ALIENS & UFOS Discussion Policy Not Based On Evidence But On Hearsay

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posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 12:38 AM
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Originally posted by Imtor
reply to post by The Shrike
 


You have the right to doubt, exactly because of the 'hearsay' existing. But you should not exclude and be certain of non-existence, exactly because it's vague and secret and evidence and secrecy do NOT go together.

What's the matter with those naysayers? Can't they realize how something they have no evidence of can still exist? Again this example:


Hypthetical case: I have invented a secret weapon. No one knows it exists, some guy did know. Ok but this guy disappeared and all that reached public was some guy who knew of it but no one heard or saw pictures of that guy, yet alone of the weapon.

Skeptics or Pseudoskeptics would come and say: There is no such weapon, there is no evidence.

And the fact: The weapon stays where it is, with no one ever reaching it again.

So does this mean it doesn't exist? See? That's why it is correct to stay open minded for possibilities if not being certain of it.



We are not talking about claiming as facts things that are not proven, just ope-minded for any possibilities, is it SO HARD?? :/
edit on 25-11-2012 by Imtor because: (no reason given)


Ideally, all humans should be questioning entities, nothing should be taken at face value or because someone said so. An old saying: "Experience is the best teacher". I'm a questioning individual and what sells me is the evidence. If there's no evidence, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist. You cannot be the only person that knows something and expect everyone else to accept your say so because you'll be running into a wall of doubt. You have the evidence but only you know it exists, no one else does and for them whatever it is doesn't exist. Open mindness is not a factor. Direct experience!




posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 12:56 AM
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Where's the evidence for anything you consider fact? Honestly, where is it? Don't use books or anything said by others because you constantly say that proves nothing when others do it.

You once posted images of an alleged UFO sighting you had, yes? To you that was hard evidence, yet you'll turn around and quickly call others liars or fools if they post images of a UFO sighting they had. Why? Are you really soo full of yourself that you can't except anything else as real unless it comes directly from you?

This thread proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how full of yourself you really are. You can't stand the fact that people call you out on your obvious BS left and right, so you want the rules changed so you can do even more of what you constantly do already. That's clearly all this thread is about. More attention seeking from you by creating a thread you know will pull in the ones you constantly talk down to so you can get in the usual name calling. Then when they turn it around on you, you have the nerve to whine about it as if you're innocent of never doing it? Really?

Seriously? Admins/mods of ATS. You really can't see the true intention of every single thread he creates? Google around and look at how many forums and blogs this guy does this on. It's disturbing.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:06 AM
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Originally posted by xpoq47
reply to post by The Shrike
 


Well, since you’re claiming solid sightings, it might be helpful if you would elaborate, with drawings or detailed descriptions. At least some exterior features of a mysterious object allow somewhat informed conjecture about it.

Also, what alternative(s) to the ETH do you favor?

I have mentioned in more than one thread the possibility (albeit remote) that humans already in space during a catastrophe that knocked a more advanced human society back to the Stone Age 20,000 years or so ago may have survived and developed and, unable to help the survivors on Earth much, decided to only observe, while developing the ability to protect Earth from asteroid strikes and even a possible future alien invasion. Another theory that implicates humans is the notion of a secret society that uses technology based on the work of Nikola Tesla.


Since I have been a member of this forum for more years that are indicated near my avatar, I have listed my sightings in detail so I cannot repeat myself without catching some flaming. Let me just say tha since I've been a UFO enthusiast since 1958 my sightings are above average and the close sighting through binoculars of a domed "craft" left no doubt as to what I was seeing.

My alternative (one) to the ETH is probably more mind-blowing than accepting long-distance travelers. It is assumed by most that those mysterious aerial objects are craft and that they contain extraterrestrials. Just because they are in the air and do fantastic maneuvers doesn't necessarily mean they're craft. They're Uidentified! No one has seen anything emanate from one and I don't accept claims from anyone that says that they have seen "something" leave or enter such an object. These aerial objects could be craft and they could contain what we would term a being or they could be remote operated. Again, no one knows.

These objects have been seen flitting over the lunar surface and in space. But while that would mean that they are technically ET, humans use that term to indicate their belief that UFOs are not local but from far away and do not travel linearly to earth but use some kind of alleged wormhole or other exotic forms of travel. I have no way of verifying that so I cannot enter into a dispute about.

