The Real Rise of the Machines...

www.guardian.co.uk...

Japanese Gundam army coming soon.

Maybe the Gods made us and we rose up against them and wiped them out, now its our turn to suffer the same fate.

I'm kind of on a short leash tonight, so I haven't yet read all the replies, so hopefully someone hasn't expounded on Bill Joy's seminal artilce published in Wired Magazine way back in the year 2000.

Why the Future Doesn't Need Us

Joy was Chief Scientist at Sun Microsystems. It's kind of a dystopian Ray Kurzweil approach that is appalled by the future rather than overjoyed at it. It really yanked some chains when it was first published. Well worth the read.

My previous post got hit with the dreaded page divider of doom.

Wanted to get your opinion on the logic, more like "lack of logic"

Fun post OP S&F!!

"Skunk Works" has some of the best material in my opinion.

Here is a thought I have been thinking lately, kinda mixes in with your post.

What if "WE" are the machines? I put that in quotes for a reason. Allow me to explain, it may take a moment

Most of you on ATS should be familiar with the concept of linear time being an "illusion".

Basically..

Linear time or what we think of "time" is the perception of something in our mind that relies on memories of our "past" and also a projection into a "future" event. Ultimately everything is happening right now. The "past" and the "future" only exist in our mind. You can also see this in a spiritual light ~ some would call this new perception the end of suffering, or "enlightenment".

Hopefully you have heard of these concepts to grasp the straw I will be reaching for in the following explanation.

This line of thought sometimes ties my mind into a knot.

Bare with me

Now for there to even be this "now" that some have felt (it can't be found in the mind/thought) or experienced, this "now" has to already have been established, or created.

That sentence doesn't make sense because the "words" we use to describe things are limited. For example our minds interpretation of the word now comes preloaded with the notion of a genesis, or a beginning point. This is why enlightenment is hard to achieve, we look for this "now" in our mind where it will never be found/felt.

Now if we can agree that everything is indeed happening now

This opens up some interesting thoughts when looking at AI, or biological machines. for instance.

If everything that has happened or will ever happen is happening in this "now" moment, then humans have already created AI, or biological machines. What we call our awareness could possibly be artificial intelligence, and what we experience today is actually our (AI) past.

What "we" (as in) our "awareness" is experiencing is how "we" (AI) were created by humans.

The human brain could simply be a very powerful "computer", after death all our "memories" are uploaded to the main frame or source. The logical thing to do at that point (point of view of "source"), would be to divide yourself up into many different forms to have a first hand experience of your "our" ~ creation/creators.

You (as source) would need to forget you are in fact the creator and the source, that way the experience you have here feels real.

This would then make an excellent way for a more advanced species to "teach" their young. The lessons learned would be invaluable I imagine, and also could work on some level as "therapy" for this more advanced species.

You could in essence obtain millions of year of information in linear time, in what would be maybe 1 hour (or less) in your "time". Or you could "manipulate" the program to provide individual lessons (therapy), but the overall creation or the "ending" so to speak would always be the same.

Under this theory the "ending" would be when humans create the "big bang", that actually formed the entire universe in the "beginning". The end and the beginning would be one in the same. The alpha and the omega so to speak.

As for actually changing the "ending"

Maybe you could remember your true nature as "source" and begin creating while in this form. Perhaps creating something "new", or different than your previous creation.

I might make a thread sometime if I ever work these "thoughts" out in a more detailed and easier to understand explanation.

I know most of that will be hard to follow.

And remember this is a just a "thought", your post just brought it to mind.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Excellent thread Slayer. I think that I'll just leave you with two quotes, both from the Matrix universe:

Narrator: “Thus did man become the architect of his own demise. But for a time it was good. The machines worked tirelessly to do man’s bidding.

“It was not long before seeds of descent took root. Though loyal and pure, the machines earned no respect from their masters, these strange and loosely multiplying mammals. Source transcript the Animatrix, Second Renaissance www.matrixfans.net... ”

and the next quote comes from Morpheus himself talking to Neo:

Welcome to the Desert of the Real. We have only bits and pieces of information but what we know for certain is that at some point in the early twenty-first century all of mankind was united in celebration. We marveled at our own magnificence as we gave birth to AI. Source transcript thematrixtruth.remoteviewinglight.com...

