Homeless man challenges Vancouver bylaws that prohibit sleeping outside

A formerly homeless man is challenging the constitutionality of three City of Vancouver bylaws that prohibit sleeping on streets or in parks and erecting a shelter on city property. Clarence Taylor, 57, says the bylaws violate his right to life, liberty and security of person. The Pivot Legal Society is filing a lawsuit on his behalf Thursday in B.C. Supreme Court.

www.vancouversun.com...


The full story is not what i call highly conducive road to enlightenment....but to each his own path.....I certainly like what they are doing in court for the homeless...who have a right to exist by virtue of being live human beings, and if they fall asleep while wandering the empty sidewalks of a pitiless city,should they not be allowed to lie down?Surely the Law must recognize this simple human nessessity........
The problem seems to lie in directions other than that of logistics, or common sense, or human dignity.......
And the politicians live in a world as far removed from ordinary reality.....as the homeless do from yours or mine.......
The solution is certainly not to squeeze more and more humanity into smaller and smaller acreages......
In fact i believe the opposite is in direct corollary to the current agendas....
The further we can space humans from each other(to a point of courtse) the more healthy minds and bodies we end up sharing society with......
The futility of somehow expecting society and those who reap the rewards of leadership,to deal practically with social problems and act in a responsive human and caring manner to the needs of the society they are chosen to lead and profit from,is well illustrated in the plight of the growing army of homeless ......
I guess it could be worse but how much worse can it get other than a gulag in siberia or some other godforsaken extemporary torture palace?
When one understands that many of the homeless are war vetrans who have been physically and spiritually forsaken by those same suits in goverment who handed out the medals and posed for the PR pics in the wards of amputees......
Others were turned out of institutions in a money saving venture by goverment in their bewildered thousands,
Children,and the aged now are apearing in greater numbers too......rents go up, food goes up,bus fare,school fees, hydro,and gas.....but the same 8.oo an hour job, remains becomming slowly or quickly not enough to keep a roof over ones head....that pension just doesnt keep up with an older persons expenses and as the costs rise, the people can afford less and less of the services and nessessities of life in that society.....
This isnt rocket science, and the need for greed is the sole driver of this inequality......
We are making these people into marginal quantities......this is what the society we subscribe to does to its human beings......

I would not dare state this as fact, but as theory. Under capitalism, even under good economic conditions, is there not always unemployment? If there's unemployment there are going to be homeless people. That is common sense. Capitalism almost guarantees homelessness for some. Therefore, I see no sense in judging the homeless. If you live within a system that guarantees something how can one condemn that thing?

it makes sense. his has two options get an overinflated mortgage or pay someone rent.

it's pretty sad when a squirrel has more rights than a human being.

A big Hell yea to this guy!

Although it gets pretty cold in Vancouver 10 months out of the year I know I live here. Regardless good for this guy and good for people taking notice, it's the small steps that move nations.

Wouldn't it be neat if we could just make camp anywhere? No rent to pay, no hydro, no property tax! That sounds fantastic....oh right that is why it's illegal, "they" can't make money off you.
We are property of the Harper Empire and if you cannot be sold into labor (having a job) then you may as well die in the cold, shame on you for trying to sleep in a warm place at night without a job who do you think you are?


Umm.....sir... I am a human do I not have rights?

Only if you work as a slave 8 hours of the day and pay bills to feed "your" economy.

Oh........

Frankly he can do what he wants. So long as he doesn't force people to clean up his crap from the street or his body from the gutter when he freezes to death.

If he wants to live outside, then he can take himself out of the city..

Originally posted by Aquarius2150

Although it gets pretty cold in Vancouver 10 months out of the year I know I live here.

Is that a typo?

Vancouver has the most temperate climate of any city in Canada. To say it's mild is an understatement. You don't even get snow, it's slush.

Anyway, there is no law against sleep. If I were sleeping outside and some dumbass cop tried to strong arm me into "moving on" I'd wrap his skull a few times with his oversized mag-lite.

Nowhere near enough people stand up against this kind of ridiculous BS, and that's exactly why it's happening. "you don't exercise your freedom, then you lose it"

Good on him for taking a stand.

Two or three years ago a homeless man decided to make the his "home" beneath the balconies of the building where I live. One of my neighbours was worried (I don't know why) and called the police, with hope that they would do something about it, specially because the man was from some Eastern Europe country.

When the police arrived they only asked for his papers, and as everything was in order they left him as he was, because everyone can stay where they in public areas. After all, that's what "public" means.

