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TriHealth fires 150 employees for not getting flu shots

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posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by TiredofControlFreaks
 


oh - and of course - the biggest problem with the study. Not everyone brings their kids to emerg for the flu!
In United States where health care is not free to all people. People are less likely to bring their kids to emerg than in Canada where every child has health care provided free of charge. Even poor kids and even immigrants. No Canadian hospital would turn away a sick kid.


This study is seriously flawed and the conclusions are unsupported.

Tired of Control Freaks




posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Oh, for Christ's sake. You really are reaching now. You messed up and now you are trying to parse words to keep yourself from looking silly.
and you just can't drop the bone, no matter how picked-over it is, can ya?
rather admit your error, you go down the road of personal attack.
'nuff said.

fascits love "control" more than anything else ... see any of your posts for examples.

when or if you can explain what disease vs virus has to do with the "topic of this thread", we'll continue. otherwise, get back on topic and drop the bone already.

No employer has the right to force any employee to be penetrated in such a manner, period.

as an assumed member of the Armed Services, you have never had the option to openly 'object' ... so, your opinion does not surprise me.

however, your choice to relinquish your own freedom does not follow to the civilian population.
that is the contract YOU signed, don't try to force it on everyone else.


Very well said.

And NO employer has the right to force this on a employee.

Those who like fascism ; need to spend some time in China

WORKING in CHina ; especially

This would "cure" them fast



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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For everyone who wants to learn how to read studies, I strongly recommend this video. The presenter is strongly supportive of the paleo diet so he has his own biases but he does present information in a very simple and entertaining way.

LOL you can see his bias against smokers when he says things like "Everybody knows that smokers get more strokes and heart disease). Its funny because when he makes that statement he is relying on the same types of flawed studies that are critical of the paleo diet.

cagecanada.blogspot.ca...

Tired of Control Freaks



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

If we are going to go the reducto ad absurdum route, conversely do you seriously see the other extreme, where a worker gets paid to stay home and not work at all, as right as well? Logically, the employee brings value to the employer. They both want a mutually beneficial relationship. Some jobs have criteria that must or should be met to do the job well but takes some sacrificice on the part of the employee (health standards, time away from family, etc.) If these requirements are too onerous, the employee should go elsewere. If enough employees go elsewere and the employer does not have enough employees, he is faced with the choice to close up shop, change the requirements, or raise the pay and benefits to such a level that employees will come to him inspite of the requirements. This is how a free society works.


Yes that's right, it's called Paid Time Off or PTO. It's quite common in developed countries, although Americans do get the least of developed nations. At good companies sick days fall into this category, in bad companies they don't but the worker is still able to take the day off being sick.

When there's a real unemployment rate (actual unemployed/underemployed, not the lower jobs number the government pushes) averaging nearly 20% across the country people don't have the luxury of leaving jobs for ones where they're treated like actual human beings. Because of that employers act just like dictators. It's not a free society when your employer is able to dictate how you treat your body.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by Artistic

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Oh, for Christ's sake. You really are reaching now. You messed up and now you are trying to parse words to keep yourself from looking silly.
and you just can't drop the bone, no matter how picked-over it is, can ya?
rather admit your error, you go down the road of personal attack.
'nuff said.

fascits love "control" more than anything else ... see any of your posts for examples.

when or if you can explain what disease vs virus has to do with the "topic of this thread", we'll continue. otherwise, get back on topic and drop the bone already.

No employer has the right to force any employee to be penetrated in such a manner, period.

as an assumed member of the Armed Services, you have never had the option to openly 'object' ... so, your opinion does not surprise me.

however, your choice to relinquish your own freedom does not follow to the civilian population.
that is the contract YOU signed, don't try to force it on everyone else.


Very well said.

And NO employer has the right to force this on a employee.

Those who like fascism ; need to spend some time in China

WORKING in CHina ; especially

This would "cure" them fast


You keep saying that, but it is obvious you have never spent any time in China yourself. Where is the government involvement, like it is in China? Where is the force? If someone does not like it, they can leave. This is what we call freedom.

Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join. In addition, since you obviously do not understand how the military in the US works, I have ceartain rights and obligations spelled out by law and I have a means for redress of greivences.

I laugh at your "personal attack" whining. What have you been doing to me all along but making it personal?



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc
Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join.


What's the "arraingement"? You used it twice, this must be a military term.


I have a means for redress of greivences.


What's a "greivence"?



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


still can't stay on topic, can ya ?


What you said is like saying that AIDS is not a disease, but a virus. AIDS is a disease state caused by the HIV, a virus. If you cannot even grasp this simple concept, you won't learn anything about this subject matter.
AIDS is not a virus, however, it is a disease.

a respiratory illness is not a 'disease' yet.
pneumonia ?, sure, since it was first discovered.
COPD, definately.
lung cancer, absolutely.
influenza, not quite.

and your opinion is likely derived from indocrination and kickbacks, so why bother discussing it ? if you're going to be honest with everyone ... do tell, what likely kickbacks is the company receiving to force it's employees to comply ??


"Idonctination?" "KIckbacks?" Now were are getting into the realm of the irrational. You agree that pneumonia is a disease? But how can that be? Pneumonia can be caused by influenza? Mayo clinic:


Viruses. Some of the same types of viruses that cause the flu and colds can also cause pneumonia. Although most cases of viral pneumonia are mild and resolve in time with rest and fluids, viral pneumonia caused by influenza viruses can become very serious. Viral pneumonia can set up a prime environment for the invasion of bacteria, causing a second infection


Holy crap! Yet again you demonstrate you haven't a clue or a basic understanding of what you are taling about.

There are no company kickbacks making the hospital mandate flu shots. That is a stupid, unwarrented, and illegal situation. What they are doing is trying to reduce



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NavyDoc
Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join.


What's the "arraingement"? You used it twice, this must be a military term.


I have a means for redress of greivences.


What's a "greivence"?


Oh, for crying out loud. Are starting on typos now? C'mon, that is the last resort of those without an arguement.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Oh, for Christ's sake. You really are reaching now. You messed up and now you are trying to parse words to keep yourself from looking silly.
and you just can't drop the bone, no matter how picked-over it is, can ya?
rather admit your error, you go down the road of personal attack.
'nuff said.

fascits love "control" more than anything else ... see any of your posts for examples.

when or if you can explain what disease vs virus has to do with the "topic of this thread", we'll continue. otherwise, get back on topic and drop the bone already.

No employer has the right to force any employee to be penetrated in such a manner, period.

as an assumed member of the Armed Services, you have never had the option to openly 'object' ... so, your opinion does not surprise me.

however, your choice to relinquish your own freedom does not follow to the civilian population.
that is the contract YOU signed, don't try to force it on everyone else.

Gotta love your hyperbole. "Fascist" , "control." I haven't tried to control anyone. I've just explained the actual science behind the issue and opined that anyone who disagrees should be free to go. "Free to go" has nothing to do with fascism and obviously we need to educate you about what fascism really is.

DIsease vs virus has everything to do with the thread because if you cannot understand the basic principles of the disease process and immunology, you cannot understand the underlying principles of the topic discussed.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
reply to post by Glinda
 


Either we stand together and lobby polititions for employee protection laws - or we all walk into slavery together.

Tired of Control Freaks


Problem is they have manipulated the political spectrum so much that conservatives who might support a ban to universal health care would in the same breath support an employers right to do whatever they want to their employees. We have a systemic problem. Its like we are being herded to support either corporate facism or government communism. Either direction leads to loss of individual freedom. Just as there is a right for a group of people to form a business, so should their be a right of workers to form a group to resist employers attempts to limit their free choice. Like you said either way, "we all walk into slavery together."



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Navydoc

I have read one of the studies you provided:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Effect of expanded US recommendations for seasonal influenza vaccination: comparison of two pediatric emergency departments in the United States and Canada. Hoen AG, Buckeridge DL, Charland KM, Mandl KD, Quach C, Brownstein JS.

The study period in this study is suspicious all by itself.



