Outrage after popular students are found murdered in man's basement after 'they robbed his home on

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posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 

well just keep on fighting it, you know the horse analogy or the duck one.
take your pick.

i still stand by what i said, and in the end i think it will bear out.
edit on 28-11-2012 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 04:40 PM
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Looks like those kids could be responsible for another break in and they seemed to have a addiction to prescription pills.

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posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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I'm all for gun rights. I'm all for a man's right to protect what is his, even though I live in a country where shooting an intruder will in all likelihood land you in prison, regardless of the circumstances.

Presuming for a second that the state in question has 'castle law' on the books, which grants a man the right to protect what is his by any means necessarily. He threw any solid defense he could have had when he a) by his own admission fired more shots than were necessary, and b) HID THE FREAKING CORPSES. OF TWO TEENAGERS.

Now, I don't know if the guy wounded them, and then executed them in cold blood, but that certainly seems like it could be the case, given some of the statements involved.

Overall an unfortunate incident. Maybe some restraint would have seen a less tragic outcome.
edit on 11/28/2012 by Monger because: (no reason given)
edit on 11/28/2012 by Monger because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by hounddoghowlie
 

Fighting what?

I'm just saying that Smith's story has so many holes that a simple break-in doesn't cover it. Your "get even" theory is something that I also proposed earlier in the thread but if this is the truth then it makes his actions no worst than if he had killed them in public because he was never in any danger. He's still SOL.

By the way the guy was an expert in security. He was in charge of plans and specifications of government buildings so why wasn't he able to protect his home from burglars?



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by daskakik

By the way the guy was an expert in security. He was in charge of plans and specifications of government buildings so why wasn't he able to protect his home from burglars?



He worked in security for the State Department apparently, but that doesn't mean he was a expert in security. His actions here decidedly speak otherwise.

I've done contract security for quite a number of years now, everything from corporate to executive protection to some truly hair raising crap where you get to whiff lots of cordite. In that time I've met with, worked with, and interacted with lots of security personnel, but not all of them were by any means "professionals". Some, even many, ARE "professionals", but there are others who are... something less than that. Cowboys. Rock Stars. Glory hounds. Call them what you will, but "competent" doesn't enter their description.

My wife and I were discussing that very thing just a few minutes ago. She said it sounds like PTSD to her, but I don't think so. Anyone who has competently pursued that line of work for as long as he is alleged to have been in it will have a different plan - several different plans, in fact. PTSD may cause the occasional freak out, but it doesn't generally alter your basic training, and this fellows actions didn't display much in the way of basic training and security mindset. One of the cardinal rules is to ALWAYS have escape routes, the more the better, with a minimum of 3 in case the first two fail due to unforeseeable circumstances. As a security professional of that long standing, this cat ought to have had CCTV cameras at strategic points, and a way out of that basement instead of using it for a death trap in case he got cornered there. As near as I can tell, his security plan involved his ears and a Rambo attitude.

Questions raised in my mind:

1) WHY were they able to access his basement at all while he was in it, and knew they were about? WHY could they get the door open at all, if that's where his "workspace" was?

2) WHY did he have no monitoring equipment wired in to his "workspace"? I'm not big on ADT and the like, because I don't see a reason to place MY security in the hands of strangers. You can bet I've got eyes on the outside, though, which I can monitor myself - not to mention motion sensors and window and door sensors and the like, as well as a couple of large, angry, irascible four-footed burglar alarms - they don't depend on electricity! If I'm going to have a "workspace", there's going to be a way to barricade it until the cavalry arrives.

3) WHY did he have no exits, thus allowing himself to get "cornered" with no apparent escape? At a minimum, if he were intent on defense of the violent sort, he should have had a way out of there so that he could either fight or fly - flank the bastards from a direction they weren't expecting, thinking he was holed up in the basement, or just scoot into the weeds and dial 911 on a cell phone, pop some popcorn, and watch the show.

