"to my God and your God”

reply to post by DISRAELI

That is why I always refer back to the authoritative statements of Christian teaching, as found in the decisions of the Council of Chalcedon and the Athanasian Creed.

The "authoritative statements of Christian teachings" don't change the fact that Jesus made many statements about him being non-divine and also separate entity from God.

The line in the OP is just one example. The statement "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" clearly shows that Jesus' God is our God. How do you interpret this to mean Jesus is both God and man?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

The theologians who developed the creeds came to that conclusion by combining that statement with other New Testament statements, like Thomas's declaration "My Lord and my God", which has already been quoted in this thread.
So some data give the information that Christ is God, and others give the information that Christ is man.
Putting them together, you get "God and man".

Originally posted by Klassified
Then why did he allow Thomas to call him "Lord and God"?

John 20:24-29

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I haven't once said that he isn't a god. Jesus himself said as much when the people falsely accused him of blasphemy, and he responded by saying, "“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" John 10:34-36 This is in reference to Psalms 82 when the people themselves are called gods "I said, ‘You are “gods you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler. -verse 6. Jesus was basically saying, if others can rightly be called gods, then he too can be called that...so Thomas called him that. For instance, let's say we lived in the Middle Ages, the time of Kings and Lords. If you called someone Lord, that didn't mean that you thought he was Jesus. Likewise, I don't believe that Thomas thought that Jesus was YHWH, just that he could use the title.

And my answer to Aquestion: I don't believe that humans are less than pure spirit beings...I don't remember saying that. If I remember correctly I said we have some limitations that pure spirit beings don't.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The vast majority of Christians believe in a Trinity God. The Jews and Muslims DO NOT. So when people claim that Christians and Muslims and Jews all the worship the same God .. that simply is not true.

I completely agree, the majority of Christians do not worship the same God that the Jews did.

God is the 'only one'.
There are not different gods.
If you worship another time or another place (in your mind) then you will not know the true God.
God is presence and presence never leaves.
Man spends 'time' elsewhere and suffers (man is lost in thought, lost in time).

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
God is the 'only one'.
There are not different gods.
If you worship another time or another place (in your mind) then you will not know the true God.
God is presence and presence never leaves.
Man spends 'time' elsewhere and suffers (man is lost in thought, lost in time).

edit on 25-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father." -1 Corinthians 8:5,6

There is only one true God to be worshiped and that is the Father. Anyone else that uses the title is doing just that, simply using it as a descriptive title.

Originally posted by The_Phantom

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
God is the 'only one'.
There are not different gods.
If you worship another time or another place (in your mind) then you will not know the true God.
God is presence and presence never leaves.
Man spends 'time' elsewhere and suffers (man is lost in thought, lost in time).

edit on 25-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father." -1 Corinthians 8:5,6

There is only one true God to be worshiped and that is the Father. Anyone else that uses the title is doing just that, simply using it as a descriptive title.

edit on 25-11-2012 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)

The true God requires no worship.
When God is found all 'other' are seen as delusion.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by The_Phantom

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
God is the 'only one'.
There are not different gods.
If you worship another time or another place (in your mind) then you will not know the true God.
God is presence and presence never leaves.
Man spends 'time' elsewhere and suffers (man is lost in thought, lost in time).

edit on 25-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father." -1 Corinthians 8:5,6

There is only one true God to be worshiped and that is the Father. Anyone else that uses the title is doing just that, simply using it as a descriptive title.

edit on 25-11-2012 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)

The true God requires no worship.
When God is found there is no other.

edit on 25-11-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Ok, fair enough I would agree with that point.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." -John 4:23

There is no 'my' or 'your'.
There is only God.
The belief that there is a 'you' that is separate from God is what hurts.

Originally posted by The_Phantom

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." -John 4:23

The time is now. The Presence will not come - it is and always will be.

The mind of man 'seeks' everywhere but cannot find because it 'seeks' other (elsewhere) than the only place that exists.
The belief in 'other' is what misleads. There is no 'other'. This is it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
If Jesus is God, why did he state that Father is our Father....and that God is our God.
Tell me.

You've been told many times. You just refuse to listen.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus spoke many things.... him being both God and man is not one of them.

Actually He did.
He called himself 'son of man' ...
He also said 'if you have seen me you have seen the Father'

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I base all my threads on the bible. If Christians are having a hard time explaining how Jesus is God, when Jesus said his God is our God... then theres a problem.