Since we have some real mysteries on earth and we know, scientifically, that there may be other dimensions yet to be discovered especially in optics and sound, perhaps it is easier to explain UFOs in terms of other as-yet undiscovered dimensions. Again, we don't know, our knowledge has not been advanced by anything except hard, laborious work. New discoveries are made regularly but we're still in the dark ages and we cannot make a huge leap in knowledge unless someone or something showed us the way. Doing so might help us evolve too fast as humans are war-mongerers and a "future civilization" that is monitoring us wouldn't want us to learn to rapidly and endanger the future which is why UFOs tend to ignore humans while "monitoring" us.

I don't think that anyone is using Tesla's creations to the end you describe. I haven't read of any buildings being brought down due to vibrations or high voltage. HAARP could be but I don't know enough about it. STS-48 could have been the result of Tesla knowledge but none of the above have been connected with secret societies.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by The Shrike
 


there are people that knew the world was flat, because there was no evidence to say otherwise, but alas evidence was uncovered, and what was once fact is now false. when we close are mind we hinder discovery. please stop trying to close peoples minds


No one knew the world was flat. The uneducated theorized only and the early Greek philosophers alluded to a spherical earth. So who is hindering discovery? Gullible believers who ignore evidence. By trying to show these gullible believers that the world is not as they perceive it a mind opening should occur. But ATS members fight it tooth and nail. So don't accuse me of trying to do what is already done.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:19 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 


Thank you for making it clear to me why I should stay away from this forum.
As much as I get a little irritated with the fanatics who believe they know all about extraterrestrials, I don't find them nearly as painful to deal with as the ones that make fun of those of us who had traumatic experiences.
People like you.

See, if the believers had the same experiences, it wouldn't be traumatic- aliens are a part of their world view, their concepts of reality.

Unfortunately, these things happen also to people who do not believe, and who normally laugh at the suggestion, so then it becomes traumatic because they cannot accept their own direct experience. Having others make fun of them accentuates the damage.

There are cases of people who made up stories, but those are the ones you are most likely to hear about.
I have had contact with many many people in private, who are normal people, with no interest in beliefs of ET life, who have had these experiences repeatedly, and they don't dare tell anyone.

I will probably pay seriously one day when a potential employer finds posts like this or something. But like people that have been victim of thigns liek rape, I feel like once in a while someone needs to speak out, partly to be supportive of the others.

I don't feel sorry for your desire to "have at 'em" - you can get through your day without poking and hurting people, even those if you consider them sick, crazy, delusional, or dishonest. It won't do anything to you to stay away from them.
edit on 26-11-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:22 AM
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Yes we as humans are prone to lie. And all humans do. There is no human being out there that has not lied in one form or another in their life; it's impossible not to forever. But I believe some people have solid experiences. I saw the only ufo I have ever seen in my life on April 12th, 1998. It happened so fast and unexpectedly that I had simply no time to grab a camera. In less then 2 seconds it flew over my old house and was gone. The news in my area did a piece that very night about how there were hundreds of reports of seeing this very fast ufo that same night in my area, as well as 5 other counties within a twenty minute time frame. I cannot give solid proof of what I saw via pictures or video. But I know 100% that I saw it, as it was no hallucination and is not a lie in any way. The other 3 people of my household saw it that same night as well as me. We even experienced lost time phenomenon - losing over an hour and 42 minutes in the span of a few scant seconds. Some sightings it just is not possible to provide "proof." Some circumstances make it impossible. I understand the part of disbelieving without evidence to show others - but that does not mean that all lie about these experiences.

It's why I keep an open mind to such stories of these things here. Who is to know if the person posting about it is lying? They could be speaking completely honestly.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by talklikeapirat
reply to post by The Shrike
 


Have you ever examined a substantial number or at least any of the cases in Karl12s' "Puerto Rico-series"? If not, it would seem you're more concerned with the 'gullible believers' then actually finding the truth. If you have, what do you think?


I am Puerto Rican. I've been following INEXPLICATA since it started in 1998. Puerto Rico is not the only country with what seems to be a high percentage of UFO activity. Some countries in South America claim they're being besieged by UFOs and strange creatures. Par for the course. Karl12's thread has 7 pages and I can't read them at the moment.

Gullibility is a normal human trait thanks to mental conditioning. Questioners are in the minority and are labeled skeptics. Once in a while you see a thread here started by some claiming they're skeptics but they really aren't, they're believers evidence by the way they communicate.

