Disclosure of the moon landing hoax.

reply to post by turbonium1


An increase doesn't mean that it's going to be fatal to the astronauts. It means that it increases their chances of long term health problems, which several astronauts have had as they got older.

Originally posted by choos

no supporting evidence?? how about 12 men who have walked on the moon?? apollo 8-17 missions which left LEO??

www.hq.nasa.gov...
its not only journals, but the bio-medical reports are there as well
www.astr.ua.edu...
observatories tracking the apollo missions
www.honeysucklecreek.net...
The Bochum Radio Observatory, Germany

even your own reports do not say that it is impossible for a 12 day mission, so even those can be used as evidence..

so lets see your evidence that says the astronauts should get severely sick/die from radiation in an aluminium shell beyond LEO for missions less than 12 days.. lets see your evidence which shows the levels of radiation in an aluminium shell are at a level which will make a human sick in about 6-12 days..

The Apollo astronauts? Good one!! Apollo is supported by the crew....of Apollo!!!!

Apollo is the entity 'on trial' here. I hope that's clear to you now?

So here's a few facts.

- The Apollo craft were thin aluminum shells, basically.

- We now know aluminum increases radiation beyond LEO.

- We know how hazardous radiation is beyond LEO.

- We know adequate shielding is absolutely essential, a must.

- We are still trying to develop adequate shields, thus allowing for manned missions beyond LEO.


The Apollo story can't stand up to those facts. Period.

So you had to invent a 'fact'. An 'exception'. Surely, aluminum is only inadequate for longer missions!! Then you invent another 'fact', that only long-term missions are being planned in the future!!

Both 'facts' are untrue, but so what?!?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by turbonium1

 

An increase doesn't mean that it's going to be fatal to the astronauts. It means that it increases their chances of long term health problems, which several astronauts have had as they got older.

What if you had no shield at all? Would you be safe, or not?

reply to post by turbonium1

We now know aluminum increases radiation beyond LEO.

It's a bit more complex than that but you should know that aluminum is quite effective for shielding against the majority of radiation. The problem is with the high energy stuff like galactic cosmic rays. But the flux levels of those high energy particles is low enough so it doesn't become problematic until long term exposure becomes a factor.

You ignore exposure times and you ignore the fact that the skin of the spacecraft was not the only protection provided.

Originally posted by turbonium1

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by turbonium1

 

An increase doesn't mean that it's going to be fatal to the astronauts. It means that it increases their chances of long term health problems, which several astronauts have had as they got older.

What if you had no shield at all? Would you be safe, or not?

Cruising around without a spaceship radiation is the last thing you would have to worry about. But if you mean assuming we could survive would the radiation kill us well that depends on exposure time. If you give them a space suit yeah sure if not well could be minutes or days but direct answer no. However if they were on mars would be ok the radiation level there is similar to low earth orbit. You'll have health problems later in life with no protection but you would live along time.

Originally posted by turbonium1

The Apollo astronauts? Good one!! Apollo is supported by the crew....of Apollo!!!!

Apollo is the entity 'on trial' here. I hope that's clear to you now?

so you will just ignore these ones?

www.astr.ua.edu...
www.honeysucklecreek.net...

the astronauts went to the moon and these obeservatories followed them.

p.s. should we also dismiss all the data that NASA has collected beyond LEO also?

So here's a few facts.

- The Apollo craft were thin aluminum shells, basically.

- We now know aluminum increases radiation beyond LEO.

- We know how hazardous radiation is beyond LEO.

- We know adequate shielding is absolutely essential, a must.

- We are still trying to develop adequate shields, thus allowing for manned missions beyond LEO.


The Apollo story can't stand up to those facts. Period.

So you had to invent a 'fact'. An 'exception'. Surely, aluminum is only inadequate for longer missions!! Then you invent another 'fact', that only long-term missions are being planned in the future!!

