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Why don't you believe? (@Non-Believers and Skeptics)

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posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:18 PM
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reply to post by randomtangentsrme
 


The entire point of the thread is calling out the skeptics and non believers.. so we can understand what it is about reality that they DONT believe.

We already know how crazy people are who DO believe. This thread IS NOT ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE. Clearly read the title and the OP to understand this




posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:18 PM
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While I'm a believer in UFOs and alien visitation, I will say that I do not believe in other dimensions (in the sense of alternate realities, parallel universes, or a "multiverse") especially as an explanation for these things. I think the "other dimension" explanation is a poor excuse, and just seems to be explaining one unknown with another. As Arthur C. Clarke's third law goes: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Just because something disappears or reappears doesn't mean it's phasing in and out of other dimensions.

I can't say I'm entirely convinced that other dimensions as such do not exist, but I feel like it's unlikely, and completely unnecessary for explaining other phenomena.

As for as psychologically why I believe this, I'd say it's because I'm a nuts and bolts kind of person. Dimensional travel just seems too much like science fiction and magic.

That said, I was a non-believer of the subject of UFOs and aliens as well, until I actually confronted myself with the data and the evidence. And I mean actual data and actual evidence, not the stuff that floats around ATS.
Also, anyone who is expecting video or photographs of UFOs as "proof" is kidding themselves. The proof already exists for UFOs, the question now is only whether they're extraterrestrial or something else.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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That's quite a broad-brush you're painting with there. You go all the way from aliens to multi-dimensions in the same paragraph. It might be helpful to narrow your aim there rather than include the entire universe of possibilities in one rant. Let's just take one small aspect of this to use as an example. Look what skeptics and "non-believers" are being asked to believe and see if you can figure out why they are reluctant to do so.

* Billy Meier not only took pictures of alien beam ships, he also traveled back in time to see dinosaurs and is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. But his Peleadian girlfriend, Semjase, turns out to have been a guest on the Donna Reed show and his dinosaur pictures was lifted from a contemporary book, Meier's picture of a ray gun is actually a toy model you can get on e-Bay

* Dr. Jonathan Reed captured an alien and put it in a refrigerator. His picture of an alien craft is a toy model.

* Truman Bethurum met a UFO captain named Aura Rhanes, a cute Latin-looking woman who wore a beret at a jaunty angle. She was from the planet Clarion, which is on the other side of the moon so we can't see it.

* Steven Greer "vectors in" UFOs all the time on his camping trips, which cost hundreds of dollars to join. The UFOs land right in front of you as buzzers from various "detectors" go off. Only problem is that they are invisible. His web site once had a picture of a common woodland moth as an "alien light being."

This is but a drop in the bucket of what you might call “UFO Fraud,” out and out charlatanism regarding the phenomenon. There’s a lot of it, some of it told very convincingly, that you must get through on your way to believing. Take a look at ufowatchdog.com. It’s old and outdated, but it gives you an example of the depth and breadth of the fraud we are all facing. There are hundreds of intentional fakes and frauds out there, no question. They’ve been caught red-handed.

Add to that the thousands of UFO encounters that turn out to be diving seagulls, reflection of interior lights, street lamps, aircraft both known and unknown, planets such as Venus, lanterns, car lights on the next hill over (Thanks, Roxanne!), meteors, and completely natural phenomena. These are not reported by people who are being intentionally deceptive. They are just mistaken.

But many are insistent. They can’t believe they were mistaken. I remember years ago seeing a “UFO” in a picture I thought was damned good. It defied explanation until someone here pointed out it was a diving seagull. It helped that the picture was taken at the seashore, but he pointed out the eyes, the tail, the wings, all in the perfect shape of a flying disk. And I said, “Oh, crap. fooled again.”

The next time it happened years later I took one look at the pic and said, “That’s a diving bird.” The perpetrator of the pic insisted it was a UFO, to the point of calling me names as a dreaded skeptic who refused to believe, kind of like you are doing in your rant, OP, except this was specifically directed at me, personally. This guy did not have the experience of a diving bird before, so his mind refused to interpret it that way. I had, and so because of that experience I was able to identify it as a non-UFO. You don’t need to invoke the term UFO if you don’t have to.

Now what about all the rational people who have seen things? What about them? I agree. Pilots, police officers, people with reputations to lose have encountered unidentified phenomena. They certainly remain unidentified, but we also have to weigh those kinds of encounters against other explanations.

The first legitimate question is: Why do you insist they are aliens? Surely you do not know that for a fact. Despite some truly irrational cries from certain quarters, “UFO” does NOT MEAN “alien craft.” There’s an extremely good chance unexplained UFOs are from here. In fact, we KNOW that to have been an absolute fact in the past. The SR-71 Blackbird was seen and called a UFO many times by ground and airborne observers, an explanation the US Air Force thought was just fine. Secret aircraft are naturally seen as UFOs. Our ubiquitous triangles are another example. It’s an open secret.

