Challenge match: Sublimecraft vs Druid42: The Voynich Manuscript - Real or Hoax

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posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 10:44 PM
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Thank-you to ATS, the forum Moderators and Druid42 for allowing me the opportunity to Debate this very mysterious piece of history.
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I will demonstrate to you, the reader, that the Voynich manuscript is indeed an authentic codex that had an actual purpose.

I shall commence this debate by focusing on the authenticity of the manuscript - narrowing down its age thus removing ambiguity.


was its purpose to record arcane knowledge, or is it just a clever cipher with fictional material?

The Voynich manuscript is truly a mystery. Many attempts to decipher its contents have been made over the years – to no avail. The fact that no one has yet cracked its code, identified the meanings behind the many illustrations contained therein or determined the reason for its existence is the key to this debate.

First, lets get some facts:
Officially registered as MS 408 in the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library of Yale University, the Voynich manuscript is a parchment codex of 234 pages, written in an unknown script.

It was acquired in 1912 by Wilfrid M. Voynich – a successful dealer in old books.

Attached to the manuscript was a letter in Latin dated 1666 from Johannes Marcus Marci of Kronland, once rector of the Charles University of Prague, to the learned Jesuit Athanasius Kircher in Rome, offering the manuscript for translation and mentioning that it had once been bought by Emperor Rudolf II of Bohemia (1552-1612) for 600 ducats . The letter further mentioned that it was believed that the author of the MS was Roger Bacon (1214 to 1294).

It appears to show herbal, astronomical, biological/balneological & pharmaceutical information as well as what is called the “recipes” section.

It appears to show some characters that resemble those from the Roman alphabet (a, o, c, n, m), some are like numbers (2, 4, 8, 9) and others are similar to symbols used as Latin abbreviations or in alchemy in the Middle Ages. In addition there are a few instances of add-ons, such as the names of the months in the astrological section and some incomprehensible lines on the last folio.

Studies have identified the following list as the possible origin of the MS:

1. Roger Bacon, as suggested by Voynich and Newbold. No longer believed.
2. A Cathar cult of Isis followers, as part of a proposed solution by Levitov. His thesis is unbelievable both historically and linguistically.
3. A copy of letters between Ukrainian rebels in a proto-slavic language, as suggested by John Stojko. This proposal has not convinced anyone.
4. Anthony Askham, the lesser known brother of Roger, as suggested by L.C. Strong. The name of Askham derives from an incredible proposed decryption of the MS and cannot therefore be believed.
5. A hoax by John Dee and/or Edward Kelly as suggested by many and most strongly supported by Brumbaugh and currently Rugg. This is essentially out of the question as it concerns Dee. As for Kelly, there is also nothing to support this.
6. An early form of a synthetic language, as suggested by Friedman and Tiltman. This cannot be disproved, but the time frame is a problem.
7. An early attempt to convert a syllabic, tonal language (such as Chinese) to an alphabetic script. This theory is based on certain peculiar text statistics and is by no means disproved, but there is difficulty with the fact that the entire MS has a Western European look. A specific connection (e.g. encoding) with any specific oriental language has also not yet been proposed.
8. A modern fake by Wilfrid Voynich. Disproved by the recent discovery of earlier references to the Voynich MS.
9. The Dürer expert E.Panofsky studied the MS in the 1930's and concluded that the MS dates from about 1470 or at the latest the early years of the 16th Century. He places the origin of the MS in Germany.
10. In the 1990's, the expert in Medieval herbals S.Toresella suggests around 1460 as the time of origin of the MS, and is convinced that it originates from Italy, comparing the script to the Italian humanist script.


Regarding point #5, Dr. Gordon Rugg, a professor of knowledge modelling at Keele University, Staffordshire U.K. has attempted to demonstrate how the MS could be a hoax.
His experiment shows the speed at which the codex could have been written – it fails to explain why it was written. He believes that the book was created to give the impression that it contained something mysterious. Its seems a rather pointless, time consuming and very expensive exercise to undertake.


Why take the time to write such a codex if not for the purpose of imparting knowledge? There is no documented evidence that the MS was used to gain monetary wealth or to discredit any institution existing at the time – the usual reasons when a hoax is discovered to have occurred. Mr Voynich died which a large debt.

