Rifle-Toting Terrorists Called Major Threat to U.S. Power Grid

Originally posted by Patriotsrevenge
reply to post by Hijinx

 

The people who would act on that sort of thing doesn't really need to know how to do it, so stop telling them. This whole OP baffles me. Some times people just need to keep they're yap shut.

Many have known for a long time. However since it was reported in media it became something open for discussion.

Originally posted by VeniVidi
reply to post by Phoenix

 

IMO taking out the power grid, though harmful, does not create terror. I suspect that terrorist want to create destruction that can be seen and heard by those that the terror is created for. Knock out the power grid and you knock out the ability to create mass panic. I would recognize that I lost power in my area, but without TV, Radio, or the Internet I would not know about any other areas.

I disagree. I lived in south Florida during many hurricanes. Imagine the whole country without lights, access to ATMs, no gas, no refrigeration or internet. Cell phones would pass the news that other states were out of power as well. I would give it 6-8 hours before things started getting crazy. People freak out when their lights are out pass an hour.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge



Oh come on, can't you tell I'm the head of the counter-terrorist department? I have to make work for all our agents! TSA will only be able to get away with groping civilians for so long, and so far they only get borders and airports. One day, it's our dream to have them in the home of every American, you won't be able to get up and go to the fridge with out passing several check points and a body cavity search.

Perhaps it WASN'T such a good idea shutting down Tesla's wireless power grid :p

Originally posted by VeniVidi
reply to post by Phoenix

 

IMO taking out the power grid, though harmful, does not create terror. I suspect that terrorist want to create destruction that can be seen and heard by those that the terror is created for. Knock out the power grid and you knock out the ability to create mass panic. I would recognize that I lost power in my area, but without TV, Radio, or the Internet I would not know about any other areas.

Unless you used your phone, or had a radio...

There are different forms of terrorism, some is intended to create mass panic, and others are intended to be disruptive. What a lot of people don't consider is that a lot of services and security rely on the power grid. It might be true that many essential services have back ups, but they don't always work.

It's a very relevant thread OP. But, personally, I think the success of the Mumbai style attack makes those more plausible in the future.

There are many ways to do this. Mounted cross bow on the back of a pickup truck, arrow with attached length of light steel cable and shoot over the line. You do a great deal more damage by shorting the lines although blowing away substations is good too. Setting small timed charges would also work creating instant and wide ranging damage.

There are many, many more ways to take out a technocratic society. All of the equipment you need is out there in plain site. Terrorists building car bombs have no imagination. Stupid waste of time.

We are vulnerable and no, I am not going to mention them all. If the stupid Government wants to, then they have their reasons. Telling everyone how to is just dumb as, or of course, they want the upheaval. Probably the latter.

P

Someone has never worked with the big grid tie transformers or they would know the story is BS.

The main casing on them is 3/4 inch steel and they have internal temperature sensors that will trigger a shutdown of they overheat because of oil loss.

Due to actions of a group called Earth First (monkeywrenchers)the power companies started hardening there systems years ago and today most transmission towers are not bolted but fastened with giant pop rivets.
en.wikipedia.org...

There are ways to take down the grid that i will not go into here but many industrial electricians would know about.

Originally posted by ANNED
Someone has never worked with the big grid tie transformers or they would know the story is BS.

The main casing on them is 3/4 inch steel and they have internal temperature sensors that will trigger a shutdown of they overheat because of oil loss.

Due to actions of a group called Earth First (monkeywrenchers)the power companies started hardening there systems years ago and today most transmission towers are not bolted but fastened with giant pop rivets.
en.wikipedia.org...

There are ways to take down the grid that i will not go into here but many industrial electricians would know about.

If industrial electricians know how to do it then foreign countries who support terrorism know how to as well. Taking out towers is an easy solution with many ways to do it. Ok, they don't use bolts, fine, i'll take an angle grinder. It is not hard!

P

Originally posted by iwilliam
Terrorists getting a hold of a nuclear plant would be a real threat. But security for those is considerably more than a chain link fence. Especially post 9/11.

And guess where these nuclear power plants get their power?
From the grid. The nuclear plant may produce power, but the plant itself (especially the cooling mechanism) is powered by he grid.

And most nuclear power plants have only a 72 hour backup battery before the plant goes into melt down.

You shut down the power, you send the country back to the stone age

Originally posted by ANNED
Someone has never worked with the big grid tie transformers or they would know the story is BS.

The main casing on them is 3/4 inch steel and they have internal temperature sensors that will trigger a shutdown of they overheat because of oil loss.

Due to actions of a group called Earth First (monkeywrenchers)the power companies started hardening there systems years ago and today most transmission towers are not bolted but fastened with giant pop rivets.
en.wikipedia.org...

There are ways to take down the grid that i will not go into here but many industrial electricians would know about.

The 22 cal story is BS but using a heavy bore is a whole different thing.

Couldn't find 3/4 inch steel but this is a shot of 1/2 inch Steel being penetrated by a .308. Imagine what a 7mm or .50 cal would do. I have seen oil filled power circuit breakers launch 100 yards into the air when shorted. It is hard to say what would happen to a main transformer if it suddenly had that type of hydrostatic shock induced.

reply to post by whywhynot


Yeah, couple shots with my .308 or 30 06 would do some damage I think. Those got some power, they better, that is what I would be shooting an aggressive bear with, and what I take down moose with

Who needs rifles? Just a few big rigs, tractors, bulldozers, etc. hitting multiple locations simultaneously would do the job. The "terrorists" had no problem getting pilot's training, so what's the problem getting CDL's.

