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Outrage after popular students are found murdered in man's basement after 'they robbed his home on

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posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:07 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I've already posted that the police have said that there is more to this story, and that no one will side with this guy once the facts come to light.

But....
Lets look at the professionals are saying, even the “Pro-Gun” crowd...

CBS: Byron Smith Update: Minn. shooting suspect says he "fired more shots than needed" in teens' slayings, complaint says

A prosecutor called Smith's reaction "appalling."

"Mr. Smith intentionally killed two teenagers in his home in a matter that goes well beyond self-defense," Morrison County Attorney Brian Middendorf said during Smith's first court appearance.

Smith's actions "sound like an execution" rather than legitimate self-defense, said David Pecchia, executive director of the Minnesota Chiefs of Police Association. Pecchia said his statements to investigators suggest he eliminated any threat to his safety by wounding the cousins.


Killing of 2 Minn. teens sparks controversy

State Rep. Tony Cornish, a former police officer who sponsored a bill last year that would have expanded circumstances in which people could use deadly force, said he believes Smith would have had a legitimate defense if he would've stopped firing after his first shot.

Rich Collins, a Morrison County commissioner, said that as a National Rifle Association instructor for basic home protection, he is a firm believer that everyone has a right to protect their property — but that they must also make attempts to retreat and call law enforcement.
"These young kids should not have been in this guy's house. That's a given. Nobody can deny that," Collins said. "Did he have the right to shoot them? Yes he did. ... But in the manner in which he used that right, I think, was excessive."

Lets look at what the neighbors said:

Questions tear at those who knew two slain Little Falls teens

Neighbors described Byron Smith as a loner who liked to shoot his guns often, intimidating and worrying nearby residents.

Smith's neighbor Lori Williams said she had complained to authorities about the frequent shooting on Smith's property, worrying that children playing outside could be hurt. But deputies had told her and her husband that nothing could be done because his property was outside city limits, the couple said.

Then what about this:

"He was a security officer for the State Department over the past two decades and was responsible for plans and specifications of State Department buildings worldwide,"

..Yet he didn't seem know what a security system was?
After 8 break-ins he didn't call ADT?
WTF?!?
No, this again, was about vigilante justice.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.




posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by ker2010
 


I corrected my post. I have metal plates forming half of my jaw any way. Can't feel anything.

edit on 28-11-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)


In that case id probably break my hand... lol

Anyways even if you think the guy had every right to do what he did, something smells kinda fishy about this whole story. From the girl coming down the stairs after she hears gun shots, to the laughter, to the waiting to call cops.
A lot of fishy elements.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:09 AM
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The kids got what they had coming to them. Who cares if they were "good people". They don't have seperate laws for people who are preceived "good" and "bad". And like other people have said, if they weren't breaking the law in the first place none of this would have happened.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:12 AM
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This guys story sounds less believable than George Zimmermans. I suppose he could be telling the truth but he handled this thing weirdly imo. Waiting for more details.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by MidnightTide
 


You peeps are real messed up. You should not kill someone because they are burgling you house. Anyone that thinks otherwise is suffering from some kind of mental psychosis. It is a person entering you home, not a rapist or a murderer... Really do you think someone deserves to die for robbing you big flat screen tv....

Poor show.....



And if everyone were like you I could finally quit my day job and just be a full time burglar.
Do you not see the danger in preaching that people should face no consequences for their actions?
Everything in the universe works on the principal of cause and effect.. why should we be any different?

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the death penalty for theft. What I am saying is that the person defending themselves shouldn't even be making the choice out of judgement in the first place.
I wouldn't shoot an intruder because they deserved it.. I'd shoot an intruder to ensure the security of myself, my family, and my property. If that leads to an unfortunate outcome the responsibility lies solely with the person who willingly did wrong.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by buni11687
 

The .223 part doesn't surprise me much for not killing them outright, personally. It's a very small bullet and it's one thing I've heard military guys complain about as much as anything. The AK- fires the BIG .308 and the .223 is quite literally a .22 on steroids. It's got a freight train of a powder charge behind it which actually makes it crappy for home defense shooting unless shooting through obstacles or light body armor is the point, IMO. It's more likely to go through and through and not stop a bona fide attacker. It'll mess them up, no question....but simply hurting isn't supposed to be the point. Killing is. Frangible ammunition solves that but I'm sure Charles Bronson here didn't spend the extra money for such niceties.

@Thread

Why I said laying in wait was based on two things.