In my last house, my "workspace" was upstairs, rather than in the basement. I had two exits from there, one front, one rear. and a narrow stair approaching it so that potential assailants had to approach one at a time. There was an overwatch on the stairs where I could have fired from that they wouldn't be expecting, and would have been hard pressed to return fire. If I didn't feel particularly violent that day, I could have skittered out front or rear and left the house to them. and had tape backup of their activities for the prosecutor later.

My point is - options. After a while in that line of work, you learn to cultivate them. If he were an "expert", why did he have no options beyond the Ramboesque road to Valhalla? Some times that is necessary, but if it isn't why put YOURSELF at risk?

I'm thinking if he was in Security, then he was a Cowboy, a Rock Star, a Poser. The field tends to attract that sort, with a chip on their shoulder and delusions of adequacy. State, as well as some other outfits (Blackwater/Xe, cough, cough, among others) has more than their fair share of that type of "expert".

My wife also made the observation that he treated this incident as if he were expecting a "hit". Personally, if I expect that type of visitor, I'm going to want LOTS more options, to afford greater mobility and an ability to flank or fly. that's just me, though. This guys training and expertise seems to have been lacking if he was a security "expert".

ETA: One final thought - a Ruger Mini-14 for INSIDE work in your own house? Seriously? A handgun with frangible ammo and/or a shotgun would have been far better choices of a "professional". There are wall penetration issues to consider, although the noise is gonna deafen you either way. Assault-rifle calibers are for outdoors play, involving greater distances and wider-open spaces.


edit on 2012/11/28 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by TFCJay
Great post OP.

These young adults would still be alive had they not been criminals.

S+F



Technically they'd still be alive if the gun owner hadn't owned a gun. But still, stupid breaking into people's houses in gun-mad USA.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:01 PM
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But still, reading the cold statements from the murderer, he sounded like he enjoyed the murders. Making 'finishing shots' and a 'good clean kill' - what a psycho.

If he knew they were unarmed, why didn't he just scare them and let them go?

This guy deserves his fate.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:03 PM
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Yeah, not everything is adding up for me either. Two things in particular...

1. The hiding the bodies part as others have mentioned. Even in panic mode, what could possibly go through your mind that makes you want to hide the bodies for so long if you are innocent?


2. The laughing... is this not absurd to anyone else?? Who the hell would head down the stairs towards the direction of gunshots you just heard and start laughing?

Someone is lying or there were DEFINITELY drugs involved... I really hope the police did a proper investigation this time...
edit on 28-11-2012 by solarjetman because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:08 PM
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Recommendation for future robbery victims: Admit nothing. Deny everything. Demand proof.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 

The exact quote from his brother earlier in the thread was:


“He was a security officer for the State Department over the past two decades and was responsible for plans and specifications of State Department buildings worldwide,” Bruce Smith said.

Who else but an expert would be handed that kind of job? I mean even if he was just a glory hound he would understand security enough to not have his place robbed 8 times before this event.


My wife also made the observation that he treated this incident as if he were expecting a "hit". Personally, if I expect that type of visitor, I'm going to want LOTS more options, to afford greater mobility and an ability to flank or fly. that's just me, though. This guys training and expertise seems to have been lacking if he was a security "expert".

Not if the problem was not in fact a security issue. Maybe he wasn't expecting a "hit" but waiting to carry one/two out. Since facts are lacking then anyone's idea is just as valid.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:25 PM
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Text
These "model students" performed a Home Invasion with intent to do an illegal/unlawful act. Whatever the reason, there were consequences. Unfortunate that their stupidity lost their lives. Dying of stupidity is not the way to go. Many home invasions that take place in America have fatal results for the resident of the home. Many women are beaten, raped, and murdered. Whole families have been slaughtered by person or persons unlawfully burglarizing a private residence. These young people may or may not have been taught right from wrong, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it's wrong. And these days, people are tired of being victimized.
As for the homeowner, something isn't right here. Normally the resident is freaked out and they call the police. As for shooting too many times, there are many police officers that kill innocent bystanders by shooting a suspect dozens of times. The point is, he didn't follow a normal procedure. Protect your life and property, then call the police. I feel bad for the families of all involved. Even the best parents raise the worst of kids. Everything we do is a choice, it's that simple. Good, bad, or indifferent. LS



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:26 PM
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This story has many sides to the coin. So I wont get into details here.