Now let’s take this a step further. I do not know ANYONE who does not acknowledge the idea that somewhere in the universe, perhaps many places in the universe, there exists what we would call alien life. Nobody. So where are all these people you claim exist? What are their names? Aren’t you making a grand generalization that you accuse others of making?

And just for the record, where do you get your information? How do you know what aliens would think? Have you ever been on one of these starships? Ever spoken to an alien? WHERE, precisely, are these extra dimensions you want us to believe in? All you have are your own beliefs, with nothing to back them up. When you can tell us where Clarion is, write back.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by LoveisanArt
 

First off, let me state that I HAVE experienced unexplainable aerial phenomena. Twice, I have seen flying craft whose movements could not be explained by conventional explanations. Airplanes, jets, rockets, satellites, meteors, etc. But that does not make them alien in origin. It just puts them outside of conventional explanation.

Secondly, I spent a good portion of my life as a devout believer in a cult. While I see the value of intuition in my life, I have learned not to live by my beliefs and feelings. Evidence is important to me. I won't be a member of another cult. Especially a UFO cult.

As to the rest of your post, it is subjective. And that's OK. I'm a very openminded kind of person. I'm willing to consider things most won't touch. But considering something, and buying into it are two different things.

You ask why I'm not a believer? The same reason I'm not a disbeliever. There are other explanations to what I have witnessed, read, and viewed in images and video. Yet I don't rule out your explanation either.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by spacedoubt
 


This. I believe that there was a time that ufology could have evolved into a legitimate scientific field of research. However the second aliens became the de facto answer for any anomalous object in the sky and anyone who believed differently became a shill/disinfo agent/ignorant/etc the possibility of this ever happening disappeared.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by LoveisanArt
Im interested in experience. If anyone who hasnt experienced this; how can you say it does not exist?
Sceptics don't say that.


The extraterrestrials know this; operating at a MUCH higher level then the average hu-man.
How do you know that? And why do you write "hu-man" instead of "human"?


This is why they will not show themselves.. this is why you dont SEE them. They are smarter then you, more sophisticated. You havent experienced perception off your planet, you cannot comprehend until you use your mind and experience such things.
Do you see them?


Our minds are raided on a daily basis, we do not live in a reality where our minds are free thinking, clear and used to its potential.
Once more, stop speaking by all humans (the right spelling
), you can only speak for yourself.
edit on 24/11/2012 by ArMaP because: to add the "this is my opinion" thingy

extra DIV



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by LoveisanArt
The first posts I recieve of "skeptics" is full of "I have not seen". This is exactly what I said in the OP. I didnt ask for sarcasm or anything, quite frankly you all went off topic..

WHY dont you belive. Just because you havent seen? Or something in your mind or consciousness that believes its impossible for it to exist?
Your individual Life, your personality; what is it that makes you think the life you are living doesnt involve other realms or beings?
The topic isnt about lack of evidence; its about you personally, what you feel about this aspect of reality.




How do you prove a negative? Isn't the burden of proof on those claiming such stuff? Nice try OP to flip the concept, but to me, an epic fail.

No, imo people haven't gone off topic. You asked why people are skeptical and they have answered you the best way they can.
But to try and add to your topic. I used to be very optimistic re say, extraterrestial beings, but then I started to think.


Look at the huge number of co-incidences for life to get started then reach a level of thought and reasoning here on earth. a few points, hopefully others may ad to this.

Glodilocks zone ( I know this is expanding all the time but it is still a factor)?

The fact that to get the moon there was a massive collision that ended up forming our moon at just the right distance and size as to slowly move away from the earth to let the spin of the earth stabilise and the tides occur?

Then the tides themselves to bring about (what's it called ? ) circadian rhythm ?,

The need for such beings to be able to travel across vast distances of space in a life time seems to suggest they would have to spend generations in space just to get here ?

The idea that the speed of light has been broken ?

The idea that these beings are existing at the same time as we are ?



Each of the probabilities here are so very small and when (not added but ) multiplied together, imo, they are possibly getting close to the number of stars in the known universe.

At one point, "logic" told me that there "must" be others "out there" but as time goes on, I have changed this view to one of skepticism

But please OP show me the error of my ways. In all sincerity, that would be great.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by yourmaker
Aliens are real because we are real.

the distance of space travel combined with the likelihood of technological prowess while maintaining a moral society is just too much relative to our own species..

sure we can send a robot to mars but that is no where near the same capability as moving a few people there.
add in the distances between stars and it's laughable..



You have not experienced reality off the curvature of the Earth, you speak in a manner that feels when humanity was born the universe was born..

Alien beings who were operating like we are today, but eons and eons ago. HAve deffinately mastered space/time travel.

