuse, and Space Alien Abduction

as well as many other well documented citations, and papers listed in the public domain on the subject.

Further, as supported by above documentation and other studies conducted regarding the phenomenon, the majority of Alien Abduction accounts can be accounted for by Schizotypy and/or Schizotypal Personality Disorder (SPD) as well as several other classifications.

Space alien contact scenarios can be replicated fairly reliably in the lab.
Why is this?
It's because we're all human, and wired essentially the same such that we all have similar predictable reactions to certain chemical brain states as well as the artificial application of drugs.

The wonderful mystery universe these Shamans are exploring is the wonderful mystery universe of the inside of their skulls.

Have a headache? Take an aspirin for predictable results.
Want to see aliens? [SNIP - (T&C)] and some other drug combinations, including shamanistic concoctions, can be applied with fairly predictable results.

All evidence indicates that everything is entirely subjective internal psychological phenomenon.
This can reliably be repeated and confirmed as many times as you like in the lab.
Read the papers.

Quit mouth-breathing gawking and believing all this word of mouth stuff that has zero corroborating data for any of its claims. Read some papers that actually have a basis in reality and quit being so gullible naive.


As far as TRANS ... um ... something Aliens goes there's always this:



What I further find interesting is that I'm asked for proof of my claims (which I've gladly provided) while OP is seemingly blindly accepted as gospel with additional claims that my statements come form "ignorance".

Ignorance is "Not Knowing". Sorry, but, I've supplied quite a bit of "knowing" regarding the subject.

It'll be interesting to see if OP continues to SPAM post after post, one after another below this as they've done 3 times at the time of this edit possibly in hopes of obscuring THIS post behind an additional page to the thread.

hey, sorry i faded last night and started misspelling and losing track of thoughts. its a complex area to focus into, and even more difficult to describe. i havent read any but the first few posts, as i dont have time, but received some urgent messages on protection/removal. so let me respond to that concept - "healing" in shamanism.

the octopus has a consciousness very similar to human consciousness. it was a natural entity, slightly modified by the "higher" aliens to "swim" until it finds a suitable host. the octopus attaches to the cerebral cortex, the part of our consciousness most DIFFERENT from its own, that allows perception into our spectrum of reality.

the octopus seeks hosts with similar "vibrational" patterns. alcoholics, haters, druggies, scummers are a natural attractant for the octopus because of their vibrational field. strangely, followers of common religions who keep their energy field "clean" are not usually hosts.

to protect yourself, and to remove this thing in the early stages, i recommend thinking in higher patterns - listen to classical music, philosophize, pray to whatever God you may worship, send love, optimism, care, and lighter thoughts into your "aura". this disassociates the creature from your consciousness. i recommend a sage smoke bath. consult a native american shaman. keep your vibes high, cut back on alcohol, move away from dark thoughts, try to love. the thing hates love, it operates in a more base [but evolved nonetheless] consciousness. it is not evil, except as a leech is evil.

to the expected fools and howler monkeys who would bellow "show me proof", only a fool doesnt realize that sciences unknowing is much greater than its knowing. if everything science DIDNT know was ruled out, you would have only 1% of consciousness and the universe left to believe in. scientists thought dinosaurs were all grey until 30 years ago...lol science didnt even recognize the universe brought into some light through quantuum physics until very recently. science has its own creation myths, and those who follow its erroneous assumptions wholeheartedly are no less ignorant than any religious fundamentalist. by the virtue of having creation MYTHS with no proof, science is in fact a religion.

as for shamanism being only 10,000 years old. HAHAHAHAH. sorry son, but we came into this world from before-time, when physical perception hadn't even created these universes yet. our myths confirm this. we are BEFORE TIME people. 40,0000 years is only the "hardened" shamanism. we were here before time. we have always been here.

sorry, ill respond to more later. like i said, i only read the first few comments and wanted to let people know their character/spiritual/cultural self work IS a solution to the grotesque oddity of shamanism. their are many other "leeches and ticks" that attach to human auras, but none as nefarious as these things. they are "eyeless, somewhat 4 dimensional, but have vision/perception through non-normal modalities. tough to explain. peace peeps.

characteristics of having one of these things attached is a hardening of your own consciousness, and a sense of something different that feels like you. peeps with these attached will display many of the tendencies of psychopaths, become more hateful toward life in general, and will show little empathy and remorse for other humans. they will appear of like mind to other with the parasite attached. ok, gotta run.