And what do you mean by "finding the truth"? What truth? About what? From whom? Who decides what is truth? Evidence is truth.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by nightmare_david
Where's the evidence for anything you consider fact? Honestly, where is it? Don't use books or anything said by others because you constantly say that proves nothing when others do it.

You once posted images of an alleged UFO sighting you had, yes? To you that was hard evidence, yet you'll turn around and quickly call others liars or fools if they post images of a UFO sighting they had. Why? Are you really soo full of yourself that you can't except anything else as real unless it comes directly from you?

This thread proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how full of yourself you really are. You can't stand the fact that people call you out on your obvious BS left and right, so you want the rules changed so you can do even more of what you constantly do already. That's clearly all this thread is about. More attention seeking from you by creating a thread you know will pull in the ones you constantly talk down to so you can get in the usual name calling. Then when they turn it around on you, you have the nerve to whine about it as if you're innocent of never doing it? Really?

Seriously? Admins/mods of ATS. You really can't see the true intention of every single thread he creates? Google around and look at how many forums and blogs this guy does this on. It's disturbing.


You are the kind of member I rail about. You are not a thinker. You strike out. You make comments that you cannot support. Here is an example: "...yet you'll turn around and quickly call others liars or fools if they post images of a UFO sighting they had." I challenge you to put your money where your big mouth is by quoting a source that supports your underlined comment. The rest of your reply is not worth my time. I'm waiting.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by Bluesma
reply to post by The Shrike
 


Thank you for making it clear to me why I should stay away from this forum.
As much as I get a little irritated with the fanatics who believe they know all about extraterrestrials, I don't find them nearly as painful to deal with as the ones that make fun of those of us who had traumatic experiences.
People like you.

See, if the believers had the same experiences, it wouldn't be traumatic- aliens are a part of their world view, their concepts of reality.

Unfortunately, these things happen also to people who do not believe, and who normally laugh at the suggestion, so then it becomes traumatic because they cannot accept their own direct experience. Having others make fun of them accentuates the damage.

There are cases of people who made up stories, but those are the ones you are most likely to hear about.
I have had contact with many many people in private, who are normal people, with no interest in beliefs of ET life, who have had these experiences repeatedly, and they don't dare tell anyone.

I will probably pay seriously one day when a potential employer finds posts like this or something. But like people that have been victim of thigns liek rape, I feel like once in a while someone needs to speak out, partly to be supportive of the others.

I don't feel sorry for your desire to "have at 'em" - you can get through your day without poking and hurting people, even those if you consider them sick, crazy, delusional, or dishonest. It won't do anything to you to stay away from them.
edit on 26-11-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)


Instead of wasting your time replying to my thread, why don't you simply start a thread outlining your experiences and provide evidence to take it out of the hearsay category 'cause until you can provide evidence it will always be hearsay. I'm not interested in tales, there's a billion of them. Heck, even Strieber made them sound interesting in his novels and they are novels 'cause he also never provided evidence. But, hey, he IS an author!



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by Rubicant13
Yes we as humans are prone to lie. And all humans do. There is no human being out there that has not lied in one form or another in their life; it's impossible not to forever. But I believe some people have solid experiences. I saw the only ufo I have ever seen in my life on April 12th, 1998. It happened so fast and unexpectedly that I had simply no time to grab a camera. In less then 2 seconds it flew over my old house and was gone. The news in my area did a piece that very night about how there were hundreds of reports of seeing this very fast ufo that same night in my area, as well as 5 other counties within a twenty minute time frame. I cannot give solid proof of what I saw via pictures or video. But I know 100% that I saw it, as it was no hallucination and is not a lie in any way. The other 3 people of my household saw it that same night as well as me. We even experienced lost time phenomenon - losing over an hour and 42 minutes in the span of a few scant seconds. Some sightings it just is not possible to provide "proof." Some circumstances make it impossible. I understand the part of disbelieving without evidence to show others - but that does not mean that all lie about these experiences.

It's why I keep an open mind to such stories of these things here. Who is to know if the person posting about it is lying? They could be speaking completely honestly.


