Xmas is coming! Time to let the Santa myth go.

reply to post by spacedoubt

Originally posted by spacedoubt
reply to post by 1/2 Nephilim

 

As far as I can tell, all Holiday's secular and non secular are based on nostalgia, one way or another.
They typically celebrate something from the past. Many have some not-so-accurate stories to go along with them.
If you think it's harmful to tell the Santa story, that's ok. Many others think it's just fine to share that story, then let them "in" on it, when they get older. When you come over for dinner, we'll tell everyone about Uncle Scrooge.

lol, we'll tell them about Uncle Scrooge indeed. Speaking of not-so-accurate stories the 4th of July doesn't seem worth celebration so much anymore either. We got our freedom from the Brit's! and lost it to the corporations...

No worries, I'm not going to go riding around yelling into schoolyards during recess "Santa isn't real! Mwu HaHa!" This is just a subject I figure worth bringing up to new parents or.. anyone who plans to breed in the future. I'm not opposed to New Years or Birthdays, just holidays based on lies. Of all the great achievements and wonderful true stories we could share with kids and celebrate about acts of true good will and the nature of self sacrifice.. and we choose some random religious figure who hooked a few people up with some gold and don't even mention the acts of the actual person. Instead the MSM reports how they just saw him flying over Ohio and "Kids, ya better get the milk and cookies ready because if there is one thing we did know about him! It's that he liked those.."

Edit: likes* those. He likes those.. I forgot he was immortal for a second.

See the effects of Christmas with every reply here telling you that you're wrong to remove a kids innocence?

There is no way around it.
All the other kid's parents guilt tripping you here and at school combined with all the commercials in the world will prevent it.

The real reason is money.

You think that kid wouldn't be just as happy going outside to play in the dirt on Christmas if you didn't tell him what Christmas even was?

Either way I really don't care. Celebrate, don't celebrate. Whatever. I'm not having kids.

Christmas is a sorry excuse to be nice and giving once a year.
Especially since it takes a Fat man in a red suit to do it.
That feeling that comes with the "Christmas spirit" should be a year long endeavour.
But it's not because of money.

Some of you must live in a different world than I do. Not everything is black and white, and lying isn't always bad. I am grateful that my parents lied to me about Santa, and I'm sure your girlfriend is grateful when you tell her that she isn't fat. The idea that "lying is bad, period", is nothing more than a weak human construct, people who aren't able to see the world is filled with shades of grey. Absolute right and wrong doesn't exist. And it seems that the OP doesn't have a problem with Santa, his problem is that Christmas isn't 24/7, 365. Great idea in a utopian world, but it's not practical, people have things to do and families can't all get together and hang out every day.

Believing in santa is apart of our culture. How bland would your childhood have been if it weren't for believeing in santa? Mine would of been very bland. I can't think of a time in my adult life where I felt that over joyous feeling like I felt as a child on christmas morning.

when a kid finds out something they believe isn't real they experience loss, its good to learn to cope with loss on something like santa rather than having them learn to cope with loss when a relative passes away. If you've experienced loss then maybe it'll be easier to deal with at an older age?


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reply to post by davespanners

Originally posted by davespanners
One of the stories my Dad always tells about my childhood is that one Christmas while opening my gifts I asked my parents "Did Santa bring me all of these?" To which they replied "Yes" I then asked my dad "So why didn't YOU buy me any presents then?"

I can still just about remember the excitement of Christmas Eve, not being able to sleep, waking my parents up extra early so I could open some gifts before anyone else, but I really can't remember at what age I stopped believing in Santa or if I ever actually really believed in him at all.

One of my huge pet peeves is lying, even small lies of omission or "white lies" drive me crazy I'm not sure we can class telling kids about Santa as harmful though, we don't see lines of adults in the psychiatrist office complaining of being affected by Post Traumatic Santa Disorder or have many people having flash backs over their Santa trauma every time they hear Sleigh Bells

edit on 26/11/12 by davespanners because: (no reason given)

Yeahhh, thats another thing. I can remember when I actually believed it and most of the gifts were labeled from Santa but a few would have family members names on them and I can remember running up and hugging they're neck so tight. Theres no need to be THAT humble, being humble in getting your kids the best toys you can and not telling them how hard you had to work to get them those things, thats being humble. Letting them know you would do anything for them without letting them know what all it requires, thats all the humbleness there needs to be imho, Santa doesn't deserve the credit.

Your right that there are no disorders directly related, lol.. but those early years truly are the most detrimental. Its like the stuff we don't remember is whats wrong with us and we spend our whole lives trying to figure out why were such a mess. I can't speak for everyone.. and I didn't take it very hard when I found out the truth about it but ya gotta imagine some kids do take it a little hard. Theres no telling what kind of impact it has on them later in life. I know this much though, there are alot of liars in the world and this HUGE WHITE LIE in everyones face, that everyone plays along with, might have a little something to do with it.

The holidays were way more fun when I believed in magic and miracles. Now it's filled with over stressed, over worked people constant assault of massive consumerism. You have to work really hard to feel the "spirit of the holidays" as an adult.

