"to my God and your God”

reply to post by The_Phantom


Dear The_Phantom,

Nope, I can't do better then that, That is in fact the point I always intended to make...that 'proof' scriptures can't be based on translators choice. He was the Son of God, he was a spirit being and he gave that up to be a man.

Sorry; but, that answer doesn't fly if you will not read and understand what the translators said and I why they chose the translation that they did even if they could have translated it differently. What "proof" do you seek? You say that he was the son of God, that means that you are saying there is a God. Jesus' name means "God's salvation" or "God's forgiveness". He is the physical appearance of God's love for us. Perhaps you can tell us what you think he was, a man who was good enough that he could be killed so that other men could be saved? Perhaps then you agree with the people that killed him, he should be killed for claiming to be God.

This is pretty easy to sort out. The old Jewish version of god was Yahweh, which comes down to the theme of "Enlil".

The Jesus version of god was "Enki", who was the genetic experimenter that combined their DNA with that of humans on Earth. The genetic hybrids were termed "Adam and Eve" and their descendants, some more pure than others, like Enoch and Elijah.


So, the god of the Jewish is not the god of which Jesus spoke, and they are two separate beings or archetypes. Jesus, like David's genetics, expressed with blonde hair and blue eyes and also likely type O neg blood. This appears closest to the Adam and Eve genetics that was developed by Enki, making his the father to which Jesus referred.


The Pharisee and Sadducee disowned Jesus because he directly stated their god was not his. But overall, Jesus chose the benevolent god that protected his human creations and shunned the vengeful god that sought more extermination via the flood.

Since the Jewish picked the exterminator god, this is what they shall reap.


Is Jesus god, no, but perhaps Jesus served at the right hand for the correct concept for Enki's seeking benevolence and peace. Jesus would be closer to the theme of Enoch and Elijah.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by The_Phantom

 

Dear The_Phantom,

Nope, I can't do better then that, That is in fact the point I always intended to make...that 'proof' scriptures can't be based on translators choice. He was the Son of God, he was a spirit being and he gave that up to be a man.

Sorry; but, that answer doesn't fly if you will not read and understand what the translators said and I why they chose the translation that they did even if they could have translated it differently. What "proof" do you seek? You say that he was the son of God, that means that you are saying there is a God. Jesus' name means "God's salvation" or "God's forgiveness". He is the physical appearance of God's love for us. Perhaps you can tell us what you think he was, a man who was good enough that he could be killed so that other men could be saved? Perhaps then you agree with the people that killed him, he should be killed for claiming to be God.

That is what his name meant. Because he represented salvation and God forgave man due to the actions of Jesus. If his name meant "Trinity" then you might have an argument.

He was a balance on the scales of justice for the sin of Adam a perfect man, a son of God, but he stayed obedient to the Father to his God as the OP pointed out: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." -Romans 5:12;18,19

Time for me to get some sleep for now. Later!

reply to post by The_Phantom


Dear The_Phantom,

Firstly, I did not raise the issue of the trinity; but, am more than willing to address it.

That is what his name meant. Because he represented Salvation and God forgave man due to the actions of Jesus. If his name meant "Trinity" then you might have an argument. He was a balance on the scales of justice to for the sin of Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." -Romans 5:12;18,19

How funny, and you act as if you cannot understand my link; but, seem to know your bible. How nice. Earlier you mentioned that you believe he gave up his spirit, his nature? What do you mean by that, which aspect of his soul do you think he gave up? Do you think he stopped being God, being himself? Do you believe that we are not spirits just because we have bodies? Is your position that God exists, Jesus was just a man and what?

You are not a Christian, are you Jewish? Are you a Jehovah's Witness, where are you coming from. I have many times said that I am a non-denominational Christian and even Atheists on ATS know that. Why don't you just tell us what you believe and stop being coy.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by The_Phantom

 

Dear The_Phantom,

Firstly, I did not raise the issue of the trinity; but, am more than willing to address it.