Originally posted by juniperberry
Frankly he can do what he wants. So long as he doesn't force people to clean up his crap from the street or his body from the gutter when he freezes to death.

If he wants to live outside, then he can take himself out of the city..

Why does he have to "take himself out of the city" ?

He has as much right to reside there as anyone else.

Originally posted by ArMaP
Two or three years ago a homeless man decided to make the his "home" beneath the balconies of the building where I live. One of my neighbours was worried (I don't know why) and called the police, with hope that they would do something about it, specially because the man was from some Eastern Europe country.

When the police arrived they only asked for his papers, and as everything was in order they left him as he was, because everyone can stay where they in public areas. After all, that's what "public" means.

What would they have done if the man "didn't have papers" or did, but had some that "were not in order" ? (whatever that means?)

Here I think the police would have removed the person as a vagrant and put him in jail for the night (or worse).... I feel badly for the homeless in this time. They are often taken advantage of and abused, sometimes killed, even by those sworn to protect them.

If they aren't harming anyone - NO FOUL

Originally posted by HIWATT

Originally posted by Aquarius2150

Although it gets pretty cold in Vancouver 10 months out of the year I know I live here.

Is that a typo?

Vancouver has the most temperate climate of any city in Canada. To say it's mild is an understatement. You don't even get snow, it's slush.

The second the winds become easterly and not off the ocean it snows and freezes like any other Canadian city.

Originally posted by HIWATT
What would they have done if the man "didn't have papers" or did, but had some that "were not in order" ? (whatever that means?)

As he was a foreigner he would probably be sent back to his country.

Edited to add that if he was Portuguese the most the police could do would be to ask him for some ID, but only if they had some reason to suspect he was going to do commit some crime or if he was on a place known for a high crime rate (which is not the case )

I fail to understand the arrogance of people who wish to legislate penalties for simply being alive.
\The poster who said he should "take himself out of the city" i find to be extremely cold hearted and selfish.
Those who are fortunate enough to have the nessessities certainly can be implacably ignorant of the horror stories
those less fortunate have to live.

reply to post by HIWATT


Yes I know we get slushly winters, I just meant its would be cold to sleep outside in rain or damp weather. I feel terrible when I see people huddled next to a building in the pouring rain with no where to go.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I would not dare state this as fact, but as theory. Under capitalism, even under good economic conditions, is there not always unemployment? If there's unemployment there are going to be homeless people. That is common sense. Capitalism almost guarantees homelessness for some. Therefore, I see no sense in judging the homeless. If you live within a system that guarantees something how can one condemn that thing?

You should dare because it is the truth.

Capitalism requires unemployment. It is not in the capitalists best interest to have full employment. If jobs were plenty then the workers would have bargaining power against the owner. The owners would have to constantly raise wages and improve working conditions, as the workers could easily find other work.

We will never have full employment under capitalism.

“Unemployment is an integral part of the ‘normal’ capitalist system.” Michał Kalecki

Sometimes I forget that people do not realize what unemployment in a modern capitalist economy actually is. There are of course different types of unemployment, but even in good times, around 4-6% of people actively seeking work will never be able to find it. That is because the central bank intentionally creates unemployment — usually by increasing interest rates — to keep inflation under control. When unemployment dips below those levels, the bargaining power of workers increases substantially, giving them the ability to bargain up their wages, which can generate inflation. At least, that is what mainstream macroeconomics claims.

Unemployment is a structural problem in capitalism

So my question as a resident of the city in question is what would you like done?

More taxpayer money to house the downtrodden?

Tough love?

Work programs for the homeless that come with accomodation?

Maybe other provinces, to stop shipping there homeless here due to our climate?

I personally am sick of the deluge of people that accoste me for money daily, I for one am sick of seeing able bodied people who due nothing but laze about and claim that I the taxpayer should be held accountable, for there downfall. I am sick of cardboard lean toos in my underground parking each morning with the accompanying smell of piss.

I do have a heart, I give food and old clothing to the ones in the fairview neighborhood that I live and work in, but when does it become too much, when are we going to hold people personally accountable, why do I a non drug addict have to provide for the drug addict. Why do I a taxpayer have to put up with people sleeping just outside the lobby of my building, why do I have to put up with my car being broken into for a few pennys in the centre console, why do we direct millions of dollars to provide for those not interested in providing for themselves.

I know not all homeless are drug addicts some experienced hardships unfathomable, but let it be said most are, most are screw ups who gave up on living the life we are all forced too, and now they are where they are. Should we help people? yeah we should, it's all apart of being human and looking out for one and other, but as I asked earlier when is it too much, when do people stop wanting and start expecting, and when that handout isn't enough and they call for more do we give in again. When did the rights of the person putting into the system get trumped bye the rights of those who offer nothing back to society.