Originally posted by sirbadazz
...to the expected fools and howler monkeys who would bellow "show me proof", only a fool doesnt realize that sciences unknowing is much greater than its knowing. if everything science DIDNT know was ruled out, you would have only 1% of consciousness and the universe left to believe in...

Well, ok. However, that does NOT mean that everything science does not know is automatically true.

You're saying that we should believe something to be true based ONLY on the fact that science does not know everything. I suppose anything may be possible, in the broadest sense of the word. HOWEVER...

...I'm sorry, but I need more than that before I believe something to be true.

reply to post by Druscilla


Nice reading list. I have 56 publications on the psychology of paranormal experiences (from journals like Dissociation, Professional Pyschology, Applied Cognitive Psychology, Consciousness and Cognition, Journal of Abnormal Psychology, Journal of Experimental Psychology, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Perceptual and Motor Skills, Psychological Inquiry, Systems Research and Behavioral Science, etc.). So it should be interesting to see if these add anything new. The first link looks like a synopsis more than an actual study.

Want to see aliens? Dimethyltryptamine and some other drug combinations, including shamanistic concoctions, can be applied with fairly predictable results.

So why would "substance A" regularly produce consistent visions of aliens across cultural boundaries?

.. all this word of mouth stuff that has zero corroborating data for any of its claims.

You just stated that we can reliably see aliens with "substance A." :puzzled:

The question is how do we establish what is imagination versus expanded perception of something that might actually exist? As a test, I would say take two people from different cultures and ask them to report their observations. If there's a consistent vision we either have to conclude the chemical compounds somehow reproduce similar visuals or that there's the possibility of some sort of expanded perception being tapped in the altered state. I would argue, as a category, any conclusions made would be just as applicable for people who lucid dream--and it's apparent connection to Persinger's "God Helmet"--as it is for those who pharmacologically induce the experience.

The problem I think often comes in the form of our bias towards physicality (by default) being real and what's psychological as being imaginary. This goes back to first-principles. If something like math (a completely axiomatic system) is more necessary than physics (See M. Tegmark's Mathematical Universe Hypothesis). Then ideas potentially have a more essential form than physical constructs. Yes, obviously it's the old Plato's Cave argument rehashed for the millionth time. But it is still relevant and I have yet to see a convincing argument, or more importantly a test, for why either position is more compelling than the other.

I like the concept in the OP and it could be used as a metaphor for any number of issues in the human condition. Dru points about psychological ill-health are an example of how easily it can be subjected to interpretation. Surprisingly absent from the thread are those who might go for the Biblical view and call them demons or maybe Djinn?

In terms of shamanism, I agree with Soylent. There's more to it than psychological aberration in my opinion. I recommend a book by Bruce Parry (Tribe) wherein he describes his travels amongst a variety of tribal cultures and the experiences he encountered. The role of shaman was and is cohesive to the smooth-running of tribal cultures in the way they act as carriers of old folklore and oral histories. They could arbitrate feuds and link one generation with the preceding ones through their traditions.

I'll take science over most things and yet remain mindful that science has developed from these same tribal cultures we all once were. All that 'standing on the shoulders of giants' didn't begin in classical antiquity or with the advent of Newtonian physics. The creative urge that nestles within us all is, in my opinion, something that is tapped into by scientists and shamans alike...even poor writers.

Firmly back on topic - if it was ever discovered that consciousness existed in some exotic environment in parallel with our own, perhaps there would be an eco-system where we were not on top of the food pyramid? Who knows? Until, or if, that time comes, I tend towards the understanding that the accounts and interpretations of shaman are expressions of curiosity and attempts to explain life within their own limits of articulating them.

reply to post by Mishmashum
I'd better remind you that talking about psychedelics is against the T&Cs and won't be accepted on ATS. Neither will any discussion of whether 'substance A' is a 'drug' or not so leave it there.