Originally posted by OMsk3ptic
....The idea that "lying is bad, period", is nothing more than a weak human construct, people who aren't able to see the world is filled with shades of grey. Absolute right and wrong doesn't exist.

the world may in fact be in shades of grey. but "being able" to make an appropriate assessment of reality, its subjective (not absolute) rightness and wrongness, relies on NOT GREY information. the less grey the better.

your girlfriend asks you that question in an effort to manipulate the dynamics of your relationship. if you are a willing party to such a grey area for your relationship, so be it.

however, the mind of a child is manipulated with sweets and toys to accept that reality can be fabricated. this is of course not known to them at the time. and the irony is that, by the time the lie is revealed, the mind is already well enough conditioned to accept it as a perfectly natural thing to do....they grow up thinking that manipulation is the way to go "hey, does my butt look big?"

I am completely in awe of the resounding answer in this thread:...

..."well of course we lie to our children, and it is wonderful!"

reply to post by 1/2 Nephilim



So I'm in first grade...I remember sitting down at the same time as my bestie. I don't remember what led up to this point but I can still see her face looking at me, close.

She says ' You know Santa's not real right?'

Of course I said 'Yeaaa duh' Or something like that

I pretended to 'believe' in Santa for another year or two to make my Mum happy
She still believes

I was okay. She is the only person I would ever trust.

Nice Post Nephilim

reply to post by 1/2 Nephilim


THIS -------->>>

Theres no telling what kind of impact it has on them later in life. I know this much though, there are alot of liars in the world and this HUGE WHITE LIE in everyones face, that everyone plays along with, might have a little something to do with it.

reply to post by tgidkp


LOL, you're entitled to that opinion, but I don't share it. And I don't share your idea that lying is always bad, I think many times it can be good. So yes, there will be times I lie to my kid, and yes, sometimes it is wonderful. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Originally posted by boymonkey74
reply to post by OMsk3ptic

 

Yeah I remember me and my Brother hearing the reindeers bells, turned out it was my mum on a ladder outside our window.
I forgot about that until I read your post cheers dude

.

Seee this is why this is good! Boymonkey up there reminded my of the the time I caught a gimps of Santa walking in the snow through the window. That was so awesome. Turned out to be my Uncle

reply to post by OMsk3ptic


I don't know how you get absolutism out of me saying that if you and yer girl want to lie to each other about her butt then it is fine by me. but lying to a child is not. I have taken two opposite positions: not absolute.

but, just so we're clear here, you're saying that "bad information" can be "good information"?

Orwell had something to say about that kind of doublespeak.

reply to post by tgidkp


So what are you really saying here? Americans fall for all of the bs the media and government sell them, and their gullibility stems from The Santa Clause conspiracy?

reply to post by davespanners


My parents were evil. They told me that Santa was real - but that he didn't work for free and that they had to pay for everything he brought. In this manner they could then spend the seven months, after, until my birthday in July, saying "Can't have that... We're still paying Santa back."

Yeah, I was raised by Republicans.

reply to post by Hefficide


OMG I tell my kids something very similar!!! Maybe I'm a Republican

reply to post by MidnightSunshine


yes, if you wanted to make it sound trite and petty, you could phrase it like that.

or, you might say ...

the minds of modern society are conditioned from a very young age to accept cognitive dissonance as a way of life, the "Santa Claus conspiracy" being a major contribution.

reply to post by MidnightSunshine


Do you really? Why? Why not just tell them that Presents and toys are only for Christmas and Birthdays? With all the children my parents had, first of all....we were only given 3 gifts tops, usually 2, but if it was a good year for my dad and his job (we grew up in the 80s) then it was 3. At Birthdays, the party was our gift from our parents, but if school friends were invited then of course they brought presents. Family members would chip in with money. You either saved it, or you could spend it, if there was something you really really wanted. But other than that....throughout the year ... we were taught that we were even allowed to ask for anything when we went to the store. We were not there for a shopping adventure, we were there because mom had to get groceries or house supplies and that was it. I think in your situation, I personally would either omit the Santa entirely, or instead of making him the bad guy because you have to pay him back, just tell your child, sorry, you have enough toys and you need to wait till Birthday., Christmas, etc. Teach them to be happy with what they have and teach them that they don't need 100s of toys to have fun. Thats just my opinion for what its worth, obviously as we see from this thread, everyone has their own way and their own traditions, memories, thoughts and opinions. But I have to say, telling your child that they can't have something because you have pay Santa back, does not sound very Christmas Magical to me LOL.

Originally posted by tgidkp
reply to post by MidnightSunshine

 

yes, if you wanted to make it sound trite and petty, you could phrase it like that.

or, you might say ...

the minds of modern society are conditioned from a very young age to accept cognitive dissonance as a way of life, the "Santa Claus conspiracy" being a major contribution.

I don't want to make it sound any way. I'm just trying to understand you. I hear what you're saying, but I don't see the point in arguing. You can fight about it forever, but like it or not, we still...gonna have Santa.

reply to post by Nkinga


lol Sorry I was joking. My kids don't get gifts much other than Christmas and birthdays. They are very unspoiled. You know that kid crying at the store? Not mine.

It was a joke, I find the subject matter amusing and fun
Merry Christmas!

For us it was a game. For as long as I can remember, I understood it was a game, it was make-believe, but I wanted to play it!

I don't remember any exact point at which I learned Santa wasn't real- I just slowly lost interest in pretending.

I never felt my parents lied to me. For once they thought of me and tried to be nice or have fun with me- I appreciated that! (...now, if only they'd lied a bit about their sexual experimentation , drug trips, etc...... honesty did me more damage than Santa games!)