Then too have people bring frivoulous lawsuits against a city for adhearing to the want's of the tax paying public, to not have there city look like one giant s***hole with people holed up in every corner, temporary structures built all over. For me my opinion is I did not put these people there, I am not responsible for the way they carry themselves or the previous issues they had. Why then do I have to be the one who suffers the smell of piss, insurance claims to ICBC, and now have our already taxed legal system held up once again by someone who feel that although they screwed up someone else should be held accountable.

In closing don't wanna be harrased by the police, fix your damn life, call me cold hearted all you all want, but fact is so many of these people refuse housing cause they can't bring there carts or the plunders of there days thefts into the SRO's provided. So many of them are drug addicts who end up back on the street after being thrown out of there last avenue for shelter, for breaking the rules of the shelter provided. And I implore anyone who lives DT like I do to talk to these people and find out why they are there, ask how many would be housed if it came with rules and regulations like normal people live under and then you might truely see why we have so many "homeless" and it's not cause the government isn't doing anything about it. They do plenty keeping them messed up with injection sites, crack smoking rooms, and numerous other social aid programs that litter the DTES.

Too me this is another person who needs to have 15 seconds of fame, it's another person who thinks that I and everyone else should get over the fact they gave up and now they want others to accept there failure. Well I'm sorry but we all have challenges in life, we all have to choose a path. If that path leads you to the streets don't expect others to be ok with you living on the sidewalk in front of their building, don't expect the people who pay for clean safe streets to open store fronts for lean toos. Expect the ire of the general public who sees a person who could have contributed but lacked personal accountability , fall off and now expects me and everyone else to feel sorry and change the rules of the city to accept those who do nothing to make it beautiful.

SaneThinking

Originally posted by Aquarius2150
reply to post by HIWATT

 

Yes I know we get slushly winters, I just meant its would be cold to sleep outside in rain or damp weather. I feel terrible when I see people huddled next to a building in the pouring rain with no where to go.

I know what you mean. The lower mainland is almost worse in the winter BECAUSE it's so wet... it may not be as cold but it is a lot harder to stay dry and that is what kills you quicker than the temperature :-/

reply to post by SaneThinking


Wow that was well said and every single frustration that I feel. People don't seem to realize that there is another ugly side to this tale and most often than not it involves drugs, illegal activity and people who simply don't want to do anything for themselves to get out of the pit they have created for themselves.

I understand that many have come from horrifying backgrounds and some never stood a chance. I understand that many in this predicament want to numb the pain. But somewhere down the line they each need to take some responsibility and make the steps to change their viscious cycle.

The frustration lies in a complacency at the expense of the tax payer who upholds their responsibliities. Many of these people simply just want to live off the system and not change their lives. There is a culture of entitlement that allows them to abandon all accountability.

I'm personally sick and tired of being accosted when ever I go downtown at every corner for money and cigarettes. I'm tired of feeling like I have to avoid certain areas because I don't want to be harassed and then verbally abused.

Vancouver and Vancouver Island has a very severe problem of homeless people who are addicts. This comes with all manner of criminal activity which ultimately is hurting innocent people via stealing, breaking into cars, homes, youth and the drug trade itself which comes with an entire criminal element that is spreading throughout our cities affecting everything and ultimately everyone.

It is different when you are helping out someone who is genuinely down and out because they have not had the same chances in life or they have fallen on hard times. It is different when someone does everything they can to get themselves up again. That is the person I want to help. Not the addict who would just as easily break into my car or steal my wallet if they could. I'm not interested in giving money to people who want it to buy the next fix in order to forget the world.

It is beyond frustrating because what I see are many homeless people who just want to chase the dragon and nothing else. I don't see them trying to make positive changes to help themselves so why should I?

I'm not saying that they are all like that but it appears that many are. I'm not saying that they don't have a right to sleep somewhere warm because everyone should have that right.

The solution is dependent on them wanting to help themselves and then providing them with the resources to make those changes a reality. It is tough love indeed.

The sad thing is that most people find themselves there because they walked through a world of hurt first. It is hard to know what is right but without them wanting to help themselves................how can anyone truly give them the right kind of help that doesn't enable them?

Originally posted by SaneThinking
So my question as a resident of the city in question is what would you like done?

More taxpayer money to house the downtrodden?

Tough love?

Work programs for the homeless that come with accomodation?

Maybe other provinces, to stop shipping there homeless here due to our climate?