You misunderstood my thread's topic. It's not really about UFOs and I didn't criticize UFO reports. I can't. This thread is about the hearsay involved in alien reports. I said I don't buy them because no one has ever produced evidence for their reality. Before there were UFOs people were reporting strange sights in the sky. But now we have "real" UFOs that people think are extraterrestrial from another galaxy and that these UFOs contain beings. I challenge that last one.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 01:53 AM
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Originally posted by The Shrike



Instead of wasting your time replying to my thread, why don't you simply start a thread outlining your experiences and provide evidence to take it out of the hearsay category 'cause until you can provide evidence it will always be hearsay. I'm not interested in tales, there's a billion of them. Heck, even Strieber made them sound interesting in his novels and they are novels 'cause he also never provided evidence. But, hey, he IS an author!


I am not interested in convincing you or anyone else.
If you say you were molested as a child by your priest, it doesn't much matter whether I believe you or not, I am still going to choose NOT to insult and make fun of you. I just have no personal investment in taking the risk that it might be true, and I might be pouring salt into wounds.
It is a matter of humanity, class, and tact.

WHY do you feel the need to do that? What is your inner conflict you are projecting upon these cases???
editted to add;

Okay, I see it now. I read more carefully your responses to others here.
You are someone with experiences of yoru own, and for some reason feel that it is important people believe you. Maybe it will make your experiences "valid" and more easily digested?
Or maybe, judging on your comments about people like Strieber and Walton (who got money and fame off their stories) you are jealous ??

Whatever your reasons and motivations, they are yours, and I have no judgment to make of them.
My only concern in this thread, where you question the reason behind the rules here of acting tactful and respectful, is to express that those rules are important for the people here who are NOT interested in finding outside validation, nor competing with others, and have sensitive traumas to wrestle with.

I am not talking about those who spotted domed flying saucers. There are some that were taking against their wills, watched their children taken forcefully out of their arms, watched their spouses cry and fight helplessly.
Whether that was a terrible mass hallucination of not, they certainly don't need people like you making cruel mockeries at them. That won't help them heal or move on.
(because some people want to do that, not glorify the experience ...)
edit on 26-11-2012 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by nightmare_david
 



Seriously? Admins/mods of ATS. You really can't see the true intention of every single thread he creates? Google around and look at how many forums and blogs this guy does this on. It's disturbing.


The point I was trying to make is that everyone is welcome to post threads in this forum as long as they are generally polite and aren't attempting to attack or deceive the other members.

Extreme-skeptics are as welcome as extreme-believers although the rest of us take a more balanced approach.

reply to post by The Shrike
 



I don't see you nor any other Mods getting involved when your beloved believers think it's alright to fling hatred, insults, and disrespect on those that do not agree with their distorted beliefs.

Please read the above comments - it is not about favouritism; it is about expressing your views without hostility. For example, read my post to you and compare it with yours to me? I attacked your *argument* and, in return, you've attacked half a dozen targets including me. Is that the fault of ATS or should you be looking a little closer to home?

All the best, I generally enjoy reading your posts.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 




There are truckloads of evidence in the form of physical, chemical, trace evidence, scientific data and radar readings. There are many untampered with, irrefutable photographs. There are hundreds of encounters that are not considered hear say when multiple credible witness describe the same event. Corroborating evidence as well as expert witness testimony has also been introduced in more cases than I have time to mention. Your basic premise is inaccurate which voids this particular argument and thread, which isn't really an argument, but an opinion. It is simply denial without proof or evidence to support it.

edit on 26-11-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 02:48 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 





And what do you mean by "finding the truth"? What truth? About what? From whom? Who decides what is truth? Evidence is truth.



Again...sadly a false premise. There can be truth without evidence. Because you do not know something does not negate it's relative truth. The truth is WHAT IS - "and evidence" would be comprised of the tangible, verbal and historic details we have to support it's (what ever particular truth you are discussing) existence.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 03:45 AM
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reply to post by The Shrike
 





No one knew the world was flat


No one knows if the government and/or other government funded agencys are completely innocent of covering up info for there own benefit. can you provide solid proof that the government and connected agencys are 100% transparent, and are always 100 percent honest in there statements and actions? please enlighten me. if you cant than the possibility for goverment cover ups are real, therefore must be taken into consideration when discussing anything the goverment is involved in. but im sure you already know all this, you work/worked for the gov, right?



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by IamAbeliever
reply to post by The Shrike
 





All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation. No one has ever produced solid evidence of an encounter. In fact, those that have claimed encounters have usually done so to make a buck off the gullible.