If it is true, that machines and A.I. are trying to take over reality, then we must not feed it with fear. And I should like to think that somewhere, out there, is a NEO or a John Connor, who is willing to fight for humanity if the situation between man and machine comes to such a dreadful conflict.

Originally posted by schuyler
I'm kind of on a short leash tonight, so I haven't yet read all the replies, so hopefully someone hasn't expounded on Bill Joy's seminal artilce published in Wired Magazine way back in the year 2000.

Why the Future Doesn't Need Us

Joy was Chief Scientist at Sun Microsystems. It's kind of a dystopian Ray Kurzweil approach that is appalled by the future rather than overjoyed at it. It really yanked some chains when it was first published. Well worth the read.

If the machines are permitted to make all their own decisions, we can't make any conjectures as to the results, because it is impossible to guess how such machines might behave. We only point out that the fate of the human race would be at the mercy of the machines. It might be argued that the human race would never be foolish enough to hand over all the power to the machines. But we are suggesting neither that the human race would voluntarily turn power over to the machines nor that the machines would willfully seize power. What we do suggest is that the human race might easily permit itself to drift into a position of such dependence on the machines that it would have no practical choice but to accept all of the machines' decisions. As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide.

I haven't read all of that yet but it makes me want to say....

You're kidding right?
We are already there right now, being controled by the machines that have been built to control/help/direct us, some of them are biological some of them are technological, collectively they do the job already.

Having a defective or 'incomplete' biological in charge of technology amounts to the same thing as purely technological without a heart.
They are both very flawed

Originally posted by FoosM
Maybe the Gods made us and we rose up against them and wiped them out, now its our turn to suffer the same fate.

I think you just summed up "all of science fiction" and "all of classical literature" in one complete sentence Foos. Bravo

Awesome, the cartels will love these things...........gives whole new meaning to drug mules.

Just popping in to say that this is a great thread very interesting read.

Good job SLAYER!

-SAP-

Amazing thread slayer. The advancements if robotics is incredible. I wonder what they have behind closed doors?

reply to post by SLAYER69


This article discusses the

'Terminator' risk to be investigated by scientists

it is also discussed here

Cambridge boffins fear 'Pandora's Unboxing' and RISE of the MACHINES

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thanks for sharing, good thread. The problem with having robots working for us is the unpredictability. A slight malfunction in the machine and they can do lots of damage, maybe even go on a murder spree and we won't see it coming. At least with humans one can gauge if they're gonna do something sinister or stupid, like a look, or a vibe they give off. Robots won't have that.

As for robot soldiers if said malfunction mentioned above occurs humans will also end up fighting and destroying the things. So why not just fight wars ourselves instead of creating added problems. In the end it's our world and we alone have to maintain it.

This poster should make you stop and think.
I think the reason it is discounted and make fun of by so many is if one takes the time to think though this topic the logical conclusions are truly realistic and scary.

I think this due to 4 things in life I have experienced to witch only one is directly related to sci-fi movies.

Number one.
When I got married in 1999 I went on my honeymoon to disneyworld. There I saw a movie used fully articulate T-800.
The detail was amazing. It dwarfed me (I am 6"2" and at that time 225). The only thing that showed it was not "real" was the chromed cables comming out the back. However the detail was so good that all you needed was a small computer control and power source. NOTE that is all to be a true terminator.

Number Two
When my first daughter was born every mental event was a suprise. Like when at 2 she went all that time with limited one-word communication. Then out of the blue she said a 3 sylable word (halloween) and communicated in full sentences.

Number three.
When my second was a preme with some brain damage any and all typical milestones (with or without help) were unexpected (enjoyed) and even the experts were suprised.

Number four.
I watched (remember I am over 40) many of todays kids and young adults that go ape when their tablet/smart phone/FB/internet connection is not available. We see even doing basic math without a calculator/app gives 17 year olds at mcD problems. Or that now if you don't have u-tube to go to no one can seem to find how to do (ex) home repair. In short no one seems to know what books are for.

Now how does this relate to a terminator situation...PLENTY.

It shows we have become dependent on computers to the point that such things as basic math and using (gasp) BOOKS for information is laughed at.