But you havent experienced this, so you dont understand it, so it cannot exist. Science cant travel to the Pleiades in a few hours, so its impossible... until science figures it out.. (which could take eons and eons).,

So debunking and skepticism is based on what we have experienced, what we know, what we have perceived.
Since you havent experienced ETs and space/time travel it cant be apart of reality, what we calll "Life"?

hmm.. yea mentality like that makes it easy to control an entire population



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by ArMaP
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by Klassified
For some, "skepticism" has become just as much of a religion as Christianity, or any other religion. Anything that goes against what they believe to be true, they will reject.

That's not scepticism, scepticism is not about rejecting things, is about doubting about their existence. That's why I can never really say that something does not exist, I can only really say that I find it likely or not to be real.
edit on 24/11/2012 by ArMaP because: to add the "this my opinion" thingy



Exactly ArMap. That is why I put the word skepticism in quotes. Because they aren't real skeptics. extra DIV



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by LoveisanArt
reply to post by randomtangentsrme
 


The entire point of the thread is calling out the skeptics and non believers.. so we can understand what it is about reality that they DONT believe.

We already know how crazy people are who DO believe. This thread IS NOT ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE. Clearly read the title and the OP to understand this


I believe in alien life.
What I am skeptical on is visitations, and for people who claim extraordinary knowledge without being able to provide a factual base for their knowledge.
So as a skeptic, enlighten me what is is about reality I don't believe. Again, please use more than just your own beliefs.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:34 PM
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Well you can put me in the extreme minority, on two occasions i witnessed unexplained phenomenon that i have tried to explain in previous threads and yet i refuse to believe there was any little green men involved.
You so called believers need to ask yourselves one thing, if television programing had not influencsd you so would you even believe?



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by LoveisanArt
 


Well I think you are lumping all sorts of groups all together here, even individuals... For instance some people MAY believe in ghosts but not aliens, for their own reasons... Some may believe nothing at all...

I believe there is life on other planets, I wouldn't even speculate on the advancement of this life, for all you know WE could be the most advanced...

I do not think aliens have visited... WHY do I think that? No not because I have not seen them with my own eyes! It is because there is no credible evidence! Plenty of hearsay from people that write books and attend seminars and such, but if someone is charging you HAVE to question their motives...

Everyone has cameras these days but STILL there is no conclusive proof!

I am looking for PROOF and I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to find some... Just haven't yet, until then I stay a skeptic. What other choice do you have? BELIEVE the words of others? Nah, that sounds a little like a religion to me!

So now I have answered you, please answer me... What is your very best piece of proof that convinced YOU?



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by LoveisanArt
reply to post by Klassified
 


It just came to me the moment I logged on actually XD

Im interested in experience. If anyone who hasnt experienced this; how can you say it does not exist?

Seeing = believing = truth? Are you really making that claim??? That rules out all forms of dulled senses, misperception, misinterpretation, intoxication, delusion, hallucination, and stupidity.

If seeing = believing = truth, then any two people who witness the same event would be guaranteed to interpret what they saw in the same way, and the video recording of the event would corroborate the witnesses accounts.

I've seen multiple UFOs. I still cannot explain most of them. Does that say more about the "reality" of ufos OR does it say more about my own perception and my ignorance?




The extraterrestrials know this; operating at a MUCH higher level then the average hu-man. This is why they will not show themselves.. this is why you dont SEE them. They are smarter then you, more sophisticated. You havent experienced perception off your planet, you cannot comprehend until you use your mind and experience such things.

The Hu-man being, and all beings for this matter; are VERY complex systems. Biologically, mentally, spiritually.. but we have forgotten our trueselves, this brought an unbalance to our understanding of reality and this entire experience we call Life.

Our minds are raided on a daily basis, we do not live in a reality where our minds are free thinking, clear and used to its potential. We cannot perceive reality as the ETs do. We experience/perceive reality on the surface curvature of the Earth... they are bending space and time, travelling the cosmos.

We do have more "senses" (awareneesses) which are not physically-receptive in nature. This is what we call today as "psychic". This is when one's 'third eye' is awake and active. This allows the individual to perceive past the 5 senses (Mind).
And maybe one of the biggest reasons we have difficulty accepting personal accounts from "experiencers", who have drawn unshakable conclusions about their experiences, based on no fact or reason, is because they come across as meaningless rants.
edit on 24-11-2012 by Tearman because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by Xcalibur254
 


I actually started a UFO club in Middle School, 7th grade.
We had about 20 members. We would read books, discuss the content.
This was when the Erich von Däniken "Gods" books were popular.
I think this might have classified me as geek, back then,

I also built a box to take Kirlian aura photographs. Using Polaroid instant film, and a tesla device. IT created high voltage, high frequency, low amperage power, and it worked as advertised. Meaning I could make a photo...I did a science project on this. MY conclusion was that the device didn't prove much. That it was hard to tie the physical condition of animate, and inanimate objects to the results of the camera. My biggest problem was my film budget. I needed to take thousands of photos, rather than dozens, I still have those photos..I think I posted them on ATS years ago..Maybe I should hunt those down.