That is what his name meant. Because he represented Salvation and God forgave man due to the actions of Jesus. If his name meant "Trinity" then you might have an argument. He was a balance on the scales of justice to for the sin of Adam: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." -Romans 5:12;18,19

How funny, and you act as if you cannot understand my link; but, seem to know your bible. How nice. Earlier you mentioned that you believe he gave up his spirit, his nature? What do you mean by that, which aspect of his soul do you think he gave up? Do you think he stopped being God, being himself? Do you believe that we are not spirits just because we have bodies? Is your position that God exists, Jesus was just a man and what?

You are not a Christian, are you Jewish? Are you a Jehovah's Witness, where are you coming from. I have many times said that I am a non-denominational Christian and even Atheists on ATS know that. Why don't you just tell us what you believe and stop being coy.

One last post before I go to bed. He gave up his place in heaven as a pure spirit being like God is to be a man. I think he gave up his place in heaven for a brief period of time, but I don't believe he gave up being God because he never was God. You may be a spirit but you currently have all the limitations that flesh brings. That's what Jesus gave up intentionally, being a pure spirit being to have many of the limitations that we have...like feeling pain and experiencing death. I believe that God exists. And I believe that Jesus is his firstborn son, the first being that he created before creating anything else. But that doesn't make them one and the same being. They are two separate beings. Goodnight.

reply to post by The_Phantom


Dear The_Phantom,

And you entitled to believe whatever you want.

One last post before I go to bed. He gave up his place in heaven as a pure spirit being like God is to be a man. I think he gave up his place in heaven for a brief period of time, but I don't believe he gave up being God because he never was God. You may be a spirit but you currently have all the limitations that flesh brings. That's what Jesus gave up intentionally, being a pure spirit being to have many of the limitations that we have...like feeling pain and experiencing death. I believe that God exists. And I believe that Jesus is his firstborn son, the first being that he created before creating anything else. But that doesn't make them one and the same being. They are two separate beings. Goodnight.

Why do you see being human as less than being a pure spirit, an angel if you will? We are not less than pure spirit, we are to one day command angels, spirits by your words. We are to be tested in fire, that is this life, not the simple life of angels. We make choices, angels are pure, no hard decision making their, no self definition.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

This has exactly the same answer as all the other Incarnation-based conundrums that you come up with.
The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.
Inasmuch as he is God, he is God.
Inasmuch as he is man, then he has a God.

If you prefer it in the archaic language of the Athanasian Creed;
"perfect God and Perfect Man; of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead;
AND INFERIOR TO THE FATHER AS TOUCHING HIS MANHOOD".

That last point covers your quoted verse.
It's all there.

Then why did he allow Thomas to call him "Lord and God"?

John 20:24-29

24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

This isn't some mysterious riddle or a cryptic message laden with hidden symbols. Rather, its a simple and direct statement that shows exactly where Jesus stood in relation to God and people.

Jesus says his Father is Father to the people as well, and also that his God is also the God of the people. I wish I could expand on this further, but this simple statement speaks volumes for itself.

When we have such resoundingly clear statements from Jesus, that he himself prayed to God, why do Christians insist that Jesus is actually the God he was talking about? Its like me telling a coworker "my boss is your boss" and he interprets that as "I am your boss".

Now I know Christians will start pulling out verses to demonstrate how Jesus is actually God.
Please don't waste your time... instead focus on the statement "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" and explain how you interpret it as meaning Jesus is God.

Do you interpret those words as meaning Jesus said "I am your Father and I am your God" or "my Father and your Father, who is actually me.... my God and your God, who is actually me"?

I don't believe that Jesus is God, not because I have something against Jesus... but only because of Jesus' own statements that his God is my God too.

Discuss.

edit on 23-11-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

What did God use for materials to construct the universe?

This is a question that the Hebrews scholars have asked since antiquity to demonstrate what emanation of the Image of God represents. According to the Hebrews, God opened a void within Himself and then refilled that void with Himself. We then see what the Son of God is. Keep in mind, the Son is immortal and moving. God is Eternal and unmoved. Again, the question.

What did God use for materials to construct the universe?

1 Colossians 1: 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

The Son is the perfected Image of God. That image was then used to render all of what we see in the Cosmos, the void opened to hold the emanated image. The Cosmos is the macrocosm that is the Son and we are the microcosm that is the Son's image. Why? The Son contains the whole just as we contain the whole. We must be raised to become the perfected image that the Son was in the beginning.

