The "Rainbow Warrior"

Originally posted by craigandrew
Your showing your ignorance again Ed.

Australia didnt ban Nuke visits and you do some of your major regional ops training here with us.

NZ had every right as a nation to ban nuclear ships or not to accept your right not to confirm or deny, just as the USA had every right to downgrade thier status in response (even if it put Australia in an embarrassing position).

Nobody likes nukes, even guys like me who believed in cold war deterence.

For a long time US carrriers were NOT allowed to port there, becuase the US Navy would not admitt whether Nucs were or were not on board. They had to boat in. PORTS not offshore....

That might have changed since we no longer carry nucs on board carriers anymore?? Then why the Marines?

Still wrong Ed. I live in Australia. I grew up in Perth. Port of Fremantle was the R&R capital for USN Sailors and Marines bound East and West right through the 1980s until today. USN crews do crew rotations there nowdays, and until I quit driving cabs in Brisbane in April, Yank sailors tipped nicely thank you very much.

If you like I could take the next two weeks to scan you hundreds of pictures of USN Carrier and Battlegroups on port visits and excerises in Aussie waters since the 1980s.....Sydney, Fremantle, Brisbane. The only thing stopping any US ship docking anywhere in Australia is thier size and draught and thats it.

USN has been a welcome guest in Australia since Teddy Roosevelts "Great White Fleet" was invited to make a port call by our PM in 1907.

I suggest you try asking some of your sailors and marines about it.

BTW...those horrible Kiwis?......they have nearly 100 personnel serving in the region alongside your boys, including thier SAS in Afghanistan. Even Aus doesnt officially have any SF working with you at the moment.

Better Luck Next Time.

You miss my point.

Austrailia and New Zealand are Nuclear free zones.

The carriers had to park OFFSHORE, no port calls. They ride aboard boats to get in, hell yes they port there, just the carriers have to stay offshore as long as they have nucs. on board, which the Navy would not admitt.

Now it could have changed but that is the way it was.

Still wrong Ed.......How many times do I have to say it. I am third generation Perth born and never in my lifetime have USN ships been banned from port calls IN AUSTRALIA. Likewise we have had a form of "dont ask dont tell" with visiting French and UK Vessels.

Unless I dreamed the 1980s and my photo albums of deck tours on ships like the USS Midway and HMS Ark Royal, Illustrious and Invincible are faked.

You may be getting confused with local green councils declaring thier councils "Nuclear Free" I understand some of the American councils at one time did the same. Don't know about US but here the effect was purely figurative not literal.

If a ship couldnt tie up to a dock it was only because it was too big to fit or due to a lack of deep berths.

In Fremantle for instance, your CVNs had to anchor in the anchorage on Gage Roads because they were too big come up the river enterance into the port. Unless they have worked out a way, the only the smaller Midway and 60s vintage CVs could physically dock. And our navy and commercial ferry operators would work thier arses of shuttling the crews ashore.

It had nothing to do with any non existent nuclear bans.

Are we clear on that?

Well I guess so, maybe I had it confused?? NO I was plain full of #. It was New Zealand in which I was thinking.

You have my humblest of apologies.......




NEW ZEALAND
In July of 1984, New Zealand voters elected the Labour Party to national office. One of the platforms upon which the Labour Party conducted the election was that, if elected, nuclear-powered ships, or ships carrying nuclear weapons, of any country would not he allowed to dock at New Zealand ports.

In early February, this led Prime Minister David Lange to deny the US to dock the USS Buchanan. Although this action does not violate ANZUS--the Australia, New Zealand, US defense pact it has brought an angry reaction from the United States.

The US has announced no official economic sanctions against New Zealand in reprisal, but Del Higie, an administrator in the New Zealand consulate in Ottawa, believes that blockage of the USS Buchanan may lead the US Congress to be more reluctant in supporting the passage of bills that favour New Zealand.
www.peacemagazine.org...



ANZUS Pact
Security pact for the South Pacific, signed in 1951 by Australia, New Zealand, and the U.S. (hence its acronym).

officially Pacific Security Treaty The U.S. first suggested a pact to Australia in the wake of the U.S.-Japan Security Treaty and fears of Japanese rearmament. The signatories agreed to maintain a consultative relationship for their collective security. In the 1980s New Zealand refused to let ships carrying nuclear weapons dock at its ports; the U.S., refusing to identify its nuclear-armed ships, suspended its treaty obligations to New Zealand in 1986, and the treaty has since been nonoperative with reference to New Zealand.
www.britannica.com...

Yup...its us Kiwis that have the No Nukes Policy and keep you guys as far away from us as possible...perhaps theres more to it than just the nuclear issue...

As for the attack on the Rainbow Warrior...deplorable...its our only act of International Terrorism in this country...and from a supposedly 'Friendly Nation'. Despite what I may personally think about Greenpeace...this was an act of terrorism, that resulted in death...IN OUR WATERS.

Originally posted by edsinger
The death was NOT planned, the Greenpeace organization are now no more than Enviroterrorists. They consider the life of a human less that that of an animal. I feel that is backwards.

I feel you have no freaking clue what Greenpeace goals and objectives are, and by sharing your twisted version of the truth you are only spreading ignorance.
Stop it.