First, he was all set down there with a long rifle and a handgun in his own home. it's obvious he'd intended to unload on the next couple punks that broke in. A lot stinks about all this. You don't have the license to just outright murder them. Defensive shoot to save your life or the life of another? Absolutely. Depending on the state, property can be included in that as well as stopping a criminal act short of deadly. Missouri makes shooting permitted in the case of a rape or any sexual assault in progress, whether you're the victim or even remotely involved to what's happening, for instance.

You can't use force beyond the point necessary to end the condition that made force legal in the first place though.. To be technical about it.

Second, his own words are that he SAT and WAITED as the feet came into view, then legs, then when he got just the right view and target picture, he fired. Now if that isn't the textbook, black and white definition of an ambush, what is?? The law doesn't permit setting Lethal Boobytraps (even if a criminal is the only one who could possibly be killed by it) and it absolutely doesn't allow for describing it as a defense shooting when someone coldly places the barrel of their gun under the chin of a gasping human being and as he puts it himself, makes a "good clean finishing shot" to "end her suffering".

Well, isn't he the compassionate one. I'm sure putting her down like an animal was more appropriate than, say, calling 911? Maybe he hadn't actually hit anything vital, despite all that shooting with .22's. She could have just had a collapsed lung or something until he coldly executed her on the floor.

This guy's an animal and again, his very own words and freely given statement convict him. Game, set and match in my mind. The kids may have been burglars but they unknowingly broke into the house of a spree killer looking for a spree to start with.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by Rineocerous
Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating the death penalty for theft. What I am saying is that the person defending themselves shouldn't even be making the choice out of judgement in the first place.
I wouldn't shoot an intruder because they deserved it.. I'd shoot an intruder to ensure the security of myself, my family, and my property. If that leads to an unfortunate outcome the responsibility lies solely with the person who willingly did wrong.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

And no one is denying that you have the right to shoot someone to protect yourself or your household. In this case though, it appears that this was well beyond that and into the realm of being Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

If you shot someone because they broke into your house, you don't move the body around, you don't 'double tap' them, and you don't wait 24 hours to call the police.

God forbid, but if I was ever in that situation, I would be calling the police as quickly as possible in hopes they would be able to revive those kids with only wounds. I certainly wouldn't use a 'kill shot' to 'put them out of their misery'. That all by itself tells you that there is something wrong here and he wanted them to not be able to speak on their own behalf.

Now, I also have to wonder why this guys house was so frequently broken into, and yet he was also not reporting it? What did he have in there that people were coming to steal, yet he didn't want reported to the police? Most people are very unlucky if they get broken into once in their entire lives, yet this guy has it happen 8 times?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:33 AM
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Don't break into people's houses and you won't have to worry about being double tapped, plus he had to stash the bodies so he could clean up whatever he needed to that people weren't meant to see.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


First thing I thought when reading this story is "why did he stash the bodies after?"

If you are shooting in self defence. You call the police immediately after. People who are genuinely trying to protect themselves, aren't happy with it...and also want the matter resolved by authorities.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:35 AM
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Wow!! Very sad. Perhaps this will sway some criminals from robbing houses. But truly tragic.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:42 AM
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Makes it hard to argue with Obama's desire to implement gun control.

Mind you I wouldn't be shocked to learn later that the shooter was an ex mental patient, and or on various mind altering drugs.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:52 AM
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reply to post by MrInquisitive
 


yes I am a raging barbarian.

Look Mr. morality. You don't risk the lives of your family for noble ideals. You can pretend all you want, but that would just be irresponsible.

Is that all you people have....a false sense of superior morality?

Do you like sue Mt. lions for eating other animals and scream at dogs for harassing you as you pass by their front yard?

It is human nature to protect yourself like it is animal nature to protect yourself. We are animals Mr. "I would lay down" and trust the intentions of a F-ing criminal in your house.

You are such a hypocrite and liar. All of you. That or completely naive and sheltered. I grew up in NY and worked all my life in NYC. I know better. People want to hurt you in most cases. The "good" person doesn't venture out at night and breaks into your home.

I didn't want to talk about it, but this subject hits really close to home for me. I think some people need a wakeup call, so I will share what I know of home invasions.

My house was the subject of a home invasion on 2 occasions. They followed my dad home from his business in Washington heights. A Dominican gang. They knew the next day he made deposits so he had allot of cash on him.

They followed him into the door, right behind him as my grandmother opened. They threw her onto the couch and put a gun to her head. Two went into the house and rounded up one of my sisters, and my mom. They were going to rape them. My other sister managed to jump out a window and run to our neighbors house.