Sounds to me like you're describing religion and every television evangelist that has ever lived.

Just sayin'.
edit on 25-11-2012 by IamAbeliever because: (no reason given)


Ah, that old chestnut, often used on this forum, but never in a real context. Religion is faith based - if you have proof then there would be no need for faith and therefore no religion. You may not like that, and it seems hard for some people to grasp, but that's the case. Stating a belief that there is high probability of lifeon other planets is a great theory, and most on here would be open to that. Stating that you regularly receive visitations from Extra Terristrials without any supporting evidence is a different matter entirely.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by The Shrike
 


there are people that knew the world was flat, because there was no evidence to say otherwise, but alas evidence was uncovered, and what was once fact is now false. when we close are mind we hinder discovery. please stop trying to close peoples minds


That unfortunately is not really a good example. It was never a commonly held opinion that the Earth is flat, that is a fallacy introduced 2 or three hundred years ago and still considered the case in the early 20th Century for reasons I can't begin to comprehend apart from someone just being very condescening about the intelligence and capability of past generations............. strange how much such opinion resonates on ATS


Anyway...

en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 26-11-2012 by something wicked because: whoops, missed out half a sentence



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by The Shrike
 




There are truckloads of evidence in the form of physical, chemical, trace evidence, scientific data and radar readings. There are many untampered with, irrefutable photographs. There are hundreds of encounters that are not considered hear say when multiple credible witness describe the same event. Corroborating evidence as well as expert witness testimony has also been introduced in more cases than I have time to mention. Your basic premise is inaccurate which voids this particular argument and thread, which isn't really an argument, but an opinion. It is simply denial without proof or evidence to support it.

edit on 26-11-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)


Ah, newcovenant, you beat me to it. Of course there is lots of solid, physical evidence outside 'hearsay', but Im sure The Shrike a) wont accept that and b) will call us all zombified UFO cult 'believers' for daring to bring it up.

I really worry about your health, Shrike, and Im being totally serious here. Only last week you started a thread claiming to "finally put Roswell to bed", and in it, similar to this one, you railed against UFO 'believers', claimed there was 'no evidence' other than hearsay, told us we were all deranged for falling for the 'hacks' trying to make a quick buck, and when anyone disagreed with you, you came back with insults and genuinely incoherant ramblings, finally leaving the thread when you realised your position.

Now here you are a week later, and you have another problem- "There are no reliable "historic and contemporary events" related to "extraterrestrial encounters". All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation." you proclaim- well Im sorry, but that is an assumption in itself, and if you had done your homework, you would know it is an incorrect one.

Why are you doing this? If you object so much to the UFO forum then, heres an idea, dont come here? Or is it that you like the attention, or you are by nature argumentative and enjoy playing 'devils advocate'?

Just as a start for your research (which Im sure you will be doing, in order to qualify your sweeping statements), can I direct you to the Colares UFO flap, investigated by, amongst others, the Brazilian Air Force, containing many physical traces, photographs, sightings by the Air Force research team- there are many, many more examples, but this one should give you enough information so you can see it isnt just all 'hearsay' as you claim.

I await your flaming your response.......



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 10:25 AM
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reply to post by Thunda
 


And along with photographic evidence I forgot to mention film footage. The OP re-introduces this same exact thread in as many different forms as possible on a fairly regular basis which seems to correspond with nothing more than a desperate need for attention.



posted on Nov, 26 2012 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
reply to post by The Shrike
 





All that exist are unprobable hearsay, assumptions and speculation. No one has ever produced solid evidence of an encounter. In fact, those that have claimed encounters have usually done so to make a buck off the gullible.


Sounds to me like you're describing religion and every television evangelist that has ever lived.

Just sayin'.
edit on 25-11-2012 by IamAbeliever because: (no reason given)


Ah, that old chestnut, often used on this forum, but never in a real context. Religion is faith based - if you have proof then there would be no need for faith and therefore no religion. You may not like that, and it seems hard for some people to grasp, but that's the case. Stating a belief that there is high probability of lifeon other planets is a great theory, and most on here would be open to that. Stating that you regularly receive visitations from Extra Terristrials without any supporting evidence is a different matter entirely.




LOL Right! This would be like if there were photographs, of Christ and he kept "returning" and it was repeatedly caught on film and witnessed by millions alive today to tell about it. Not exactly a parallel comparison.





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