Is the fact that modern scholars have not yet discovered its code reasons to believe it is a clever cipher containing fictional material?

Who is to say that the code was not known or that its “Rosetta stone” to decipherment was not discovered soon after the MS was produced. Many languages have disappeared over the centuries. Very little is known about these specifics prior to Voynich acquiring the codex.

Was the MS a text meant for a specific institution that existed at the same time that used it to impart knowledge – that knowledge being translated and used down through the ages to this very day and we simply do not recognise it from the original codex?

The fact that the book contains a vast number of drawings regarding Herbs and the Zodiac is a clue to its authenticity. In the middle ages, if one was to be cured of ailments using herbal remedies then the Zodiac (star sign) of the recipient was used. The fact that the MS is coded may have been to avoid the wrath of the church - whom frowned upon such practices - irrespective of their success in healing.

Another clue is the optical illusions attributed to some of the drawings - both herbal and astronomical. Similar to drawing a picture at the corner of each page then flicking through to show a moving object, when certain images within the manuscript are spun around they show a moving image around the astronomical diagrams and plants that seem to grow.

Joseph Barabe, an expert in Microscopy has done extensive analysis on the MS. His findings show that the materials and pigments are completely appropriate to the 15th and 16th century - proof of the authenticity of the manuscript.

Some of the pages are full page fold-outs, the cost of this parchment would have been massive, even for a wealthy individual. So it being coded and expensive to produce means that the MS was of significant import to the author - enough so to ensure its code could not be broken - except by those with the right knowledge.

Brad Hodges from the University of Arizona has done extensive and very accurate radio-carbon testing of the manuscript using samples of the parchment from 4 different areas within the script. He has been determined that it was written 1404-1438 using the latest scientific analysis - ruling out Bacon, John Dee and Roger Kelly as possible authors.

This video below backs up all of these claims, verifying its authenticity, and I implore the readers to view this to get the latest analysis of this amazing manuscript.
edit on 25-11-2012 by Sublimecraft because: spelling / grammar




posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 07:42 PM
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I would like to open my position by thanking Sublimecraft for agreeing to participate in such a controversial debate, and for a very thorough and well researched opening of his own.

I have spent the time to cross-check his facts, and they are accurate, including the updated carbon dating placing it's origin between 1404 and 1438, with a 95% accuracy rate. The vellum on which the MS is written is from that time period.

For the sake of convenience, here is a Voynich Voyager, a handy online tool to peruse the folios within the MS. I'm including it within my opening for future reference, as I will be referring back to certain images.

What we have as the topic of this debate is an enigmatic MS that defies translation. Since 1912, the brightest minds across the entire globe (literally) have worked on a translation, written books about, and continue to discuss it. In short, it's a topic that will be pursued until a resolution is in place.

For the purpose of this debate, I'll state that I don't think that the MS is a "real" document. It's not about real people, real places, or real plants. It's a work of fiction.

As much as people would like to think it contains hidden or arcane real life knowledge, I'll posit that it is a cleverly crafted fictional work embedded within a cipher text, the key to which hasn't been discovered yet. I emphasize yet, because when the translation key is finally figured out, it will reveal the MS in it's entirety, not just sections, and not arbitrarily.

Decidedly, it does contain styles from Medieval European times, so therein we can search for the author, who may remain anonymous, but we can at least get a grip on why such a complex MS was created.

What is the reason for the MS? Surely, it's not to impart knowledge, as it would be written in a plain language. It's meant to tease, to ponder, and utilize critical thinking skills, and remains a puzzle in the least. On the outside, it could be a treatise on the author's knowledge of a variety of subjects, but surely nothing so life-changing as to require such impenetrable encryption. However, as a work of fiction, it can be all of those.

At the beginning of the 15th century, when the MS was created, we had several important events beginning: The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery, and the Invention of the Printing Press. These were major events, changes in the ways people viewed the world, and the MS was born from both the innovation and the curiosity rampant at the time. It wasn't born as a tribute to the accumulation of the author's knowledge of the world, but more from the desire of expression.

The original author was a genius, and therein perhaps lies another clue to their identity. Perhaps the identity of the author is hidden behind the single hand of an individual, coached by a group of his peers, working together in collaboration for a goal we'll perhaps discover before the conclusion of this debate. For now, I'll state that "hard science" wasn't invented yet, but the curiosity that drives mankind forward into progress was already in full bloom.