My dad freaked out and fought them. He grabbed the gunman nearest to him, and somehow when he cocked the gun it fell apart and the clip fell out. My dad literally picked him up and threw him out the front door. The others left when they realized my sister left and my dad was berserking downstairs beating the crap out of one of them.

The other time, it was a similar deal. They followed my dad home, but my dad knew this time something was up so he called ahead and asked my mom to get ready to open the door and close it right away behind him . It didn't work out. They came in but my cousin who was staying with us ran out when she heard their voices and what they were saying to my mom and her friend. She ran out of the house in her underwear to the same neighbor. (they ended up thinking we dealt drugs and these were drug related hits.... lol kind of funny in retrospect). She ran out the basement door, they heard her and tried to follow, but that door had a little trick to it so they couldn't open it after her. They freaked out and just left that time. My whole family was kneeling on the living room floor waiting to get raped and beaten.

I lucked out both times. I was 5 and 6 respectively and stayed with my other grandmother at the time on weekends. I didn't have to see it. We just lived in fear for the next few years. Always thought we were being followed, installed alarms, bought guns, lived in panic mode for a while. I wish we would have just killed them the first time. The Cops told us they ended up dying violent deaths anyways in jail and on the block. GOOD RIDDANCE.

Screw your high ideals and morals. When it is your loved ones being threatened, you play nice with the sadistic home invaders, the rest of us will fight back. You make me sick. No wonder the world is the way it is. Everyone is a coward and a hypocrite. Maybe you would lay down and die, but that is not normal so don't expect everyone else to. It is also retarded.




edit on 28-11-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 01:57 AM
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Originally posted by boncho
First thing I thought when reading this story is "why did he stash the bodies after?"

As I mentioned above. I think he was clearing his “ambush zone” so the next victim would walk into his trap. I also think its somewhat suspect that he had tarps and everything there set up to handle this.

I'm a home owner, and my house has been in the process of being rebuilt for two years now. I have a few tarps around my house, but the chances of me having one sitting at arms reach, that I could get in the time between two people walking into my house and down my hallway, are so slim as to make this nothing short of preplanned. He had to have had this preset as a 'kill zone' where he could get them as they came down the stairs, before they could see him.


Originally posted by boncho
If you are shooting in self defence. You call the police immediately after. People who are genuinely trying to protect themselves, aren't happy with it...and also want the matter resolved by authorities.

Most sane people don't want a dead body in their house to begin with (even a loved one who has died of natural causes), let alone to leave one there overnight. There's a huge creep factor with just the fact that he did this alone, that's almost serial killer mentality IMHO.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Actually defcon5 is appears MidnightTide is, in fact, saying just that. Obviously the circumstances here are atypical and particularily grimm but I resent the notion that there is something "psychotic" about being effective at and employing personal defense actions.

I fully agree that this guy was in for the kill. I have no doubt the countless previous burglaries had, at the very least, caused him to play out this type of situation in his head. He quite likely ambushed them with the intent to get revenge and none of that is very pretty.

That wouldn't be me... but then again I also wouldn't advocate charging him. Setting aside my moral objections to his actions, I'd prefer that type of confined vigilantism be legal. If the basic idea here turns out to be true I see no indication that this man is a threat to anyone other than people who knowingly put their life in jeopardy to victimize someone. Cause and effect.
If that man were a volcano, and those kids jumped in, there would be no outcry to punish the volcano. It is the fact that he is a man and therefor we project all sorts of moral obligation. Yet I don't mean to come off as absolving humans of their moral obligations.. it's a fine line. Again.. I'm morally opposed to his actions, but that kind of self important thinking is what has diminished the natural role of consequences in today's society.
Bigger picture, so to speak.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 02:40 AM
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reply to post by acmpnsfal
 


Give it a break.
A 64 year old has people enter his house and he's what? Not supposed to defend what he has worked for? What if it was the alternative outcome?

What if they murdered him. That's a lot more common. And he has reason to fear his life if young people break and enter into HIS home. Yes the repeatedly shooting and stashing of the bodies was over the top. But it's a harsh world and people need to think before they commit stupid crimes.

They were ''popular''. Do you really think they had a reason to rob him other than to get more things. From modern culture it is often a trend that the less wealthy kids are not the popular ones. I think while the deaths are sad, the whole thing could have been prevented by the kids not breaking in!

You say they didn't deserve to die - He didn't deserve to have his house broken into!



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by PatrickGarrow17
 


I agree with all you've said in this thread.