I will say this however. Let this be a lesson to the youth of this world.. Do not go breaking into peoples homes!

You might break into a place where you are breaking into someones home who is very unstable. Is your life really worth any trinkets or money you might nab?

This is a good thiing IMO. This is the best way to deture break ins. If there is a chance you are going to get killed in the process, then it might make people think about breaking into someones home.

I feel everyone has a right to use DEADLY force when protecting your home. Its the basis and the root to why we own guns here in the USA. We have the right to bare arms to protect our homes, to protect that which is ours. If people could just break in and rob you. DO not think the cops are going to catch them. Its a laugh. 80% of all break ins go unsolved. The only time cops get their perp, is when the perp is being totally stupid and get caught in the act. Those who make it out.. Most of the time get off scott free.. And that makes people more willing to do such action.
So lets say 80% of all people who broke into peoples homes where killed.. I will bet you people will think twice before doing it.

Or on the harsh end. Those who do break in.. Are coming into your house with guns blazing, and just murder you right out, before you have the chance to act. But that is getting into the brutal and harsh version of where it could all lead.--- How does anyone know that is not what is going to happen. Do you want to take that chance? And let these hoods, kill you, rape your wife, hurt your kids/animals.
No STOP them dead in their tracks.. You do not know what they have in mind when breaking into your home.
And it should be totally legal for a person to use deadly force. But its gets complicated at this point. There needs to be a set code on how to report, and cope with something like this happening.
This way. People are not forced into hiding bodies, or covering up the truth, out of fear of getting trouble for protecting their own.

If you have enough Balls to break into a house. You better be ready to KILL every person in that house, and all for what? Trinkets, pills, money? Not worth it. Better off finding a better crime that yeilds better results.

Like try for congress or a government postion. These are the real criminals. And those are the criminals that get away with it, and make the most money.
If you want to be a criminal.. Do it right. Be a cop yourself, or join the government. Become a lawyer.. You know real bad guy stuff.. Non of this fly by night street crime.

Street crime, and street rats should FEAR breaking into homes. Its the true value of deturing these punks.
edit on 28-11-2012 by zysin5 because: 1.1



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by daskakik

By the way the guy was an expert in security. He was in charge of plans and specifications of government buildings so why wasn't he able to protect his home from burglars?



He worked in security for the State Department apparently, but that doesn't mean he was a expert in security. His actions here decidedly speak otherwise.

Yes he was...

Littl e Falls shooter protected U.S. embassies from terrorists and spies

ST. PAUL, Minn. — Byron Smith, the Little Falls man who authorities say admitted killing two teenagers because they broke into his home, was a highly trained State Department security engineer responsible for protecting U.S. embassies from terrorism and espionage.

Few people, it could be argued, have more training in how to protect a building from threats than security engineers like Smith, who worked for the State Department as recently as 2006 and served in Bangkok, Cairo, Beijing and other foreign cities.

...

Security engineers oversee construction and repair work in U.S. embassies and consulates to prevent spies and terrorists from breaking into State Department buildings or installing secret recording devices, said retired U.S. State Department political officer William Davnie. Unlike security officers, who patrol embassy grounds and offer advice about personal safety to Americans living abroad, security engineers are focused on technical issues, such as building layout, wireless networks, locks and alarms.

"These are people who are very security conscious," said Davnie, who does not know Smith.

...

For example, the specific job duties include, "Plan and conduct technical surveillance countermeasures (TSCM) surveys to detect and nullify technical penetrations of the Department of States facilities" and "Conduct technical security assessment and recommend security upgrades to deter terrorism and technical espionage."



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by zysin5


This may well come as a shock to you, but a novelty yard sign from Spencer's Gifts or some deep south, red neck truck stop doesn't give any man the legal right to be judge, jury and executioner. 'Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again.'

I know it's a really romantic notion, the thought of being able to shoot kids for allegedly attempting to rob your place, and if you simply injure then, give the boys a double tap to the head, no regard for human life.