Please snip the references from your post before I ask for a staff-member to do it for you.

Thank you.

reply to post by sirric


why do you sleep sideways on the bed. You are doing it wrong.

Do you think that this octopus entity is known by TPTB? And that is why an octopus was in the closing ceremony of the 2012 Olympics?? There was a DJ inside the head and that octopus was on top of a truck and was air-blown up.
That octopus was very weird in its concept and I did wonder where that idea had come from!

Also is this entity the same as the parasitic entity Shamans know about? The 'one celled thing' in an old Star Trek program where Spock was mind melding with one and Spock went mad?

Hmmmm.

I think you're on to something with the astral octopus. (would make an awesome psychadelic band name)

The show Futurerama used to have something very similar. Brain slugs that would control the host's brain and body. Notice the show got cancelled after a while? I say it's because they were talking about the brain slugs too much and the execs at the network were themselves controlled by the astral octopus and cancelled the show so that nobody would catch on.

I know they brought the show back for a little while but I ask you. Where are the brain slugs? Astral octopus theorists say it may be because the writers for the show are now too also controlled by the astral octopus.

reply to post by Mishmashum


The problem with all these claims of going off to some magical somewhere lies in exchange of information.

Take any X number of shamans, yogis, gurus, witch doctors, voodoo priests, witches, and anyone else that makes claims of astral/dimensional/otherworldly travel.

Put said X number of subjects in separate locked rooms with ample preferential supply of roots, herbs, concoctions, incense, robes, mandalas, ravi shankar music; anything and everything they think they might need to blast them off into whatever magical wonderland they claim they can visit.

Additionally, give each subject a unique identifier; nothing that can be inferred by extrapolation of personal identifier.
EX: subject 001 identifier is "Red 57". Subject 002 identifier is - "Dragonfly". Subject 003 identifier is - picture of box with spiral inside.

Each identifier is unique, and each identifier is known only to the applicable subject, randomly distributed in sealed, ambiguously coded envelopes where the corresponding codes are tagged to each subject file for later verification, but to blind against researcher influence during distribution.

Each subject is instructed to memorize their unique identifier, and then relay said identifier in an exchange of information when they blast off into whatever magical place they claim to be blasting off to.

Subjects get given green light to meditate, dose, dance, trance, self hypnotize and employ whatever method they require to reach ethereal magical candy land, and have several hours of isolated lock down to attempt the transmission of their unique identifier to any number of other subjects.

Countdown reaches zero. Doors get opened to puffs of smoke and exclamations of man dude wow man dude wow far-out, and subjects are interviewed in isolation regarding their "travels".
They often detail extrapolations of symbolisms based on their own unique identifier, but, never is there an actual exchange of any valid information indicatory in the least that anyone went anywhere anyone else did to commune anything.

They simply convinced themselves there was some communion, when in fact whatever trip they took was just the the vast universe of their own brain jelly.

Please provide data detailing successful transmission and communal duplex or multiplex exchange of rigidly blinded and controlled unique data that can not be extrapolated, all transmitted inside one of these supposed transdimensional, astral, whatever planes of magical universe elevated vibration existence.
Show us such data and we might have something to talk about.

reply to post by Druscilla

The problem with all these claims of going off to some magical somewhere lies in exchange of information.

Agreed. There are a number of cryptographically secure protocols that could be used to authenticate information exchange.

They often detail extrapolations of symbolisms based on their own unique identifier, but, never is there an actual exchange of any valid information indicatory in the least that anyone went anywhere anyone else did to commune anything.

Reading the Stanford SRI remote sensing project FOIA documents and the publications from TMI suggests fuzzy matches and abstraction over unique 100% hits. Going through the Star Gate documentation I have yet to find a single case where I was 100% sold the viewer knew exactly what they were looking at. Yet at the same time there is often enough detail that it is hard to imagine how they could have even got as remotely close (pun intended) as they did (Paul Smith's book is a good read). The same applies to TMI and their Gateway process. When dealing with uncertainty I look at the problem the same way we look at all hard problems. Statistically.