Seriously, anyone denying the horrific chaos of such an attack is either ignorant or in denial. Also, the ease of such an attack is undeniable.

Just more proof that the "terrorist threat" is a bunch of BS. There are no terrorists with intentions against the US. If there were, this would have happened long ago. To think otherwise is pure ignorance.

reply to post by ANNED


Seen a lot about transmission lines and towers and agree messing with them would cause disruption and maybe even ground load issues back at some plants but in the main this type damage is repairable within relatively short time periods.

The OP is about loss of long leadtime transformers used to step up voltage on transmission system.

Originally posted by Phoenix
Probably the biggest thing here is the fact that these transformers have a long leadtime to build - if this was to occur power would be down for a long, long time in most areas.

Think like 1, 2 or even more years, maybe forever if people react as I think they would.

The current back order is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 years I think, maybe some of us should go into the transformer manufacturing business

reply to post by Phoenix


What this shows is the supposed terrorist threat to the US is a hoax to control the people. if it were real they would have taken out the power grid years ago it is so easy and simple! Enough could have crossed the southern border too take out the entire grid and send us back to the 19th century...

reply to post by hawkiye


You also might consider that much of the US infrastructure is very old and way past it's use by date.

Try this google search www.google.com.au...=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=US+infrastructure+collapse+due+to+age&oq=US+infrastructure+collapse+due+to+age&gs_l=hp.12...270 54.34710.4.40465.21.21.0.0.0.0.667.6485.1j0j11j7j1j1.21.0.les%3B..1.0...1c.1.-DJ6zFUy9T8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=1bf8971734a1165e&bpcl=38 897761&biw=1036&bih=526

The problem is that private companies do not want to spend on renewing the infrastructure when they can take the money and run. What you then need is a terrorist attack that destroys much of the infrastructure so everyone can claim insurance. The Government can then claim that the attack broke the bank and that's why everything fell in a collapsed heap.

Always be ready to shift the blame.

P

reply to post by Phoenix


Taking out the power grid would be harder than you think.

They may be able to get small town power grids, for a little while at least, until they know they are going after the power grid.

However, taking out the power any where significant is going to be difficult. They would have to pull a Sam Fisher.

----

Now, i know for a fact we have agents who are trained to disrupt infrastructure. Power Grids, roads, communications, and ect. So if we have agents made specifically for eliminating hostile power Grids (without launching missiles) i am sure other countries do too.

China and Russia could probably disrupt some infrastructure for a time, however, you dont go active and expect not to get caught. These means would be outside Terrorist possibilities unless they are recieving tech, funding, and training from a high tech nation.

If you read between the lines whats being suggested is how vulnerable the grid is to a malitia attack.

reply to post by milkyway12


Again, it is a lot easier than you seem to think to knock out the Grid.

If you hit the right HV lines at the right time, this will effect the load balancing on the network to a point the frequency goes out of whack and the whole thing collapses in on itself.

Do this at peak time when there is a lot of energy in the Grid and no where for it to safely go and "boom" go your transformers and, if you're really unlucky, the generators in the power plants take a whack too, all of which take months to repair.

To give you an example of the lead times here in the UK, I know the National Grid have had faulty transformers in several major substations for years.

So dangerous were these transformers that anyone entering one of the sites had to be in possession (or be with someone who has) of an IR camera to detect hotspots in the equipment which would indicate if one was about to pop.

It took nearly 3 years to source the parts and effect a repair, even when there was a serious risk to life, let alone the stability of the power supply.

Then there is the telemetry they use to control the Grid (much the same I presume as any other developed nation). They used to have each station manned so any switching could be done manually to control the flow. It is now all done remotely to save costs and all those chaps who sat in the substations were made redundant. Now, in the UK at least, these telemetry circuits are built over an overhead fibre network carried on the HV pylons themselves. Bring down the right pylons, at the right time and you not only disrupt the flow of power, but also the managing agencies ability to react and mitigate any damage......

But, as I've said about terrorists before, they always seem to want to go for a high-profile/high casualty target without thinking sensibly or strategically. If they really wanted to, or if they had the strategic wherewithal, they could have brought us to our knees with much less effort than 9/11 or 7/7.

But, we're lucky they are as inept as a bunch of school kids and epically fail in most of their plots after spending years "planning". Give me a few thousand £'s and an afternoon and I can show you "terrorism" and MI5 wouldn't have a clue.... These Islamic chaps are the worlds most inept and should have a TV program dedicated to how rubbish they are their "job", like the "worlds dumbest criminals" show.

Why do people come up with stupid ideas! Its far more likely that a solor flair blows down the grid then a few people with guns!
We should have a holiday, a day without elect power once a year. See a stupid idea, only we could use this and change somethings around some. The whole world turns it off for a day, maybe 2 days; just how long would it take to shut everything down and turn it on again?
Thats something we should know really, not here and there, like an EMP all over and see how long it WOULD take to fix it! Say a blast from the Sun comes along and does just this, since this is possible do we have a plan? Is there a backup system?
Should concider this, since some crazy person could take it down how would we bring it back up with no power?