We examined data for 2000/2001 through 2008/2009 and estimated relative changes in visits to the emergency department for influenza-like illness at two pediatric hospitals, one in Boston, Massachusetts, and the other in Montréal, Quebec, following the US policy change. Models were adjusted for virologic factors, seasonal trends and all-cause utilization of the emergency department."


Now why would they use a study period of 9 years when in fact, the critical difference between the control group (Canadian Hospital) and the subject group (US hospital) occurred only during the 2006/2007 season?

Despite the stated goals of the study, the data used for the study included more years when the control group and the subject group were exactly the same then the number of years in which they were different.

The study also states that they controlled for:


Models were adjusted for virologic factors, seasonal trends and all-cause utilization of the emergency department.


However, they did not control for which kids had been vaccinated and which hadn't? Is it possible that some Canadian parents chose to get the vaccination even in the absence of a recommendation.

Further, although the results of the study were statistically significant (in mathematical terms) the results were clinically insignificant (ie less than 200 % difference). In any study, a difference of less than 200 % is considered to be due to chance or bias by the researcher.

I am quite sure that you are intelligent enough to google the difference and meaning of the words statistically significant vs clinically significant.

Why did they not report the number of Canadian kids that were included in the study as a separate number from the US kids?

Then it would have been possible to determine clinical significance. Without that information, this study is worthless and is more likely to be a pr exercise bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical companies.

I am not saying that there are no valid studies out there but this one sure isn't one of them.

Out of the 20 studies you provided - could you pick out the one that you think proves your point the best?
Tired of Control Freaks



You can't take a single study, you have to take the literature as a whole. I pasted 20 studies out of 175 from one website. Which point do you want me to prove? That the vaccine reduces the risk of infection? Here is a couple:
www.iep.org... ur%20Physicians/Journal%20Club/12.03.09/effectiveness%20of%20live%20attenuated%20to%20inactivated%20.pdf




Ashkenazi S, Vertruyen A, Arístegui J, Esposito S, McKeith DD, Klemola T, Biolek J, Kühr J, Bujnowski T, Desgrandchamps D, Cheng SM, Skinner J, Gruber WC, Forrest BD; CAIV-T Study Group. Superior relative efficacy of live attenuated influenza vaccine compared with inactivated influenza vaccine in young children with recurrent respiratory tract infections. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006;25(10):870-9. PDF Link

Belshe RB, Mendelman PM, Treanor J, King J, Gruber WC, Piedra P, Bernstein DI, Hayden FG, Kotloff K, Zangwill K, Iacuzio D, Wolff M. The efficacy of live attenuated, cold-adapted, trivalent, intranasal influenza virus vaccine in children. N Engl J Med. 1998;338(20):1405-12. PDF Link

Belshe RB, Gruber WC. Prevention of otitis media in children with live attenuated influenza vaccine given intranasally. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2000;19(5 Suppl):S66-71.

Belshe RB, Edwards KM, Vesikari T, Black SV, Walker RE, Hultquist M, Kemble G, Connor EM; CAIV-T Comparative Efficacy Study Group. Live attenuated versus inactivated influenza vaccine in infants and young children. N Engl J Med. 2007;356(7):685-96 .

Beran J, Vesikari T, Wertzova V, Karvonen A, Honegr K, Lindblad N, Van Belle P, Peeters M, Innis BL, Devaster JM. Efficacy of inactivated split-virus influenza vaccine against culture-confirmed influenza in healthy adults: a prospective, randomized, placebo-controlled trial. J Infect Dis 2009;200(12):1861-9. PDF Link

Bridges CB, Thompson WW, Meltzer MI, Reeve GR, Talamonti WJ, Cox NJ, Lilac HA, Hall H, Klimov A, Fukuda K. Effectiveness and cost-benefit of influenza vaccination of healthy working adults: A randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2000;284(13):1655-63. PDF Link

Fleming DM, Crovari P, Wahn U, Klemola T, Schlesinger Y, Langussis A, Øymar K, Garcia ML, Krygier A, Costa H, Heininger U, Pregaldien JL, Cheng SM, Skinner J, Razmpour A, Saville M, Gruber WC, Forrest B; CAIV-T Asthma Study Group. Comparison of the efficacy and safety of live attenuated cold-adapted influenza vaccine, trivalent, with trivalent inactivated influenza virus vaccine in children and adolescents with asthma. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2006;25(10):860-9.