I am sure, since you have read the literature, you know of the ganzfeld experiment. Radin's numbers are significant. Of course folks like Blackmoore balk and simply reiterate Radin's name like it was a dirty word (first principles anyone?). So I'm sure when Bem published his "Feeling the Future" paper back in 2010 in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology there was a public outcry not so much because of the contents of the paper but because of where it was published and the perceived assault this created on what is currently deemed as worthy of legitimate investigation.

I am still on the fence. Comparing the consistency between shamanic narratives, RV test cases, OBE experiments, etc. I think there is enough congruence that it is premature to commit either way especially with all the frauds and know-it-all huxsters content to say they know the truth in the absence of 100% certainty.

One thing I am willing to state unequivocally though, is that more test are in order. And I would prefer those tests be done by people who don't care about the results.

Originally posted by Imtor
reply to post by Druscilla

 

Schizophrenia? That's starting to get offensive, you are insulting people who have other means of acquiring knowledge and know more than you. I don't know much of shamanizm though I do know they DRUG themselves and do things like sort of - if you eat certain kinds of MUSHROOMS. I've no idea what they see is just imagination but that's how they see things, provided we can do things with the human brain, things that you may not even imagine.

Shamanizm is no Shizophrenia... Oh gawd I think some need to get more open minded the hard way.

Actually i pointed out the problems with your statement. They are taking mind altering drugs, of course they are gonna see stuff. Have you never done drugs? Most have not and really have no ideas what they do other then what science states. Example of what you can possibly see.

My cousin decided to take 4 shrooms before going hunting.. 9 hours and very concerned family later we found him a mile and half from his truck sitting up against a tree. All he could say was he had been saved by a angel. Later after we got him home he told us that a storm had brewed up and suddenly there was a flash of light and "something" pushed him out of the way of a rather large tree limb that fell. He then told us that a angel floated to him bathed in a bright light and smiled before disappearing. now before you go flying off the handle saying "well see he saw a angel" him and i later went back because he was missing his pistol that he brough with him "just incase. we found it 3 feet away from where we found him along with the large branch and a rather large root sticking out of the ground. The root looked like it had obviously been tripped over.. Dislodged dirt and scrap marks on the root itself lead me to conclude the tweeked out fool was tripping so bad that he tripped over the root when the lightning struck the branch and fell backwards thus saving hisself from being pinned under it. When i pointed this out to him and tried to explain what it looked like had happened he got angry with me and refused to admit that it was even a possiblity. To this day he tells the story of the angel.. of course leaving out the shrooms and the root involved. Also to this day he does not speak to me no more.

Drugs have effects on the mind and i find it rather debatable that any knowledge could be garnered from their use at all. The state your mind is in during the use is not its natural state so why would anyone think that anything they saw while high would be real is beyond me but a portal to another dimension this is not.

reply to post by Mishmashum


Thanks for that.
We need more people with education and intelligence enough to effectively argue at least the fence position.
Too often this devolves into the old subjective "I know what I saw and everything is true because I say so" stance as well as under educated claims that scientific interrogation is incapable of having the barest facility for testing or realizing the tiniest of positive indicatory data.

Time and again claims have been studied, but, time and again, at best, results are inconclusive for any super powers, while most common results point to these claimed phenomenon as entirely ascribable to internal personal subjective private psychological experiences.

Give us indication of else-wise supported by complementary multiple source data sets adhering to rigidly enforced blinds and control set standards that lack ambiguity and opportunity for charlatan mentalist stage magician cold reading to influence results and you'll have some eyebrows raised.

You've offered some good allusions and mention of certain works, but, even there, results can interpret ambiguous where methodology, control sets and blinds may not have been as rigorously strict as should have been.

On a side-note of entertainment regarding psychics and charlatans, there's a fun movie recently out, somewhat under the radar titled Red Lights which follows a pair of professional academic skeptics that research supposedly psychic phenomenon, typically debunking every case as trickery.