Both 'facts' are untrue, but so what?!?

in all those facts show me where it says man cannot survive a 12 day mission beyond LEO.

if you cannot provide this why should anyone believe your speculation?

im still waiting for your proof that 12 days beyond LEO in an aluminium shell cannot be done or should make the occupants suffer from acute radiation sickness, not more of your speculation.

reply to post by turbonium1


It's too bad you don't put this much effort into actually learning about radiation instead of just parroting the things that fit your beliefs.

Radiation is space, is in several ways, similar to radiation on earth. There are a lot of alpha and beta particles, with some gamma particles mixed in. Alpha and beta particles are fairly easy to shield against. An alpha particle in space, while moving much faster than on earth, is still going to be stopped by most shielding. The same with a beta particle.

What's going to happen is that you're going to see secondary radiation effects from the shielding due to "braking radiation", which is why you want thinner shields. Yes, this is going to increase radiation levels on the Apollo ship, but an alpha particle isn't suddenly going to become some super terrible go through anything and kill you particle. You will see higher penetration rates from both alpha and beta particles, but the majority of them won't enter the body very far, which means they won't kill you if you're exposed to them for a short period of time.

Gamma radiation is the real problem, as even on earth it tends to go through most objects. That will go through the astronauts without stopping, but again, as long as the exposure is limited in time, and they don't have any very large exposures (CMEs etc), then they're going to be able to survive it. In the long term however, exposure to both the alpha and beta particles, as well as the gamma particles can cause long term health problems later in life. It's the same as when you work with radiation on earth. Higher levels aren't going to kill you right away necessarily, if you have a short exposure, but later in life you will have to have checkups for certain things regularly due to the exposure.

Not safe, obviously.

You think it's safe to go for a few days, or not?

It's not, right?

I'll wait for a reply before going on...

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by turbonium1

 

It's too bad you don't put this much effort into actually learning about radiation instead of just parroting the things that fit your beliefs.

Radiation is space, is in several ways, similar to radiation on earth. There are a lot of alpha and beta particles, with some gamma particles mixed in. Alpha and beta particles are fairly easy to shield against. An alpha particle in space, while moving much faster than on earth, is still going to be stopped by most shielding. The same with a beta particle.

What's going to happen is that you're going to see secondary radiation effects from the shielding due to "braking radiation", which is why you want thinner shields. Yes, this is going to increase radiation levels on the Apollo ship, but an alpha particle isn't suddenly going to become some super terrible go through anything and kill you particle. You will see higher penetration rates from both alpha and beta particles, but the majority of them won't enter the body very far, which means they won't kill you if you're exposed to them for a short period of time.

Gamma radiation is the real problem, as even on earth it tends to go through most objects. That will go through the astronauts without stopping, but again, as long as the exposure is limited in time, and they don't have any very large exposures (CMEs etc), then they're going to be able to survive it. In the long term however, exposure to both the alpha and beta particles, as well as the gamma particles can cause long term health problems later in life. It's the same as when you work with radiation on earth. Higher levels aren't going to kill you right away necessarily, if you have a short exposure, but later in life you will have to have checkups for certain things regularly due to the exposure.

Your claims are not supported, so how about it? I'll reply afterwards///

reply to post by turbonium1

Your claims are not supported,

Yours are? Please provide support for your claim that the radiation encountered by the Apollo astronauts would exceed maximum dosage allowances. Flux levels of expected radiation to be encountered and the effects of shielding by the skin of the spacecraft and the equipment lining the interior would be helpful.

reply to post by turbonium1


You're claims that aluminum shielding makes Apollo impossible are not supported. Increased radiation does not mean impossible, and none of your sources have said it does make it impossible.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Cruising around without a spaceship radiation is the last thing you would have to worry about. But if you mean assuming we could survive would the radiation kill us well that depends on exposure time. If you give them a space suit yeah sure if not well could be minutes or days but direct answer no. However if they were on mars would be ok the radiation level there is similar to low earth orbit. You'll have health problems later in life with no protection but you would live along time.

The environment is not healthy for humans, to say the least. With no protection, you'd soon be sick or die.

You'd be lucky to make it through a few days and live to a ripe old age, right?,

Bad indeed.

But nothing compared to increasing the radiation even more.

That would be where your Apollo story comes in.