There was no need to exterminate these teens ,
its so savage and primitive in this day and age.
He could have called police first to ask for assistance, say he has intruders.

Maybe all they did was intrude and were never robbing him.
They run into Norman Bates who lived with his mother.

It's very suspicious he stashed the bodies and didn't report it to police. . I can understand he could have panicked, but hiding usually implies guilt. Shooting them more than once was excessive.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 03:05 AM
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Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
Everyone is a coward and a hypocrite. Maybe you would lay down and die, but that is not normal so don't expect everyone else to. It is also retarded.




edit on 28-11-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-11-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



Look who is calling who a coward..
A gun owner that is rich. Maybe if you weren't so afraid of the freakin world you could manage to grow a pair. Speaking from experience my self...I had some trouble with criminals and took care of it. No one died maybe hurt egos and a few bruises here and there...but that was it.

If someone had pulled a gun on me..then so be it....I most likely would die but I would do so knowing that i myself did not die like a coward ..needing a weapon for my well being.

You Americans love to say how if you had no guns that criminals would run your country...guess what they do...otherwise you all would not feel the need to carry around a weapon for protection.

Sounds like you and your father were completely useless without a weapon...too bad for your family.

This idiot who shot these kids and others who have advocated it should all be rounded up and shot themselves.
If you think that death is the only way to deal with people....then you need your head examined..shoot them if you must but there is nothing wrong with just injuring them. A lot of gun owners are freaking blood thirsty and it is really sad that these fools have access to weapons.

The government should really look into mental evaluations before handing out guns to any old idiot.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 03:18 AM
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reply to post by kerazeesicko
 


I am not even going to read your whole crap post. I got as far s the first sentences.

My family was a western European immigrant family that lived in the Bronx in a small crap apartment for many years and worked several jobs to save enough to build something for ourselves. So your "rich" comment is as much crap as you. We are working class, middle class people. I am not ashamed of what our work built.

Second, you are acting like a retard, issuing insults to people for doing what is only natural, defending themselves.

And for your information I don't own a gun. I trained and learned how to cause bodily harm with my hands. If I lived in NY again, I might consider it since other people have them, and mostly people out to hurt you don't come alone.

You are the type of person that needs to grow up and get his head out of his ass. I wish you the best. May your high ideals pan out the way they never do for the rest of the world. When you have to compromise remember that crap you just said to me.

P.S.
Europeans are cowards in that they need to call the cops for every little thing, you pansy ass cowards. DIY. You can't even argue in public without someone calling the cops in tears. That is why eastern Europe is eating you all up alive.


edit on 28-11-2012 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 03:25 AM
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I am not here to defend these kids but they definitely did not deserve to die. This individual who shot them is a murderer and in my humble opinion should have been given first degree murder. No person in their right mind would have shoot two unarmed people unless they (him) was in immediate danger .

These two teens were unarmed yet this scumbag decided to end two young lives because he was a heartless coward. Now I understand why they want to take away your guns. After reading this article I am now at the point where I totally support gun control similar to the one we have here in Canada. That's why we have only FEW and far in between deaths in comparison.


Originally posted by MidnightTide



They didn't deserve to die.

Friends and family have expressed their outrage over the deaths of two popular students shot by a homeowner while they robbed his home - as he revealed he fired 'more shots than he needed to'.

The bodies of cousins Haile Kifer, 18, and Nicholas Brady Schaeffel, 17, were found in Byron Smith's basement in Little Falls, Minnesota on Friday - the day after they were shot dead on Thanksgiving.

When police arrived at his home after reports of suspicious activity, Smith, 64, confessed to shooting the teenagers repeatedly and stashing their bodies after they broke into his home, authorities said.

On Monday, he was charged with second-degree murder and police revealed he told them he fired more shots than necessary after his gun jammed and Kifer laughed at him.



Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk... a
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Role model? Star students? How about repeat break and enter / robbery suspects. If they weren't breaking and entering NOTHING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. I am sure the usual anti-gun membership on ATS will say he shouldn't have defended his home and property, but like I said, if they weren't breaking the law they would still be alive today. Parents are in part to blame, obviously they didn't teach their children the proper respect of others property and rights. Tired of the "good kids" excuse, your actions have consequences, just as these two found out.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 03:31 AM
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What a dumb comment to make. I am sure if these were your kids you wouldn't be making such comments. As if you have NEVER committed a crime in your life. What crime have they committed I ask you to deserve the death penalty. You young unarmed teenagers.


Originally posted by TFCJay
Great post OP.

These young adults would still be alive had they not been criminals.

S+F




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