It's an excellent psych thriller containing bits for both camps with a nice twist added in as well.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by Mishmashum

 

Thanks for that.
We need more people with education and intelligence enough to effectively argue at least the fence position.
Too often this devolves into the old subjective "I know what I saw and everything is true because I say so" stance as well as under educated claims that scientific interrogation is incapable of having the barest facility for testing or realizing the tiniest of positive indicatory data.

Time and again claims have been studied, but, time and again, at best, results are inconclusive for any super powers, while most common results point to these claimed phenomenon as entirely ascribable to internal personal subjective private psychological experiences.

Give us indication of else-wise supported by complementary multiple source data sets adhering to rigidly enforced blinds and control set standards that lack ambiguity and opportunity for charlatan mentalist stage magician cold reading to influence results and you'll have some eyebrows raised.

You've offered some good allusions and mention of certain works, but, even there, results can interpret ambiguous where methodology, control sets and blinds may not have been as rigorously strict as should have been.

On a side-note of entertainment regarding psychics and charlatans, there's a fun movie recently out, somewhat under the radar titled Red Lights which follows a pair of professional academic skeptics that research supposedly psychic phenomenon, typically debunking every case as trickery.

It's an excellent psych thriller containing bits for both camps with a nice twist added in as well.

I'm interested to know why you turn up on these threads. You clearly have no interest in these subjects, but you sure do enjoy calling people ignorant and uneducated. Is it your ego?

reply to post by sirbadazz


I've seen a picture of myself with a grey type, flat head entity sticking straight out of my head.

I've seen a picture of a purple translucent being with spiky elf-like ears right behind me, with its arms wrapping around me as if it were hugging me,

I've seen a small black dot, orb in my vision (not sun spots) that even appears on television screens and computer screens that others have seen too.

I've seen a black, slug-like entity while in a deep meditative trance, upon opening my eyes.

I've seen a purple-blue, octopus like thing that was mostly square, with legs on each corner, floating around, while under heavy trance.


What's my prognosis Doc?

Originally posted by CallYourBluff
I'm interested to know why you turn up on these threads. You clearly have no interest in these subjects, but you sure do enjoy calling people ignorant and uneducated. Is it your ego?

1. Look at the ATS motto: Deny Ignorance.
Ignorance (not used as a derogatory) defines as "Lack of Knowing".
Often enough, we get some pie in the sky claim with zero corroborating verifiable Empirical Data. On the other side of that, there's a wealth of "Knowing" in studies that have interrogated these very phenomenon.
In the spirit of Denying Ignorance, ie; lack of knowing, it's obligatory well studied contrary evidence come to presentation.

You may also profit from reading This Post by another member. Who's calling who Ignorant? Hmm? Door swings both ways, and when/if I use the word, I'm using it properly with contextual validity.

2. ATS is an open, public, free forum where anyone can express their opinion for any or no reason at all regardless the relevance and/or familiarity with the topical discussion. You and I, and anyone else for that matter are more than welcome to articulate our knowledge, lack of it, and even feelings as they can be applied to any topical discussion so long as they adhere to board T&C.

3. How old do you think I am?
I was in Full-Time University (16 hours of classes and labs enrollment) at 16.
I won't say what my academic accreditation entails, but, I went to school for well over a decade plus some.
From there, I've embarked on a successful independent career where I essentially make my own hours, attending to a variety of projects and interests with liberties extending to taking two or three vacations a year at most any leisure I desire.
Care to reconsider my age?

4. You're inferring enjoyment. While there's a certain degree of entertainment in the demographic of socio-psychological stew to observe on these boards, I'd much rather have topical discussion on a level where I actually have to think about it. Please, feel free to raise the bar above the typical purely anecdotal subjective and poorly speculative sloppy demonstrations of atrocious facility for logic.

5. If you have a problem, alert a Moderator. Crying about your distaste for any personality in public is worthless. Your friends don't want to hear it and your enemies definitely don't care, and, if anything, might derive enjoyment out of your consternation and discomfit.