Christians don't have a hard time explaining it at all.
But apparently you have a hard time accepting what is put clearly in front of you.
The 'problem' lies with YOU .. not with what is being presented by Christians.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
The last person I was posting to here, made a statement that Jesus is God.

Jesus is True God and True Man. BOTH. You've been told this many times.
And you've been shown MANY bible verses showing where Christians get this belief.

reply to post by The_Phantom

I haven't once said that he isn't a god.

I never once said you did. My post was addressed to the OP. But since you mention it...

The bible is quite clear that Jesus is "Immanuel"(God with us). We can maneuver chapters and verses around all day long to make it say what we want it to say, but that doesn't change what is clearly written.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Jesus is True God and True Man. BOTH. You've been told this many times.
And you've been shown MANY bible verses showing where Christians get this belief.

That can't be true. Christian doctrine has always shown the idea of "God" to be associated with utter and complete perfection. Man, as stated in the Bible, is an impure creature and about as far from perfection as one can get.

What you're suggesting is that Jesus was both perfect and imperfect. That's impossible. And I am not the least bit surprised that Christians have managed to entertain the possibility of this notion, given how far they are willing to go to ignore the facts. Harvard scholars have even admitted they will turn their backs on the evidence to support their religion.

Perfection and imperfection, as defined by Christianity, simply cannot coexist in the same form. By the way, would you please remind me what the rationalization was concerning the OP's discovery of Jesus distinguishing himself from this "God"? He appears to be making a valid point, but I'm interested in knowing both sides.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Perfection and imperfection, as defined by Christianity, simply cannot coexist in the same form. By the way, would you please remind me what the rationalization was concerning the OP's discovery of Jesus distinguishing himself from this "God"? He appears to be making a valid point, but I'm interested in knowing both sides.

Both sides? There are no 'sides' in oneness.
Non duality, unconceptual awareness says it all coexists just as it is - without judgement, without words that speak in forked tongue.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Both sides? There are no 'sides' in oneness.
Non duality, unconceptual awareness says it all coexists just as it is - without judgement, without words that speak in forked tongue.

Obviously there are sides, or there wouldn't be an argument. Now please, answer me without the riddles or don't answer me at all.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
By the way, would you please remind me what the rationalization was concerning the OP's discovery of Jesus distinguishing himself from this "God"? He appears to be making a valid point, but I'm interested in knowing both sides.

I've dealt with this point a number of times, but I'll do it again.
Jesus distinguishes himself from God because he is a man.
The fact that Jesus is a man is one of the elements in the overall Christian teaching that Christ is both God and man.

What is that line at the bottom of the American flag?
Is it a stripe?
Does the fact that you can see a stripe prevent you from recognising stars on other parts of the flag?
That is why the American flag is called "the Stars and Stripes".
Similarly, recognising that Christ is Man is hardly an obstacle to recognising that Christ is both God and Man.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Both sides? There are no 'sides' in oneness.
Non duality, unconceptual awareness says it all coexists just as it is - without judgement, without words that speak in forked tongue.

Obviously there are sides, or there wouldn't be an argument. Now please, answer me without the riddles or don't answer me at all.

Man has sides so he can battle on the battle field.
God is in the middle (no side) watching. God embraces all.
Sitting peacefully in a Buddhafield.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
That can't be true. Christian doctrine has always shown the idea of "God" to be associated with utter and complete perfection. Man, as stated in the Bible, is an impure creature and about as far from perfection as one can

Not Man as such. Only Man.in combination with sin.
That is the point of the declaration in Hebrews that Jesus was "without sin".

reply to post by DISRAELI

Not Man as such. Only Man.in combination with sin.
That is the point of the declaration in Hebrews that Jesus was "without sin".

Ah, but who says Jesus was without sin? The same people who were smitten with his power and wisdom?

1pride
noun ˈprīd
Definition of PRIDE
1
: the quality or state of being proud: as
a : inordinate self-esteem : conceit
b : a reasonable or justifiable self-respect

According to all the Christians here who say Jesus was "God" in the flesh, Jesus was proud of himself. It doesn't matter why; pride is a sin. So is wrath, which Jesus exhibited on more than one occasion.

"But it's God! He is rightfully proud of himself, and his wrath is righteous!"

So where is the fine print that declares these sins acceptable on certain occasions or under specific circumstances? I've never seen it. The seven deadly sins were stated without exception.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Perfect and imperfect are words that you put upon things, events, people etc. They are judgements.
What is arising comes wordless and pure. Can you see it/hear it (the glory of god) without tainting it with your judgement?