Govaert TM, Thijs CT, Masurel N, Sprenger MJ, Dinant GJ, Knottnerus JA. The efficacy of influenza vaccination in elderly individuals. A randomized double-blind placebo-controlled trial. JAMA. 1994;272(21):1661-5. PDF Link

Herrera GA, Iwane MK, Cortese M, Brown C, Gershman K, Shupe A, Averhoff F, Chaves SS, Gargiullo P, Bridges CB. Influenza vaccine effectiveness among 50-64-year-old persons during a season of poor antigenic match between vaccine and circulating influenza virus strains: Colorado, United States, 2003-2004. Vaccine. 2007;25(1):154-60. PDF Link

Hayward AC, Harling R, Wetten S, Johnson A, Munro S, Smedley J, Murad S, Watson JM; Effectiveness of an influenza vaccine programme for care home staff to prevent death, morbidity, and health service use among residents: cluster randomized controlled trial. BMJ 2006;333:1241. PDF Link

Hoberman A, Greenberg DP, Paradise JL, Rockette HE, Lave JR, Kearney DH, Colborn DK, Kurs-Lasky M, Haralam MA, Byers CJ, Zoffel LM, Fabian IA, Bernard BS, Kerr JD. Effectiveness of inactivated influenza vaccine in preventing acute otitis media in young children: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2003;290(12):1608-16. PDF Link

Jackson LA, Gaglani MJ, Keyserling HL, Balser J, Bouveret N, Fries L, Treanor JJ. Safety, efficacy, and immunogenicity of an inactivated influenza vaccine in healthy adults: a randomized, placebo-controlled trial over two influenza seasons. BMC Infect Dis. 2010;10:71. PDF Link

Monto AS, Hornbuckle K, Ohmit SE. Influenza vaccine effectiveness among elderly nursing home residents: a cohort study. Am J Epidemiol. 2001;154(2):155-60. PDF Link

Monto AS, Ohmit SE, Petrie JG, Johnson E, Truscon R, Teich E, Rotthoff J, Boulton M, Victor JC. Comparative efficacy of inactivated and live attenuated influenza vaccines. N Engl J Med. 2009;361(13):1260-7 .

Neuzil KM, Dupont WD, Wright PF, Edwards KM. Efficacy of inactivated and cold-adapted vaccines against influenza A infection, 1985 to 1990: the pediatric experience. Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2001;20(8):733-40 .

Nichol KL, Mendelman PM, Mallon KP, Jackson LA, Gorse GJ, Belshe RB, Glezen WP, Wittes J. Effectiveness of live, attenuated intranasal influenza virus vaccine in healthy, working adults: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 1999;282(2):137-44. PDF Link

Petrie JG, Ohmit SE, Johnson E, Cross RT, Monto AS. Efficacy Studies of Influenza Vaccines: Effect of End Points Used and Characteristics of Vaccine Failures. JID. 2011;203(9):1309-1315. PDF Link

Treanor JJ, Kotloff K, Betts RF, Belshe R, Newman F, Iacuzio D, Wittes J, Bryant M. Evaluation of trivalent, live, cold-adapted (CAIV-T) and inactivated (TIV) influenza vaccines in prevention of virus infection and illness following challenge of adults with wild-type influenza A (H1N1), A (H3N2), and B viruses. Vaccine. 1999;18(9-10):899-906. PDF Link




posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


NavyDoc

Your point seems to be that the right of an employer to demand that employees take the flu shot or be terminated is justified by the fact that the flu shot is effective in preventing the spread of the flu.

Fair enough! Its a point. But then you posted 20 studies that you claim proved your point.

I looked at the first one on the list and it was crap that proved NOTHING.