Edit: Re: #3: I misread your statement regarding EGO as "age". I'm not infallible.
Regarding Ego; I've no shame in having a high self worth. If you've low self worth, that's not my problem. If you bring up arrogance, it's not arrogance when you're right. Prove me wrong. Slap me down. I'm actually more than happy to get knocked down and proven wrong. Please, provide a concise, relevant argument to counter any I put forward anywhere. I look forward your retort and any data sets you offer.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by Mishmashum
reply to post by Druscilla

 

Shamaism? Snorkeling?

I wasn't aware users of psychoactives were psychologically labeled as schizophrenic. Is there a journal publication that establishes the connection?

I would recommend reading the work of anthropologists like Jeremy Narby to get a better understanding of what's obviously a scary subject for you.

edit on 27-11-2012 by Mishmashum because: (no reason given)

I was simply using that as a comparison.

You may, however, be helped by the following:

The majority of Alien Contact reports and claims can be described and attributed to subject specific personally subjective Psychological Phenomenon experiences.

Such stance is supported by:
The Psychology of Alien Contact and Abduction Claims

The Construction of Space Alien Abduction Memories

The Ordinary Nature of Alien Abduction Memories

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens

Transcultural Psychiatry - Sleep Paralysis, Sexual Abuse, and Space Alien Abduction

as well as many other well documented citations, and papers listed in the public domain on the subject.

Further, as supported by above documentation and other studies conducted regarding the phenomenon, the majority of Alien Abduction accounts can be accounted for by Schizotypy and/or Schizotypal Personality Disorder (SPD) as well as several other classifications.

Space alien contact scenarios can be replicated fairly reliably in the lab.
Why is this?
It's because we're all human, and wired essentially the same such that we all have similar predictable reactions to certain chemical brain states as well as the artificial application of drugs.

The wonderful mystery universe these Shamans are exploring is the wonderful mystery universe of the inside of their skulls.

Have a headache? Take an aspirin for predictable results.
Want to see aliens? [SNIP - (T&C)] and some other drug combinations, including shamanistic concoctions, can be applied with fairly predictable results.

All evidence indicates that everything is entirely subjective internal psychological phenomenon.
This can reliably be repeated and confirmed as many times as you like in the lab.
Read the papers.

Quit mouth-breathing gawking and believing all this word of mouth stuff that has zero corroborating data for any of its claims. Read some papers that actually have a basis in reality and quit being so gullible naive.


As far as TRANS ... um ... something Aliens goes there's always this:

What I further find interesting is that I'm asked for proof of my claims (which I've gladly provided) while OP is seemingly blindly accepted as gospel with additional claims that my statements come form "ignorance".

Ignorance is "Not Knowing". Sorry, but, I've supplied quite a bit of "knowing" regarding the subject.

It'll be interesting to see if OP continues to SPAM post after post, one after another below this as they've done 3 times at the time of this edit possibly in hopes of obscuring THIS post behind an additional page to the thread.

edit on 27-11-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

You bring up a lot of good points, but to me it's a little bit of this, and a little bit of:

This person is experiencing certain "Strange" or "out of normal" things that may be harmful to others or themself. They then find a surface answer (some basic understanding of the brain chemistry going on, neurotransmitter influence) and then they medicate to mess with the neurotransmitters.

Not to discount the field of psychiatry/psychology, it's important, but saying that it's all just subjective experience and brain chemicals, is a bit of a narrowing of the band of very real possibilities, or so I subjectively believe.

IT IS, however, a very useful tactic or detour to fix or at least band-aid some of this more unknown, or less accepted "known" sources of these strange experiences.

I'm sure you're already aware of this view point

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
I had a dream about 6 montha ago that tenatacle like vines were growing and spreading unseen through the world and the vines penetrate humans suddenly causing the human being to jolt and stiffen. After that vine oscillates is a way to control the emotion states of its hosts. Some very limited number of people were immune and the vine couldnt stay in their body, it was rejected from the body. These people who were immune were banding togther and trying to form a group. I was in this group and asked to help some survivor who was on the ground crying it was strange. Only remember dream becuase of your post.

edit on 27-11-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

Sounds like a Futurama episode I've watched before.