The Voynich Manuscript is a fictional documentation of the creative imagination of a group of individuals living during a time that while creeping out of the Dark Ages, they were re-discovering an excitement for the world around them.

Most of the flora depicted in the MS is "fake", meaning there is no readily identifiable counterpart in modern taxonomy. Other flora seems to be "spliced" together. Had there been readily identifiable flora, the MS may have been decoded already, but that is of course, speculation. Without accompanying text, the pictures remain a mystery, however, it does lead toward a "fictional" premise to the whole manuscript.

This was a time just before the printing press. Words were handwritten, and for those few who were literate, savored beyond measure, read and re-read. Before the mass production of written material, a work of fiction was something to use to escape the mundane, the trivials of life, and shared with friends. Since there were no libraries at the time, a lengthy manuscript such as this would have been used to entertain an elite circle of friends, unable to be mass produced, but fortunate enough to have survived until modern times.

My opponent is correct about the page rotations. Certain folios do reveal hidden images, of entertainment value when "played" properly, which I'd like to delve into further during my next response.

For now, I yield the floor to my opponent.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 09:36 PM
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When one peruses the text as is readily available online, we start to see a pattern with the MS.

Four things stand out.

1. Plants.
2. Astronomy.
3. Females.
4. Recipes.

By asking ourselves a few questions, we may find the answer:

What, back in the 15th century (as well as before and after) was steeped in mystery and contained these 4 elements?

What would possess an individual to produce such a complex manuscript and have it coded with multiple references to these elements?

Why would kings and the academic branch of the the church be interested in this manuscript?


Alchemy is an influential philosophical tradition whose early practitioners' claims to profound powers were known from antiquity. The defining objectives of alchemy are varied; these include the creation of the fabled philosopher's stone possessing powers including the capability of turning base metals into the noble metals gold or silver, as well as an elixir of life conferring youth and longevity. Western alchemy is recognized as a protoscience that contributed to the development of modern chemistry and medicine. Alchemists developed a framework of theory, terminology, experimental process and basic laboratory techniques that are still recognizable today. But alchemy differs from modern science in the inclusion of Hermetic principles and practices related to mythology, religion, and spirituality.
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The Elixir of Life answers these questions and appears to contain all 4 of the aforementioned elements.


The Elixir of life, also known as elixir of immortality and sometimes equated with the philosopher's stone, is a legendary/mythical potion, or drink, that grants the drinker eternal life and/or eternal youth. Many practitioners of alchemy pursued it. The elixir of life was also said to be able to create life. It is related to the myths of Thoth, and Hermes Trismegistus, all of whom in various tales are said to have drunk "the white drops" (liquid gold) and thus achieved immortality. It is mentioned in one of the Nag Hammadi texts
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This picture below is a medallion on an embroidered Chinese Imperial robe with the White Hare of the Moon, at the foot of a cassia tree, making elixir of immortality. The styling of the embroidery is very similar to that of the sketches in the MS - surely this is no coincidence? link



Full Image


Now, look closely at what I have circled - the Cassia Tree. Now look at this image below from the MS which is the Ram (Aries). The Ram is shown eating from a tree surrounded by 15 pregnant females - hardly coincidence if we think in terms of Alchemy?


The recipes section of the MS is the key to my conclusions. When combining all works in plant properties, astronomical observations and female biology, it would only lead one to draw up the appropriate formulas to put into practice what has been studied - indeed every scientist recognises this protocol.

I propose that the Voynich manuscript is an attempt at recording the Elixir of Life.

My very instincts tell me this is correct. This is why the code appears unbreakable, because the information it contains would change the fabric of society.

Secret societies, The Renaissance, The Age of Discovery. Men of high academic standing studying the esoteric for meaning, Kings, Emperors, knights, Princesses, Wizards and Witches. Do you see where I am going here?

These individuals held onto / had access to information that was not available to the masses. When one looks at certain stories from recorded history, from The Christ through to King Arthur and Merlin we notice elements of the Voynich manuscript appearing all over the place - its almost unavoidable.

To summarise:
Botany, herbs, astronomy and zodiac symbology, Strange sketches showing pregnant females, a recipes section - All coded.

Kings and Church, modern day academia - all wanting to access this information - why?