At the end of the day, this man will get his day in court. He'll get his opportunity to plead his case and explain himself, explain just why he hid those boys corpses for as long as he did. The dead boys, on the other hand, are gone for good. Just doesn't sit right with me.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by Monger
 


You would feel different if you ever had to deal with a group of people breaking into your house, and not knowing what they where going to do to you.
(Or maybe you have.. I am not sure, I do not wish to speak as if I know you personally. Or put words into your mouth.. It just sounded like you where coming down on me for posting a picture, of something that I have up on my front door. Not that picture, but close to that.)
And right, it does not give me the right to kill anyone.. But is fair warning to those who are going to take that chance. Hence if they see that sign, and still decide to come in.. Chances are.. they are armed. and ready to do some harm.)

If you have, and you are okay with letting people walk on you, and stealing from you. Then that is your choice.
I made my choice, and do not carry guns outside my home. I do not like guns. But I was raised around guns, and understand why we have them. And I know how to use and operate all small firearms. (I am a bit to small to use heavy arms.)

I made no effort to get into the details of what happened in this one case. I am speaking clearly from my point of view. I do not live in the best neiborhood.

But I stand by what I say and feel. Break into my house, your life will come to an end. (I won't hide the bodies, I will call the cops after I have dispatched the criminals.)

I can only assume if you are breaking into a house you are desperate, and in my life, desperate people will go to any end. Ever been raped? Ever had a family member killed? Due to a home invasion?
(maybe that is off topic, but I feel in my own exp. DO not give the ones breaking into your home the upper hand.

Heres the deal.
If someone breaks into your house. You have signs clearly posted. If you can, get to a safe room, or your last stand room.. Yell out. "Take what ever you want, but if you come through this door, I will be forced to defend myself."

I do not advocate killing.. And I do not think any person wants to just take another persons life without any thought, or just out right kill them. But in some cases, if you take the time to think it out.. Your dead by that point.
There is NOTHING romantic about being forced to kill another person.. There is no glory.. I hope it never happens to me ever!

But lets face it.. They break into your house, what do you think they are doing there? Come to bring you cake..
Get real dude.
Or maybe, because I am 120lbs very small frame, I stand no chance VS some big guy, or guys.. No I will take my chances with some firepower.. If you want to rape or kill me.. I am going to take a few of them with me.
Its how I was raised, and its how I would raise my kids, if I have any.





At the end of the day, this man will get his day in court. He'll get his opportunity to plead his case and explain himself, explain just why he hid those boys corpses for as long as he did. The dead boys, on the other hand, are gone for good. Just doesn't sit right with me.


I can agree with your feelings on that point. In this case here.. He did hide the bodies, and did not take proper protocal for what happened. However, these boys will not be breaking into any more houses. Maybe that lesson will transfer over to any other would be robber.
Yeah after reading the whole thing.. It does not sit right with me either.. Feels like he did execute these kids.
However it does not bring them back.

If anything.. It will serve as a lesson.. Break into somones house, you may be breaking into a stone cold killers house, who will not think twice about taking you apart, and being the judge, jury,executioner.
Those would be robbers, might think twice.. Maybe I am breaking into a real criminals home.. Best I find some other scam.

But there is a protocal to follow, in this case. He did not follow a couple simple rules. The unwritten rules of when someone breaks into your home.
edit on 28-11-2012 by zysin5 because: 1.3
edit on 28-11-2012 by zysin5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by Monger
 



Now, I don't know if the guy wounded them, and then executed them in cold blood, but that certainly seems like it could be the case, given some of the statements involved.


You sound like I did before hounddoghowlie posted the guys sworn statement a few pages ago. I linked it again 2 pages back. You may really want to read this. It starts off sounding like so many other cases where there could be doubts or questions....

Then you get to his own words. He wounded them both, one at a time, as they came down into his little kill zone in the basement at different times. He describes, for both, watching their feet, legs and lower bodies come into view, then opening fire. Each time. Considering they weren't armed, that alone is a red flag though not outright illegal under Castle Doctrine.