As for calling greenpeace nature nazis, that has to be the dumbest thing I heard in a long long time.
Greenpeace sometimes refrains from using the legal ways, because the legal ways do not work one bit against all those multinational corporations.
Greenpeace is honestly one of the best environmental organisations in this world. Don't target them with your lies and ignorance. The people who screw this earth and the life on it up really do not need your help.

Alien......so how is Godzone this morning???

I don't know how old you are, but were you around when the Rainbow Warrior was sunk?. I was thinking mabe you could give us some idea of the public opinion at the time. I would have thought that the story would have dominated all of NZ's news medias?

Was there much of a public display "backlash" against the French?

billy i have to agree with you on the greenpeace issue, i was never a real follower...and those multinational companies are more than f#@king up the world...i support those guys, because yea the means to do it legally are not on there side...i am american and damn i am disgrace at the fact that americans are the largest mass consumers.

have a read of this billy might change your whole perspective about what is happening in this world...my day is not going to get better...I AM FREAKING OVER HERE
www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net...

i like you billy...dont know you, but like your attitude...now we only have to convince the rest of the world...lol

Spaceghost.......thanks for the vote of confidence brother!. Nice to know that I have made a good impression.

When you state that you are over here....I take it to mean that you are in the same part of the world as I am????

Stay safe

BillyTheCat

Originally posted by BillyTheCat
Alien......so how is Godzone this morning???

I don't know how old you are, but were you around when the Rainbow Warrior was sunk?. I was thinking mabe you could give us some idea of the public opinion at the time. I would have thought that the story would have dominated all of NZ's news medias?

Was there much of a public display "backlash" against the French?

Godzone...well, Wellington anyway, has been quite pleasant today...for a change

I'm 32 years old, so was only a young teen in '85 when the Rainbow Warrior was struck. At the time there was indeed a fair amount of public outcry in regards to the attack, and a call for justice. When it was fully discovered who carried out the attacks, the public perception of the French was certainly not good by any means.

At the time NZ culture had a growing 'No Nukes/Anti-Nuke' movement happening...from 'famous figures' speaking out against French Testing in the pacific as well as a number of popular bands releasing 'protest' music/songs addressing the issue of French Testing. So...as you can imagine...already there was some animosity there for the French and their 'dirtying' of our beautiful pacific region with their bomb testing. The attack upon the Rainbow Warrior, within our own country, and the resulting death of an 'innocent' certainly prompted a loud and long decry of the French.

There was also an outcry when the two French SS-Agents were moved from OUR custody..after a fat payout of what was seen by many to simply be blood-money...back to French 'custody' and a release following soon after. Many I spoke with, and from much of the media reports/interviews I read/heard at the time saw the Govts move as 'selling out', or being brought off...not pleasant at all.


Peace,
ALIEN

You know, I wonder if the RW affair had any thing to do with "Isolationist - Kinda" attitude in NZ? (no offense Kiwis)

The digging in of the heels on the nuke ship ban,
The scrapping the combat air wing element of the RNZAF ("get the Ozzi whinger Doris!" - "Baahhh" crunch)

That sort of thing.

Cheers.

Oh- BTW thumbs up NZ on the two support ships and four armed OPV orders by the way. Good commonsense choice.

There is a huge difference between being isolationist and adopting a neutral position. Neither of which have much to do with a nuclear-free policy, which is a most sensible choice whether you are pro-, anti- or neutral-anything.

It is inane statements like "you are either with us or against us" by the incumbent idiot in the US that moves that nation into an involuntarily isolated position.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
There is a huge difference between being isolationist and adopting a neutral position. Neither of which have much to do with a nuclear-free policy, which is a most sensible choice whether you are pro-, anti- or neutral-anything.

It is inane statements like "you are either with us or against us" by the incumbent idiot in the US that moves that nation into an involuntarily isolated position.

Hey lets get the exact quote right ok?


Having issued directives to guide his administration�s preparations for war, on Thursday, September 20, President Bush addressed the nation before a joint session of Congress. �Tonight,� he said, �we are a country awakened to danger.� The President blamed al Qaeda for 9/11 and the 1998 embassy bombings and, for the first time, declared that al Qaeda was �responsible for bombing the USS Cole.� He reiterated the ultimatum that had already been conveyed privately. �The Taliban must act, and act immediately,� he said. �They will hand over the terrorists, or they will share in their fate.� The President added that America�s quarrel was not with Islam: �The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every [emphasis mine] government that supports them.� Other regimes faced hard choices, he pointed out:

�Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.�

President Bush argued that the new war went beyond Bin Ladin. �Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there,� he said. �It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped, and defeated. �The President had a message for the Pentagon: �The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud.� He also had a message for those outside the United States. �This is civilization�s fight,� he said. �We ask every nation to join us.�

sorry man couldn't resist that phil collins song...no worries mate...here is Australia.

Do you just sometimes break down with all that you see there in Iraq or has the whole experience just numbed you?

cheers mate

alien you maori? if so welcome...Ponca tribe Indian (states)...always love to hang with the other natives...if not disregard.

Originally posted by spaceghost
alien you maori? if so welcome...Ponca tribe Indian (states)...always love to hang with the other natives...if not disregard.

Kia Ora e kare (Greetings/Be Well treasured friend). Yup...I'm Maori

And I must wholeheartedly agree with MaskedAvatar on this one. The stance we took and continue to take was not isolationist at all...which is probably best highlighted by the fact theres a damned Burger King over my back fence and 2 McDonalds in less than a kilometre radius.