Surely not because it is a work of fiction?


Words were handwritten, and for those few who were literate, savored beyond measure, read and re-read. Before the mass production of written material, a work of fiction was something to use to escape the mundane, the trivials of life, and shared with friends. Since there were no libraries at the time, a lengthy manuscript such as this would have been used to entertain an elite circle of friends, unable to be mass produced, but fortunate enough to have survived until modern times.


A lengthy manuscript such as this would have been used to teach and enlighten an elite circle of chosen recipients, never to be mass produced and designed to survive so as to continue the knowledge.
edit on 26-11-2012 by Sublimecraft because: spelling / grammar



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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My opponent's point number 2: Astronomy.

As an tome of knowledge, as my opponent suggests, there is a large problem to work through. The mindset during the 1400's was dictated by the edicts of the Church, namely the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pope. At that point in time, due to interpretations of scripture, the only allowable view of the heavens was a geocentric model, in which the Earth was at the center of the solar system. The MS clearly shows a heliocentric slant, which wasn't accepted until later in the 17th century. Both my opponent and I can agree upon a 15th century date, so why do these images show a heliocentric model?

Quire 9, Folio 67v


Quire 9, Folio 68v


Quire 10, Folio 70r2


Furthermore, whereas my opponent uses the word Astronomy, I'll posit the MS is more Astrology based, rather than depicting any serious study of the heavens. Again, my theory is the MS is more of an entertainment media, than an actual fact filled text.

This Folio appears to have an Astrological basis, as decoded by Thomas O'neill:
Quire 9, Folio 67r




If authorized or otherwise related to the church, the basis of the Astrology drawings should look more like this image:
The Ptolemaic system of astrology, created around 1660. (geocentric)


Instead of being based in the now accepted heliocentric version:
A well-known illustration of the Copernican Model, with the celestial spheres moving around the Sun. (heliocentric)


My opponent's point number 3: Females.

I'll further refute my opponent's theory about any relation to the King and Church.


Kings and Church, modern day academia - all wanting to access this information - why?


The MS is filled with pictures of nude women bathing in all sorts of apparatus. Given the time period, such activity was frowned upon by the church.

Here's an interesting article:

The development and eventual dominance of Christianity in late antiquity profoundly changed the needs of patrons and the output of artists. Unlike paganism, Christianity required no images of naked divinities, and new attitudes cast doubt and opprobrium on nude athletics, public bathing, and the very value of the human body. The early Christian emphasis on chastity and celibacy further discounted depictions of nakedness. In this climate, there was little motive to study the nude, and unclothed figures are thus rare in medieval art.


However, the MS was born into a time when art was being rediscovered.


The rediscovery of Greco-Roman culture in the Renaissance restored the nude to the heart of creative endeavor. Nude figures based on antique models appear in Italy as early as the mid-thirteenth century, and by the mid-fifteenth century, nudes had become symbols of antiquity and its reincarnation.


By including such images in the MS, the author wished to separate his views from the church, and again, this theory can be reinforced by the application of heliocentric astrology images. The church at the time was anti-nudity, and very much of the geocentric persuasion.

This would lead to the position of the MS being an artistic and creative endeavor by a small group of individuals, all collaborating, and having one person script the manuscript by hand.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 09:16 PM
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This book is unique for one very simple reason amongst all others - it is unique because no-one can read it, whether you are from the 15th century or 20th century.

A book that no-one can read! Does this not strike you as rather peculiar?

If it were a work of fiction, why encode it? Why were Kings and Church interested in deciphering it?

Why take the time and expense to produce a worthless document?

The NSA believes there is definitely something to this manuscript. Since the late 70’s, retired intelligence officers have all attempted to decipher this Voynich manuscript – call it a parting challenge.

This book, called “The Voynich Manuscript - An Elegant Enigma” By M. E D’imperio is only available in its original form from the NSA central securities office in Fort Meade, Maryland. They have concluded that it is an encoded language. The most sophisticated computer analysis verifies that it is a “language”, there is meaning, the occurance of prefixes and suffixes and certain internal rules of grammar have been identified. This book is different than others written about the MS insofar that it is an accumulation of multiple studies – a sort of a running record of individual attempts at decipherment.