We spend more and have more technology than food in alot of homes.

We are developing robots to be stronger, faster, and smarter for MILITARY applications AKA WAR/KILLING/BREAKING THINGS to a level that is kept secret from the public.


We know and have studied children/childhood development. But something as simple as a baby saying MAMA cannot be predicted. However we think we can know, predict, control when a AI becomes self aware?

But yet we think we can control our creations at all times?
Are we so arrogant to think that AI is only limited to what we program into it?
BTW that is called a computer and not what true AI/ AI development is all about.

Do we think that if AI does become a reality it cannot be evil, good, paranoid, self centered, or suffer mental issues?

Please look into the abyss as it were doubters.

If you achieve AI it is no different than a bioligical entity. It maybe only made of mental and chips. But if it functions like a bioligical brain than its potential is the same as us at a minimum.

There is no guarnentee that it will not be another einstein, hitler, hanibal lector, or a paranoid boyfriend.

Now add we are more dependent on tech , give it armor/weapons greater than ourselfs, and more control of other tech and how do you not see a "terminator 3" world?

I know we cannot stop progress or evolution.
But lets not be in such a hurry to create want at present we cannot understand, much less hope to control.

Just remember what we did to ourselves playing with x-rays/radiation in the 1900-1940's.
How much needless injury and death happened?
That could not think for itself or built like a terminator.

Whatever can happen will happen. The question is of the extent of such things. To an extreme extent any development can become harmful.

Awesome OP btw

not sure if anyone mentioned it earlier but i did see a reply about the internet spawning its own entity. This was covered in the excellent anime series of Ghost in the shell, where some form of conscious became present free floating throughout the internet and started to develop sort of a personality. Its a very interesting concept and doesnt seem so far fetched, especially if some future A.I. program decides to go rogue

reply to post by magma


What concerns me is the fact that the U.S. Government/Military is at least 35 years ahead of the private sector..... and anything that we are shown on the idiot box. That being said...... so say 20 years? By that rationale they are already 15 years past the fear threshold. Be wary, my friends.

The most important thing we can learn from this thread is the acknowledgement of an ongoing (millennial) struggle between humans and technology. The choices we are required to make in each and every day bring us closer, bit by bit, to a different understanding about the relationships of mankind and machines.

We only need to look at ourselves everyday -- and the decisions we are making -- are they better decisions for humanity or do they serve another purpose?

SkyNet *will happen* if we make the choices that go in that direction!
First RoboCops then Terminators *will happen* if we continue to go down the that technological decision tree.

On the more positive side. If we could get 7+ billion smart phones into the hands of 7+ billion people, on an open and free access global net, wouldn't that serve humanity? I think it would perhaps exemplify the ongoing relationship between man and technology: we can't live without it.

Something to consider...

Perhaps.... the Singularity has already occurred.

Witness the dehumanization of man, and the continuing process thereof.
Witness the computerization of everything that is needed to run and maintain modern civilization.

Perhaps the Singularity is sly and subtle.

Though now, not quite so subtle, as it ramps up on the surface of things.

With robotics.

And just beneath the physical surface of things.

With nano-tech.
Via chemtrailing we could well all have components for further control.
With yet more to come.

Rendering a compliant populace.
Ever wonder why so many are so apathetic, so compliant?

With robotics to deal with those who prove more resilient, more robust, more autonomous, more... human, "rebellious."

The Singularity, in Control of Man already... and... just.... tightening the Net, The Control Grid....

reply to post by SLAYER69


I don't think there will be time to make the development into the world of AI and advanced robotics because Humanity is already on the fast track to destroying ourselves! our own arrogance threatens us more then anything we have created thus far!
Thinking we can do as we like to the environment and there being no consequences! We think we are Gods and that we can improve on the creators version of sustenance (GMOs), though there has been no real study of the consequences of these frankenfoods! There are many things to worry about that threaten us now so why worry about something that wont be invented or perfected for several decades?
I think it's pretty arrogant to assume we will be here in several decades!

Personally, I'm worried about the robotic killer bees. They say they are just honey bees for search and rescue but if they can do that they can do search and destroy. Imagine being attacked by thousands of robotic bees.