So I do have the propensity to believe. The problem is that the evidence tends to be fuzzy...sometimes literally.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by ArMaP
 


Ill reply to you as you've put more energy into replying then anyone else.

Why I believe:

I have experienced things with the mind and heart that many people would not understand. The mind is a mysterious thing, we shape it as we go along in this short Hu-man experience.
The mind is obviously not physical.. but it provides us everyday - observing, thinking, awareness, control the body, dream, visualize.. this is %10 of our minds at use.

This is what you non believers, who are really just everyday people with an opinion, dont understand.. the human being, reality isnt just based on PHYSICAL matter. There is spiritual matter, existence, which can be perceived with the mind.

Your mind is like a funnel when used to its potential; the opening in the narrow tunnel is the mind connection to the human consciousness; but as the funnel (mind) widens, it enters deep within the mind. This is what I believe the true "GOD" is.

We are too busy looking outside of ourselves for answers, living everyday like the last, depending on science to evolve us because they've had a "kick start" in past century.

If you do not practise meditation or any type of mind exercises.. then your mind capabiliy and potential is shut down or "asleep" as we spiritual call it. You wont understand or experience because you dont want to go inside of yourself.

This is WHY you dont believe.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by LoveisanArt
 

Aren't you applying a personal belief system to describe someone else's methodology of sorting out truths, possible truths, and non-truths?

edit on 24-11-2012 by spacedoubt because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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There is much more evidence for Santa Claus than there is for ufo's, aliens and new age nonsense.

Many many people know what he looks like, where he lives, what he does, there are many pictures and photo's of him, we know what he drives, what powers it, what he eats and drinks. There is a lot of physical evidence for him.

On the other hand, there is no physical evidence for ufo's or aliens, no one can say what they actually look like, what powers their method of travel etc.

As to mind powers, there is no evidence of it, in fact all the evidence points to those who claim to have it are just fakes and frauds



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by LoveisanArt
 





The mind is obviously not physical.


What do you mean the mind is not physical? There is a TON of evidence to show that it is... Just take your brain out and see what happens to your mind... Even take a good crack on the head... People have been known to COMPLETELY change personality after a bad accident... Look at people with Alzheimers, when the brain gets old and degrades so does your MIND, funny that don't you think?




This is what you non believers, who are really just everyday people with an opinion, dont understand..


You are separating yourself from everyone else and kinda putting yourself on a pedestal when in fact YOU are no different! Just an everyday person with an opinion...




the human being, reality isnt just based on PHYSICAL matter. There is spiritual matter, existence, which can be perceived with the mind.


You NEED proof to make these statements... So do you have any or not? Do you know that people can take acid and see all kinds of things? Even without drugs people can see strange things but it doesn't make it real! Ever heard the term "the mind can play tricks on you"? That is because of the way the brain processes information...




Your mind is like a funnel when used to its potential; the opening in the narrow tunnel is the mind connection to the human consciousness; but as the funnel (mind) widens, it enters deep within the mind. This is what I believe the true "GOD" is.


Pretty "out there" opinions you have... Care to back any of them up?




We are too busy looking outside of ourselves for answers, living everyday like the last, depending on science to evolve us because they've had a "kick start" in past century.


Very few people truly live everyday like the last... If people did then I think the world would be even crazier than it is... No-one would bother to work for a start!





If you do not practise meditation or any type of mind exercises.. then your mind capabiliy and potential is shut down or "asleep" as we spiritual call it. You wont understand or experience because you dont want to go inside of yourself.


Oh I see, you are a "spiritual"... So basically what you are saying is you have created some fantasy in your mind/brain and then berate the rest of us "everyday people" for not going along with it too?




This is WHY you dont believe.


Ahhhhh, so you didn't really want to ASK us at all... You wanted to TELL us!


This is just too ridiculous, I'm out...



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by LoveisanArt
reply to post by ArMaP
 


Why I believe:

I have experienced things with the mind and heart that many people would not understand. ...


Maybe others understand the mind better than you and that is the reason that they don't believe.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by LoveisanArt
 


You're making a lot of thinly veiled judgmental accusations about others.

I'll assume you're interested in seeking the truth, not just trolling skeptics. Limiting the discussion to UFOs: as was pointed out to you earlier the subject is completely muddied with errors in perception and outright fraud. The overwhelming majority of UFO sightings have mundane explanations. In that regard skeptics and debunkers are allies in the pursuit of truth even for "believers" as they help to eliminate false data from consideration. In other words: denying ignorance.





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