Brigadier Tiltman free pdf


The author felt that it would be useful to pull together all the information that he could obtain from all the sources and present them in an orderly fashion. This monograph is arranged in four main sections. First, the presentation of a survey of all of the basic facts of the problem: the “givens,” as it were. Second, coverage of all the primary avenues of attack and the information relevant to each, the external characteristics of the manuscript itself, the drawings, and the text. Third, a survey of the major claims of decipherment and other substantial analytic work carried out by various researchers. Fourth, a sketch of collateral and background topics which seem likely to be useful.


So in reasserting my claim in part 2 of this debate about the Elixir of Life and Alchemy in general as being the basis of the MS, it is important to bring to you attention one Johannes Trithemius (1 February 1462 – 13 December 1516), born Johann Heidenberg, was a German abbot, lexicographer, historian, cryptographer, polymath and occultist who had an influence on later occultism. Although born after the apparent date the MS was written, his knowledge came from somewhere.


Trithemius' most famous work is Steganographia (written c.1499; published Frankfurt, 1606, placed on theIndex Librorum Prohibitorum in 1609, removed in 1900). This book is in three volumes, and appears to be about magic - specifically, about using spirits to communicate over long distances. Since the publication of the decryption key to the first two volumes in 1606, they have been known to be actually concerned with cryptography and steganography. Until recently, the third volume was widely still believed to be solely about magic, but the "magical" formulae have now been shown to be cover texts for yet more cryptography content. However, mentions of the magical work within the third book by such figures as Agrippa and John Dee still lend credence to the idea of a mystic-magical foundation concerning the third volume. Additionally, while Trithemius's steganographic methods can be established to be free of the need for angelic-astrological mediation, still left intact is an underlying theological motive for their contrivance. The preface to the Polygraphia equally establishes, the everyday practicability of cryptography was conceived by Trithemius as a "secular consequent of the ability of a soul specially empowered by God to reach, by magical means, from earth to Heaven."The work has lent its name to the modern field of steganography
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Unlike military codes, a code for a heretical subject would, imo, need to be encoded using occult means, occult symbology and occult knowledge – is this the reason that we are yet to break to code?

For instance Dr Leo Levitov in his work“Solution of the Voynich manuscript - A Liturgical manual for the Endura Rite of the Cathari heresy. The Cult of Isis"asserts that the The women in the bath depicted are a Cathar sacrament – death by venesection (cutting of veins) in order to bleed to death in a warm bath. The plants all contain Cathary symbols – all of them. Likewise the celestial drawings showing numerous stars are synonymous with the Isis’s mantle. he further asserts that there is no code per se' but that it is in fact a Polyglot oral tongue (specifically Flemish) and written down so as to be understood by those who did not understand Latin.


The Cathars were the sole focus of the Church during the Inquisition with their 'Great heresy"

Before I finish, I wish to briefly discuss the "Voynich cylinders". I am of the opinion that they are Microscopes, even though the microscope had not been "officially" invented at the time of its apparent writing, the Viking Lenses verify that optical imagery analysis was in use as far back as the 12th century.



Many of the sketches within the MS appear to show images we would expect to see as viewed under a microscope - lending further credence to the Alchemy theory.


Alchemy and intrigue are the common denominators when one studies individuals involved in either acquiring the Voynich manuscript or studying it to determine its purpose. I am confident that one day soon the code will be broken and the contents contained therein finally revealed to the world as having a basis in fact - not fiction.
edit on 28-11-2012 by Sublimecraft because: added more links



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 11:13 PM
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My opponent asks questions, so I am giving responses.



If it were a work of fiction, why encode it?


Why do people make crosswords, jigsaws, and other puzzles? They like the challenge. People like to solve puzzles. As a puzzle book, the MS fits that definition.



Why take the time and expense to produce a worthless document?


Well, I can go to the store, and buy a thick crossword puzzle book, for 15 bucks. To others, it's a waste of time, but I love crosswords, and will solve them one by one. I have several books I work on, with no hurry, just something to do when I have the time. One's trash is another's treasure.

If the MS is such a treatise, then it's not something to be read and discarded, like a newspaper, but something more akin to a puzzle book. Puzzles the have different solutions. Entertainment in a time when the darkness was receding, when human bravery dared to put into words and pictures the yearning long repressed. Mystery, and challenge, the things people wanted at the end of the Dark Ages, new ideas, and fresh thoughts.