I think leaving them alone is enough.

reply to post by ArMaP


So leave them alone let the problem continue to multiply. Do you perhaps live in Vancouver? Because I do. And I see this everyday.

And for the most part I leave them be, ask kindly to maybe piss in the bush around the side of the building to avoid having my parking spot smelling like piss. Or I sometimes kindly ask that they clean up there lean too materials so I can park.

But just leave them alone you say, I alter my route too safeway now so I don't have to see the local caustic vagrant whos swears and cusses at you if you don't give him money. The Tim Hortons on Broadway has its own colony forming outside as well as inside. it's a guantlet of able bodied 20 somethings who can accoste you but didn't have the fortitude to get there asses out of bed for a job when they had the chance.

But just leave them alone you say when my things are stolen, when you have a union created by drug addicts called VANDU that now has influence in local politics due to the fact the homeless drug addicts have rights to squat anywhere and destroy SRO's then complain we don't as a social city provide enough for them. Stand in the way of beautifying the city because if we tear down an old building the drug addicts won't have a roof over them to shoot up.

But just leave them alone after we build an atheltes village with city money that has low income housing built into the million dollar waterfront, that we now find out has been converted into flop housing drug dens, with the actual homeowners who spent hard earned money, putting up with the smell of illicite drugs wafting through the hallways and ventilation.

You see in my opinion we have left them alone for far too long, we have appeased and coddled along the way all those unwilling to be a part of society that got the memo, memo being...

"unless royalty or born into money, you are a serf, a wage slave regardless of weather you like your job, you have to have one, you will pay taxes till you die, and only break the cycle if you find a way to create new old money, till then you wake, you work, you sleep and do it again"

So no I will not just ask my city to leave them alone, no one escapes the fate we are all doled out from birth unless also born with a silver spoon, we all have to wake up and put on our big girl and big boy clothes and follow the rules that are set forth within society, and as a society of taxpayers there is a level of compassion that can be shown, but as I asked above when does it stop.

So we let them sleep in the streets, then we let them sleep in the parks, heck why not the lobby of my building, heck next strata meeting im gonna suggest turnig the bike lock up into unchained homeless housing after all they cut the lock and steal the bikes and sleep in there anyhow.

You see we could just leave them alone, but how does that do anything for the problem. We have what they say is approx 2600 people sleeping on the streets in Vancouver I don't argue the fact some have dimishished capacity to function within society on a whole. But I would hedge a bet that its under 5% are legitimently handicapped, of the other 95% id say 75% have created there own diminished mental capacity through drug usage and the other 20% are people who fell off and didn't take personal responsibility, now think we all owe them something.

I owe to the peope with legitiment problems not of there own creation, I would support veterens and seniors housing. But I do not support the drug habits of the people of Vancouver, I do not support laziness, I do not support people who lack ambition to get up from the gutter, I do not support Insite, or free crack pipes, I do not support refurbishing slum hotel after slum hotel only for the scum that destroy them to destroy them again.

You can say leave them alone all you want but walk around Vancouver and see if you are left alone for 2 blocks

LoL leave them alone....

SaneThinking

Originally posted by SaneThinking
So leave them alone let the problem continue to multiply. Do you perhaps live in Vancouver? Because I do. And I see this everyday.

I say "leave them alone" because they are the result of a problem, that's why their number keep on multiplying, because the problems that create them are not solved.

And no, I don't live in Vancouver, you can see in my mini profile to the left that I live in Portugal.

From what you posted now I see that the problem is bigger than your first posts showed, so I understand your position.

You see we could just leave them alone, but how does that do anything for the problem. We have what they say is approx 2600 people sleeping on the streets in Vancouver I don't argue the fact some have dimishished capacity to function within society on a whole.

I just looked at the most recent figures of homeless people where I live (a small town when compared with Vancouver, with a little more than 100,000 inhabitants), and last year we had around 140, so Vancouver has something like 3 times more homeless than Almada (the city where I live). Portugal is a poor country with a very high unemployment rate (more than 15%, I think), so we should have more homeless people per capita than a Canadian city (we also have a much warmer climate, the coldest temperature ever here in Almada was two years ago, 0º Celsius).

It looks like Vancouver really has a problem with the homeless, either it "creates" more than "normal" or, as you say, for some reason they are "importing" them from other places, so while I still think that they should be left alone, I think that the reason for such a high number of homeless should be found and corrected.

PS: I always think that people should be left alone as much as possible if they are not affecting other people, if they are a menace to someone else they should, obviously, be removed to some place.

PPS: see you private messages for some more information.