Genesis has two creation stories. One is the Elohim creating paradise. Genesis 2 is the willing involution of the Son so that his flock could be shepherded back to the Father. In reality, all of it represents the original Father and His involution within the void. The purpose is to broaden infinity and for the Delight of the Father. When Christ says, "I and the Father are one," He is making a broader statement than simply that He is God. We are all part of God, yet there can only be ONE totality.

Again, the question: What material did God use to construct the universe? Consciousness. The only way for One consciousness can be divided is for that One to become many. Involution into the void allows the Spirit of God to fall into matter as a process to rediscover the whole. The Father is Adam and then Abraham. The Son is Issac and then Jesus. The Holy Spirit is then given to mankind as a final aspect of the process to develop Holy Consciousness.

How does the child stand on His own? He must be released from the grip of the father and mother. How does the Prodigal Son return? Love for the Father. Where did the Prodigal Son go? The wilderness in the mud.

Gospel of Philip

When the pearl is cast down into the mud, it becomes greatly despised, nor if it is anointed with balsam oil will it become more precious. But it always has value in the eyes of its owner. Compare the Sons of God: wherever they may be, they still have value in the eyes of their Father.

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)

12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

Involution is turning in on one's self (within). Compare this to Luke 17:

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Jesus was the FIRST to have the Holy Spirit and a body representing the new blood (DNA) that we will all receive.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n



Additionally, from the gospel of Philip:

A Hebrew makes another Hebrew, and such a person is called "proselyte". But a proselyte does not make another proselyte. [...] just as they [...] and make others like themselves, while others simply exist.

----A Kinsman of the Son makes another Kinsman, and such a person is called a stranger. But a stranger does not make another stranger. A stranger is simply passing through to another place.

The slave seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to acquire the estate of his master. But the son is not only a son but lays claim to the inheritance of the father. Those who are heirs to the dead are themselves dead, and they inherit the dead. Those who are heirs to what is living are alive, and they are heirs to both what is living and the dead. The dead are heirs to nothing. For how can he who is dead inherit? If he who is dead inherits what is living he will not die, but he who is dead will live even more.

------The slave (Bond servant to the Son) seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to aquire the estate of the master (God). But the Son is not only a Son but lays claim to the inheritance of the Father. Those who are heirs to the dead (Slaves of sin and death) are themselves dead (Locked in Baptism into the water), and they inherit another life of death. The dead are heirs to nothing. For how can he who is dead inherit? If he who is dead inherits what is living he will not die, but he who is dead will live even more (In the water) because of those who find life. It's a process that only ends when it is no longer needed.

A Gentile does not die, for he has never lived in order that he may die. He who has believed in the truth has found life, and this one is in danger of dying, for he is alive. Since Christ came, the world has been created, the cities adorned, the dead carried out. When we were Hebrews, we were orphans and had only our mother, but when we became Christians, we had both father and mother.

-----A Gentile (Lacking the Word) does not die, for he has never lived in order that he may die. He who has believed in the truth has found life (received the word), and this one is in danger of dying (Finding the water), for he is alive (Soul wakes up). Since Christ came, the world has been created, the cities adorned, the dead carried out (Baptism of Spirit). When we were Hebrews (Kinsman), we were orphans and had only our mother (Spirit), but when we became Christians (Adopted into the family of the Son), we had both Father and Mother.

Those who sow in winter reap in summer. The winter is the world, the summer the other Aeon (eternal realm). Let us sow in the world that we may reap in the summer. Because of this, it is fitting for us not to pray in the winter. Summer follows winter. But if any man reap in winter he will not actually reap but only pluck out, since it will not provide a harvest for such a person.

Those who so in the World reap in the next world to come. Let us sow (Fruit of repentance from baptism) in the world that we may reap in the world to come. Because of this, it is fitting for us not to pray in the winter (for more world). The world to come follows the world of material reality. But if a man reap in the world (Goods and wealth) he will not actually reap but only pluck out, since it will not provide a harvest for such a person (in the world to come).