There's an analogy I can give. I go to the Library, in the Fiction section, and pick out a book. Oh, it's Science-Fiction, my favorite genre!

It has pictures, and words in it, but they are not pictures or words I am familiar with. The pictures show fantastical models of spaceships, of which don't exist, save within the book I'm reading, a conception the author has created, and published. The words, they describe the pictures, but not in words I am familiar with, weird words like fusion drive, anti-matter thrust, and cloaking shield, but they, the words, describe the concepts which have no basis in my current reality, but are so interesting to read.

I know it is a work of fiction, and I enjoy it. It's part of my nature, part of your nature, because it's human nature to create and share puzzles, information, and ideas.

There's no mystery there.

Even though the MS remains a mystery, it's not so hard to believe the basis of it is a puzzle book with origins in the 15th century mentality. The 1400's had no internet, no grocery stores, in fact, no running water or modern conveniences of any kind. Diversion from the mundane was spent playing games, reading picture books, and spending time imagining about fanciful theories.

Such thinking bloomed into the Renaissance, the Age of Discovery, and the minds behind the mystery of the Voynich Manuscript were the minds that helped shape future generations.

It's safe to say the MS was the beginning of a new age of discovery, a different method of thinking, a puzzle to help those of the time to hone their critical thinking skills, but whether it will be decoded, and unveil it's mysteries, is a fact that remains yet to be seen.

In closing, I wish to thank Sublimecraft for an interesting discussion of a century old mystery. It's only by viewing both sides of argument that we are able to see into the middle of it, and for that, I would think we both part the discussion all the more wiser.

I wish to thank the judges for their time reading, and providing their insight.

To the mods, a special thanks for giving approvals and watching our verbal antics, and doing the job you selflessly endure.

With that, I will close this debate, and bow in appreciation to everyone's efforts.

Thank you.



posted on Dec, 2 2012 @ 01:20 AM
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Judgments:





This was a very compelling and interesting debate with great depth and availability of external source material to draw from.

In judging it I determined not to access the external content before rendering a decision as I felt that doing so would disrupt the spirit of a character limited debate. But I am thankful for the external links and plan to access them all for personal enjoyment.

Both participants did an amazing job of presenting their cases. I did, however, find a singular flaw within each argument:

In Sublimecraft's case - he began very strongly, but then focusing upon the "elixir of life" aspect weakened his argument considerably. IMO the subject itself gave him the high ground, as the Voynich document itself simply exudes the "feel" of an arcane work. In trying to define that, Sublimecraft narrowed his options and left the door open for Druid42 to attack the specifics of that claim.

Druid42, sadly, missed that window of opportunity. Instead he focused upon the notion that the Voynich manuscript was something of an early work of fiction. Aspects of this argument, in my opinion were very compelling - particularly that it was encoded to avoid the wrath of the Church. IMO this opened a very interesting path that Druid42 then failed to pursue in his closing post. Some very interesting people lived in that time period and Druid42 could easily have taken us into some fun speculations regarding the renaissance after tabling the issue.

Both participants were very strong in their research and referencing - demonstrating that they both put a great deal of time and consideration into this debate - and that is something to be appreciated and applauded by the readers of this debate. There is enough information contained within the six posts to keep the curious mind busy for weeks. So kudos to both participants.

In the end, though I disagree with his "elixir of life" conclusions, I have to give this one, by a hair, to Sublimecraft for providing the most compelling argument that this manuscript, whatever it is, is not a hoax or a fake.








Well, first off I’d just like to point out that this was a very entertaining debate to read and also an incredibly hard debate to judge. Both fighters have done a good job and should both be proud.

Through the course of the debate however, I do feel as though Sublime did a much better job and brought forward a much more convincing, more toned case. One that Druid initially did well to keep up with and counter, but towards the end of the debate I think the enthusiasm was gone and I felt as though he was rushing and wanted it to be over already. Bearing that in mind I think Druid certainly started strong but It just didn’t seem to last. Sublime also started strongly but he was able to keep up the pace and he provided a strong case throughout.

I would’ve liked to have seen Druid expand on his arguments, again, particularly towards the end of the debate where he seemed to fall apart a little bit, effectively handing the debate to his opponent after a relatively strong start.

Sublime is the winner in my eyes.



Sublimecraft is the winner





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