Now I am not prepared to examine 20 studies to see if you are correct. I am willing to look at one or even two to see if you can prove your point.

Would you like to tell me and provide links for the one or two studies that you believe proves your point?

Tired of Control Freaks



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:07 PM
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Or is the question that flu vaccines in healthcare clinicians prevent infections in patients?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.shea-online.org... L_9-28.pdf
Saito R, Suzuki H, O#ani H, Sakai T, Seki N, Tanabe N. The effectiveness of influenza vaccine against influenza A (H3N2) virus infections in nursing homes in Niigata, Japan, during the 1998--1999 and 1999--2000 seasons. Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol 2002;23:82--6.

Cunney RJ, Bialachowski A, Thornley D, Smaill FM, Pennie RA. An outbreak of influenza A in a neonatal intensive care unit. Infect Control Hosp Epidemiol 2000;21:449--54.

Carman WF, Elder AG, Wallace LA, et al. Effects of influenza vaccination of health-care workers on mortality of elderly people in long-term care: a randomised controlled trial. Lancet 2000;355(9198): 93--7.

Saxen H, Virtanen M. Randomized, placebo-controlled double blind study on the efficacy of influenza immunization on absenteeism of health care workers. Pediatr Infect Dis J 1999;18:779--83.

Wilde JA, McMillan JA, Serwint J, Butta J, O'Riordan MA, Steinhoff MC. Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in health care professionals: a randomized trial. JAMA 1999;281:908--13.

Potter J, Stott DJ, Roberts MA, et al. Influenza vaccination of health care workers in long-term-care hospitals reduces the mortality of elderly patients. J Infect Dis 1997;175:1--6.



Here are the facts:
1.) the flu vaccine reduces the chance of a flu infection. It does not eliminate it, it reduces it. 100% risk reduction is almost impossible.

2). Healthy adults don't need the vaccine because in healthy adults, we have a self limited DISEASE that rarely causes death or long term illness. Most likely a healthy adult feels crappy for a week and then recovers. Rarely does the disease become life threatening in someone otherwise healthy.

3). People at risk of complications: the immunocompromised, COPD, very old, and so forth should get the vaccine because their risk of dying from complications of an influenza infection outweigh the risks of the innoculation.


Some injection-based flu vaccines intended for adults in the United States contain thiomersal (also known as thimerosal). Despite some controversy in the media,[144] the World Health Organization (WHO) has concluded that there is no evidence of toxicity from thiomersal in vaccines and no reason on grounds of safety to change to more-expensive single-dose administration.[145]

Although Guillain-Barré syndrome had been feared as a complication of vaccination, the CDC states that most studies on modern influenza vaccines have seen no link with Guillain-Barré.[146][147]

A review has concluded that the 2009 H1N1 ("swine flu") vaccine has a safety profile similar to that of seasonal vaccine.[148] Although one review gives an incidence of about one case per million vaccinations,[149] a large study in China, reported in The New England Journal of Medicine covering close to 100 million doses of vaccine against the 2009 H1N1 "swine" flu found only eleven cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, (0.1 per million doses) total incidence in persons vaccinated, actually lower than the normal rate of the disease in China, and no other notable side effects; "The risk-benefit ratio, which is what vaccines and everything in medicine is about, is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccination."[150] Getting infected by influenza itself increases both the risk of death (up to 1 in 10,000) and increases the risk of developing Guillain-Barré syndrome to a much higher level than the highest level of suspected vaccine involvement (approx. 10 times higher by 2009 estimates).[151][152]



4). The studies (posted above) demonstrate that healthcare providers who are vaccinated protect their at risk patients and they should be vaccinated. I rather think that this is a noble act: to take on some risk (however very, very, very small) upon yourself to protect those people you care for.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by TiredofControlFreaks
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


NavyDoc

Your point seems to be that the right of an employer to demand that employees take the flu shot or be terminated is justified by the fact that the flu shot is effective in preventing the spread of the flu.

Fair enough! Its a point. But then you posted 20 studies that you claim proved your point.