What he did NEXT makes him a stone cold killer. On the male, he let him tumble down the stairs from his .223 wounds and have at least enough time to look up...before executing him where he lay. The Female is worse. MUCH worse. He shot her up across the hips the same way as the male but the gun jammed. HE claims she was laughing...but she'd just taken at least 1 hit from a Mini-14 and tumbled down the stairs. She had to know she was about to die....as her boyfriends body was likely visible once she was down there and bleeding herself.

Then he sets aside the .223 Rifle and draws his .22 pistol which he uses to shoot her repeatedly in the chest. This didn't kill her either according to his OWN statement. So, after dragging her gasping form over with her dead boyfriend, he placed his .22 pistol below her chin and fired into her brain. THAT is called execution....

Really... You have to read it to believe it. I wish I'd dug that out before replying the first time on the thread. The kids may have been burglars, but this guy was a sick killer waiting for someone to murder. They happened to hit the jackpot. The last one they'd ever have..
If he EVER gets out, it'll be too soon. IMO.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


Wow. Just... wow. Show his statement to any jury and they're going to convict. That is some seriously stone cold evil sh**.

And, yet, folks will continue to defend the guy. Really goes to show you the absolutely hideous mindset some people go through their life harbouring.

I enjoy guns. I own guns, I use guns - lest anybody take me for a gungrabber.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


By your reply it is manifestly evident that you have not bothered to read the details of this incident, as you say two guys were the intruders. Obviously you also didn't read the details of how the homeowner -- IN HIS OWN WORDS -- admitted to executing these two people. But that doesn't stop you from defending this sick psychopath, and being all for killing burglars.

As far as facts go, we are dependent on the homeowner's claim that these two people actually broke in.

I by no means am defending burglaries, thefts or home invasion. But to kill unarmed people even if they are breaking into your house, when incapacitating them will do fine is beyond social norms. Why not shoot drunk drivers then, including first-time offenders?

Anybody who defends this homeowner, after having read his own statements on what he did exactly, really should be ashamed of their sickening, blood-thirsty attitude. He brought these people down, in an ambush setting, without giving them any chance to surrender, and then he shot them dead. Then he hid them in his basement and only admitted to the cops that he had dead people he killed in his basement after the police came to his door, spurred by a telephone call by a suspicious neighbor. If you're ok with this behavior, then you are way worse than thieves. And let's be clear: there is a big difference between theft/burglary and domestic invasion. Domestic invasion is coming in and doing violence and/or terror to the occupants. Burglary is just stealing.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by MrInquisitive
 


Guess you did not read my whole post then. I even stated, I am not going to get into the details of this case.
Just express my own feelings about someone breaking into my house.




I by no means am defending burglaries, thefts or home invasion.

Yeah you are. You say your not. But you are playing devils advocate here.



And let's be clear: there is a big difference between theft/burglary and domestic invasion. Domestic invasion is coming in and doing violence and/or terror to the occupants. Burglary is just stealing.

Burglary is just stealing.. Yep that is right. But at the base root. Its more than just stealing. Its taking away a persons emotional state of feeling safe and secure in their own home.

I am Glad you know what people are doing while breaking into a house. I guess you have ESP, or you are a mind reader. Do you have Xray vision too? You can tell right away if people are armed or not armed when breaking into your house??

I was not defending the guy in this case. And you allure to me being sick in the head or what not.
Say what ever helps you sleep at night. If you read my post, the whole thing.. You would not be giving me this kind of attitude. It rubs me the wrong way for me to express something, and have someone like you come in and try to twist my words to suit your high horse agenda.

The guy in the case.. I already said, not getting into the details of that.. Its pretty clear what he did was total outside the unwritten protocals.. I thought at this point in the thread we had that already grasped. 29 pages in.. I was directing my post to those who can grasp and understand the point of view. So please go back and read what I posted.

Yet you push me like I am some blood thirsty, crazy person, who advocates murder..
edit on 28-11-2012 by zysin5 because: (no reason given)

Stop being such a numbskull..
edit on 28-11-2012 by zysin5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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i suppose he had a right to shoot them, but as for stashing their bodies??? he should have called the cops after shooting them.



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