,

.

reply to post by turbonium1


That's where your understanding of radiation fails. The aluminum hull does act as a shield against a good bit of the radiation, there was just more secondary radiation inside the craft than expected. Just because aluminum doesn't make a good shield doesn't mean it's completely incapable of stopping all radiation.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by turbonium1

 

You're claims that aluminum shielding makes Apollo impossible are not supported. Increased radiation does not mean impossible, and none of your sources have said it does make it impossible.

It says aluminum is inadequate for shielding beyond LEO.

It says aluminum increases the radiation hazard beyond LEO.


Wow! If that's not a stellar endorsement for Apollo's merit, I don't know what is!!

Not the best, is it?

Originally posted by Phage
Please provide support for your claim that the radiation encountered by the Apollo astronauts would exceed maximum dosage allowances. Flux levels of expected radiation to be encountered and the effects of shielding by the skin of the spacecraft and the equipment lining the interior would be helpful.

edit on 6/8/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

You made the initial claims, so you need to support them. To think they need to be disproved by others when you've not proven a thing is simply absurd. It's your burden to support what you claim, period/

reply to post by turbonium1


Not the best does NOT mean incapable of stopping radiation at all. It means that it doesn't so as much as they thought, but it still stops radiation. As for the increase, that's from the "braking radiation" as the particles go through the aluminum. So it does cause an increase, but not one of your sources says that makes Apollo impossible our proves it never happened.

If aluminum was completely porous to radiation why are so many probes in deep space, including Voyager, still operating? They all use aluminum shells for shielding, and electronics are very sensitive to radiation, which is why they have to occasionally shut down in the Van Allen belts. Voyager has been going almost forty years now.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by turbonium1

 

That's where your understanding of radiation fails. The aluminum hull does act as a shield against a good bit of the radiation, there was just more secondary radiation inside the craft than expected. Just because aluminum doesn't make a good shield doesn't mean it's completely incapable of stopping all radiation.

The problem is aluminum increases the radiation which exists beyond LEO. And that's why it is such a lousy material for a manned moon mission. Whether it's a short stay or long stay, it simply won't work.

reply to post by turbonium1

You made the initial claims, so you need to support them. To think they need to be disproved by others when you've not proven a thing is simply absurd. It's your burden to support what you claim, period/

I actually haven't claimed anything. No. You made the initial claim.

You claimed that the Apollo astronauts would have been exposed to excessive amounts of radiation and therefore the missions were impossible. You have provided no evidence of that. You have provided no data on radiation levels. You have provided no data on the shielding capabilities of the skin of the spacecraft. You have not accounted for additional shielding effects provided by the equipment lining the interior of the spacecraft. You have provided no calculations of dosages to support your claim.

reply to post by turbonium1


No, it doesn't. It increased the amount on the ship. It doesn't do anything with the amount I'm space. You're claiming it's not only letting every bit of radiation through, it's actually increasing it, which isn't anywhere near the truth. The aluminum stops alot of the radiation, but when the particles enter the aluminum some of them hit the particles I'm the aluminum. This stops the incoming particle, but shoots the particle that was hit off into others. These particles are now radioactive, and enter the ship, increasing the radiation levels. It's known as "braking radiation". THAT is the increase in question, NOT an increase in overall radiation.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by turbonium1

 

Not the best does NOT mean incapable of stopping radiation at all. It means that it doesn't so as much as they thought, but it still stops radiation. As for the increase, that's from the "braking radiation" as the particles go through the aluminum. So it does cause an increase, but not one of your sources says that makes Apollo impossible our proves it never happened.

If aluminum was completely porous to radiation why are so many probes in deep space, including Voyager, still operating? They all use aluminum shells for shielding, and electronics are very sensitive to radiation, which is why they have to occasionally shut down in the Van Allen belts. Voyager has been going almost forty years now.

edit on 6/8/2013 by Zaphod58 because: (no reason given)

A human is nothing like a relay switch, that's why it's a major problem.

You could put a toaster into Three Mile Island and it would still make toast. But if a human went in he would die..