I looked at the first one on the list and it was crap that proved NOTHING.

Now I am not prepared to examine 20 studies to see if you are correct. I am willing to look at one or even two to see if you can prove your point.

Would you like to tell me and provide links for the one or two studies that you believe proves your point?

Tired of Control Freaks


I've added a whole bunch more. Now, to be fair, instead of saying "they don't prove your point" you have to explain, logically and scientifically WHY they do not prove my point. "It's part of a conspiracy" does not count.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Artistic

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Oh, for Christ's sake. You really are reaching now. You messed up and now you are trying to parse words to keep yourself from looking silly.
and you just can't drop the bone, no matter how picked-over it is, can ya?
rather admit your error, you go down the road of personal attack.
'nuff said.

fascits love "control" more than anything else ... see any of your posts for examples.

when or if you can explain what disease vs virus has to do with the "topic of this thread", we'll continue. otherwise, get back on topic and drop the bone already.

No employer has the right to force any employee to be penetrated in such a manner, period.

as an assumed member of the Armed Services, you have never had the option to openly 'object' ... so, your opinion does not surprise me.

however, your choice to relinquish your own freedom does not follow to the civilian population.
that is the contract YOU signed, don't try to force it on everyone else.


Very well said.

And NO employer has the right to force this on a employee.

Those who like fascism ; need to spend some time in China

WORKING in CHina ; especially

This would "cure" them fast


You keep saying that, but it is obvious you have never spent any time in China yourself. Where is the government involvement, like it is in China? Where is the force? If someone does not like it, they can leave. This is what we call freedom.

Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join. In addition, since you obviously do not understand how the military in the US works, I have ceartain rights and obligations spelled out by law and I have a means for redress of greivences.

I laugh at your "personal attack" whining. What have you been doing to me all along but making it personal?

I have never lived in China


But I have seen why american companies want to go there ; instead of here


A company I worked for had a sister company in CHina and I witnessed how those poor people were treated.

They have NO workman's comp, NO osha regulation;

basically nothing for the employee.

They had no heating or air conditioning in the area

So, during extreme temperatures; you guessed it....many got sick

If an employee is injured ; they don't get compensation; Good luck!! to them

THis is a system I am sure some in charge would love to see here....

This is why when I see employers becoming dictators

and requiring intrusive things to keep a job

I think back to these poor workers in China

I believe if we here in america don't stand up and stop these things

we will one day become like this



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 

and that is the kind of rhetoric that gives ATS a bad name.
carry on.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by Artistic

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Artistic

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Oh, for Christ's sake. You really are reaching now. You messed up and now you are trying to parse words to keep yourself from looking silly.
and you just can't drop the bone, no matter how picked-over it is, can ya?
rather admit your error, you go down the road of personal attack.
'nuff said.

fascits love "control" more than anything else ... see any of your posts for examples.

when or if you can explain what disease vs virus has to do with the "topic of this thread", we'll continue. otherwise, get back on topic and drop the bone already.

No employer has the right to force any employee to be penetrated in such a manner, period.

as an assumed member of the Armed Services, you have never had the option to openly 'object' ... so, your opinion does not surprise me.

however, your choice to relinquish your own freedom does not follow to the civilian population.
that is the contract YOU signed, don't try to force it on everyone else.


Very well said.

And NO employer has the right to force this on a employee.

Those who like fascism ; need to spend some time in China

WORKING in CHina ; especially

This would "cure" them fast


You keep saying that, but it is obvious you have never spent any time in China yourself. Where is the government involvement, like it is in China? Where is the force? If someone does not like it, they can leave. This is what we call freedom.

Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join. In addition, since you obviously do not understand how the military in the US works, I have ceartain rights and obligations spelled out by law and I have a means for redress of greivences.

I laugh at your "personal attack" whining. What have you been doing to me all along but making it personal?

I have never lived in China


But I have seen why american companies want to go there ; instead of here


A company I worked for had a sister company in CHina and I witnessed how those poor people were treated.

They have NO workman's comp, NO osha regulation;

basically nothing for the employee.