Does this give you a better view of what the Father represents and why we must all have the Father and Mother (Holy Spirit)? Jesus is the firstfruits of this process and the one that we are all Shepherded by. The Trinity of Father, Son and Spirit is the Trinity that IS God.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
why do Christians insist that Jesus is actually the God he was talking about?

It's not. That's not what Christians say at all.

Jesus is Jesus. God the Father is God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
Three separate identies and yet there is only One God and they are all that one God.

Jesus can be God Incarnate and at the same time The Father can be God in Heaven.
GOD can do anything. GOD IS GOD.

The Trinity

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

Now I know Christians will start pulling out verses to demonstrate how Jesus is actually God.
Please don't waste your time...

Then why did you start a discussion thread if you don't want to discuss it??


JOHN - 'In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God'.

Oh .. and yes .. Mary is the Mother of God ...
Mary the Mother of God

A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).

Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.

Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.

ENJOY LEARNING ABOUT THE MOTHER OF GOD.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Three separate identies and yet there is only One God and they are all that one God.

Jesus can be God Incarnate and at the same time The Father can be God in Heaven.
GOD can do anything. GOD IS GOD.

This is more of the same old 1+1+1=1 logic.

Are you telling me that God is actually a "team" of 3 separate entities?

Then why did you start a discussion thread if you don't want to discuss it??

Next time, try and quote my words entirely.
I said "Please don't waste your time... instead focus on the statement "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" and explain how you interpret it as meaning Jesus is God. "....

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Jesus is Jesus. God the Father is God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
Three separate identies and yet there is only One God and they are all that one God.

Jesus can be God Incarnate and at the same time The Father can be God in Heaven.
GOD can do anything. GOD IS GOD.

So they are three separate personalities? As in "You are FlyersFan and I am Cuervo but we are both ATS"?

Are you a Christian? I've never heard a Christian admit that they are three different things simply waving the same flag. That would make much more sense and not look like they are simply trying to get around being labeled as a polytheistic religion.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Are you telling me that God is actually a "team" of 3 separate entities?

Read the link. It explains the concept of The Holy Trinity - which most Christians believe.
God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit.
Like a clover leaf .. three leaves but still one leaf.

Originally posted by Cuervo
Are you a Christian?

Yes.

I've never heard a Christian admit that they are three different things simply waving the same flag.

The vast majority of Christians believe in a Trinity God. The Jews and Muslims DO NOT. So when people claim that Christians and Muslims and Jews all the worship the same God .. that simply is not true.

The Christian Trinity

Like I said .. it's like a clover leaf. A clover leaf is one leaf, but it is also three leaves.
That's the Christian Trinity. God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit.
Photo of Clover Leaf

reply to post by Klassified

Then why did he allow Thomas to call him "Lord and God"?

Maybe it was an exclamation of surpise? The "OMG" of his time.

Or Did Thomas recognize Jesus (Who taught everyone to pray to his God) as God after Jesus rose from the dead?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Christians saying Jesus is our God really gets on your nerves doesn't it?

Oh man have you got it bad.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

This has exactly the same answer as all the other Incarnation-based conundrums that you come up with.
The Christian teaching is that Christ is BOTH God and man.
Inasmuch as he is God, he is God.
Inasmuch as he is man, then he has a God.

If you prefer it in the archaic language of the Athanasian Creed;
"perfect God and Perfect Man; of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead;
AND INFERIOR TO THE FATHER AS TOUCHING HIS MANHOOD".

That last point covers your quoted verse.
It's all there.

Except he isn't a man anymore, his humanity was what was sacrificed on the cross. It was the man that became the curse for us and made to taste both deaths for us. He's gone back to being who he was before he was a man, the Son of Yahveh.

reply to post by The_Phantom

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." -Colossians 1:15
He's the spitting image of his dad, I wonder if anybody has ever heard that expression before?

You mean Jesus was the very first Invisible Man?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Except he isn't a man anymore, his humanity was what was sacrificed on the cross. It was the man that became the curse for us and made to taste both deaths for us. He's gone back to being who he was before he was a man, the Son of Yahveh.

Which means he became inhumane. His humanity was lost in that moment of sacrifice, according to you. Everything after that is the work of an inhumane being. Not the kind of guy I want for a savior.