They had no heating or air conditioning in the area

So, during extreme temperatures; you guessed it....many got sick

If an employee is injured ; they don't get compensation; Good luck!! to them

THis is a system I am sure some in charge would love to see here....

This is why when I see employers becoming dictators

and requiring intrusive things to keep a job

I think back to these poor workers in China

I believe if we here in america don't stand up and stop these things

we will one day become like this




Then you will have to look to the root of the problem, the government and the people that make the cost of doing business so difficult in that business is forced overseas.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NavyDoc
Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join.


What's the "arraingement"? You used it twice, this must be a military term.


I have a means for redress of greivences.


What's a "greivence"?


Oh, for crying out loud. Are starting on typos now? C'mon, that is the last resort of those without an arguement.


Sorry, Sir, but "arraingement" is not a typo, especially repeated twice in a row. You just can't spell it, just like you can't spell the "arguement". So I won' have any "arguement" with you.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Artistic

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Artistic

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Oh, for Christ's sake. You really are reaching now. You messed up and now you are trying to parse words to keep yourself from looking silly.
and you just can't drop the bone, no matter how picked-over it is, can ya?
rather admit your error, you go down the road of personal attack.
'nuff said.

fascits love "control" more than anything else ... see any of your posts for examples.

when or if you can explain what disease vs virus has to do with the "topic of this thread", we'll continue. otherwise, get back on topic and drop the bone already.

No employer has the right to force any employee to be penetrated in such a manner, period.

as an assumed member of the Armed Services, you have never had the option to openly 'object' ... so, your opinion does not surprise me.

however, your choice to relinquish your own freedom does not follow to the civilian population.
that is the contract YOU signed, don't try to force it on everyone else.


Very well said.

And NO employer has the right to force this on a employee.

Those who like fascism ; need to spend some time in China

WORKING in CHina ; especially

This would "cure" them fast


You keep saying that, but it is obvious you have never spent any time in China yourself. Where is the government involvement, like it is in China? Where is the force? If someone does not like it, they can leave. This is what we call freedom.

Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join. In addition, since you obviously do not understand how the military in the US works, I have ceartain rights and obligations spelled out by law and I have a means for redress of greivences.

I laugh at your "personal attack" whining. What have you been doing to me all along but making it personal?

I have never lived in China


But I have seen why american companies want to go there ; instead of here


A company I worked for had a sister company in CHina and I witnessed how those poor people were treated.

They have NO workman's comp, NO osha regulation;

basically nothing for the employee.

They had no heating or air conditioning in the area

So, during extreme temperatures; you guessed it....many got sick

If an employee is injured ; they don't get compensation; Good luck!! to them

THis is a system I am sure some in charge would love to see here....

This is why when I see employers becoming dictators

and requiring intrusive things to keep a job

I think back to these poor workers in China

I believe if we here in america don't stand up and stop these things

we will one day become like this




Then you will have to look to the root of the problem, the government and the people that make the cost of doing business so difficult in that business is forced overseas.


By requiring employees to get a potentially harmful shot in order to keep their job
is something new

here in america

I believe companies want to see have far they can push the public

to eventually; becoming a dictatorship.

If we keep allowing a little more and a little more;

people will find themselves working in an environment much like that of China

The brave men and women who fought so hard against dictatorship in WW II would roll over in their graves



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 07:33 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by NavyDoc
Obvioulsy you don't understand teh armed services either. It is a voluntary arraingement and everything is spelled out quite clearly. If I did not like the arraingement, I was free not to join.


What's the "arraingement"? You used it twice, this must be a military term.


I have a means for redress of greivences.


What's a "greivence"?


Oh, for crying out loud. Are starting on typos now? C'mon, that is the last resort of those without an arguement.


Sorry, Sir, but "arraingement" is not a typo, especially repeated twice in a row. You just can't spell it, just like you can't spell the "arguement". So I won' have any "arguement" with you.

Well, my dear sir. Thank you for this enlightening contribution to the discussion at hand. We are all better for it, and look forward to future brilliant inputs and demonstrations of your eminence.




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