Palestine vs Israel - The Scoreboard

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posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by openminded2011
 


Show me in the OP where i was not objective and where did i mention palestine were innocent?

Please, think before you post at least otherwise i waste my time repeating myself.

You're not being object with your post, some palestinians may do that, i will ADMIT. out of desperation

now YOU admit that Israel is commiting genocide?

It works both ways. This is real truth for you.




posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:27 AM
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I think it's funny when people claim of imbalanced retaliation by Israel when Hamas is launching pretty much everything it has while Israel uses guided bombs and more or less using ammunition that compared with other things they have, it barely touches the surface.
reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 


What else do you want israel to use against civilians that they havent already used, that could do more damage? a Nuclear bomb?.....they are already using a wealth of strategic advantages, including bombing media centres so they can prevent any news coming out of Gaza......F-16s is more than enough against a people with NO air defence and NO aircraft to match that.

Are you really that blind, that you cant see imbalanced when it hits you in the face like this?

Imagine america taking over madagascar, would that be an equal match?

Well America is Israels best buddy too, they send them weapons, funding, and IRON DOME!

The technology

online.wsj.com...

The money

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The weapons

www.ynetnews.com...




If Hamas had anything larger than what they do they won't hesitate to use it. Seeing as they don't even recognize Israel's right to exist (it's right in their charters) it shouldn't be such a hassle reaching that conclusion.


Oh really, its not a HASSLE to reach that conclusion? how long have you been following middle eastern issues? do you think you can solve it tommorow? we can just retire tony blair and you can take his possition as middle east envoy! because according to you the situation is real simple,recognize israel as a state and its right to exist, and stop firing rockets.....

Why do i bother replying?, educate yourself on the issue please, preferbally from both sides of the conflict and members want ME to be objective?

I never said israel shouldnt exist, but it need to stop expanding beyond its borders, because all palestine have left is the west bank and gaza and thats not LEGAL, they have more land than that. Israel are making illegal settlements, DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT FACT?

www.aljazeera.com...

this link shows repeated american attempts to veto the prevention of those illegal settlements, arent America and Israel strong allies???....do you see the strong pattern here?, palestine doesnt have any buddies on the United nations security council to give them such favours .....how EXTREMELY fair is that!



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:31 AM
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Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
reply to post by hellobruce
 


I mentioned F-16 carpet bombing because ive seen the videos on youtube and media outlets where entire structures are bombed to kingdom come in densley civilian populations.


That's not carpet bombing. That's bombing.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 





Furthermore, it's mind numbingly odd that people seem to forget where Hamas operates from. When you operate from within civilian population you guarantee that Civilian will be killed - specially when 'operating from within civilian population' means shooting from neighborhoods, using completely civilian homes as ammo stocks and hidings etc. I can't see where Israel is at fault when Hamas shoots from an apartment that houses a civilian family and Israel strikes back


I KNOW why you cant see why israel is at fault, because your obviously so Pro- israeli judging by the ignorance in your post, that its unthinkable to assume israel has made a mistake....the mighty israel! gods chosen people dont make mistakes they are angel hybrids, but they need f-16s to fly in the air !

If Hamas.....a democratically elected GOVERNMENT officially by the palestinian civilian population....where to operate away from civilian populations.....ISRAEL would BLOW THEM UP IN ONE DAY.....that is akin to regime change on the worst possible scale, then Israel would be guilty of wiping out the palestinian governement.

SECONDLY, hamas have to operare in civilian locations because their LAND is literally SHRINKING, by the day because israel love to gobble up more land, so where do you want hamas to go? go on google images and look where gaza and the west bank is compared to israel and tell me they have a whole load of places to operate from? educate yourself please.




If you truly wished to remain neutral and truly are a 'truth seeker' as your handle suggest, you'd take into consideration the efforts of either side to avoid civilian casualties. Israel: Using guided bombs that cause minimum surrounding damage, dropping leaflets warning people where and when are the coming airstrikes are going to be held, never operating from civilian population. Hamas: Investing their entire efforts in Civilian casualties, using blind rockets, operating from civilian population.


Im glad you can read my handle, it shows you have some skill. Well the truth has showed me that Palestine only have unguided rockets because they are severley technologically challenged compared to israel who has Iron dome,dont worry its doing a FINE job indeed.

Israel is using guided bombs, but they blow up media centres, and civilian homes, and plenty of women and children, yes they are guided bombs, civilian guided.

Dropping leaflets means nothing, i can drop a leaflet on your home saying get out because im going to rob your house tommorow? some people wouldnt leave because its their home....heck if they had a brain they would get a gun and protect themselves or call the police.....hamas have got the guns....but theres no police to help them because the UN is controlled by American attemptes to veto any prevention of Israeli genocide and illegal settlements.

SO lets summarise for all those who think this is a balanced conflict.

- Israel has more money, bigger military expenditure
- Israel has more armaments, better technology
- israel has far bigger numbers of military assests (sorties/tanks/soldiers)
- israel have farmore tactical advantages ( multitude of weapons delivery systems, air superioirty, naval superiority,ground superiority, nuclear advantage)
- Israel can shut of the internet, power, and communication. They can also Bomb media centres.
- Israel have plenty of strong allies in the UN, who can lets them do as they wish no matter how illegal it is.
- Israel can prevent any AID or WEAPONS sent into gaza by its allies or people that care about them.

such as the flotilla incident where Israel killed turkish nationals on a ship with aid bound for gaza.

Israel prevent iran sending weapons to help gaza protect themselves against ALL of the above.

I can go ON and ON .
edit on 22-11-2012 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by khimbar
 


its the equivalent of carpet bombing, though,bombing would mean bombing military assests from the air,

but instead the bombs are landing on civilian homes, media centres, news reports, women, children.

Doesnt sound like bombing to me...in the military sense? oh unless israels military agenda is to do just that


And its nice of you at picking certain points you have a quarrel with in this thread yet denying the rest of the truth and points i mentioned.

Very ignorant.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 10:48 AM
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''Let's get some points straight for the sake of history.

The series of suicide bombers from Palestine did not begin until Israel invaded Palestinian lands, killing and maiming people and destroying water, electrical and hospital works. All of this is illegal under international law.

Yes, some Palestinians did commit moral crimes by attacking civilians. This was bad, but they used the only major weapon they had, their bodies as human bombs. Remember, Israel has, as gifts from America, F15s, F16s, Abrams Tanks, Apache and Blackhawk Helicopters which they use, on a daily basis, to kill and maim Palestinians.

How is it that an Israeli death is worse than the death of 30 or more Palestinians? That's what's going on. How can this be alled - "defending Israel" when Israel is the one doing the major killings and maimings?''

Source - rense.com... GOOD READ!
edit on 22-11-2012 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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i read thread after thread on this continuous war or righteousness .. am i really the only one that can see that there are good and bad on both sides clearly and BOTH are attacking eachother ("in the name of defence" ..please have some respect for peoples intelligence)... therefore neither is right? and the simple reason the figures of death are lob sided is because the Israelis have a more powerful means of attack. If it was the other way round the figures would reflect that. BOTH are in the wrong ... as i said before blinded by history and different coloured cotton/polyester !!!



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
The series of suicide bombers from Palestine did not begin until Israel invaded Palestinian lands, killing and maiming people and destroying water, electrical and hospital works. All of this is illegal under international law.


By the same extent you can argue that Israel did not occupy Palestinian lands until the Palestinians and their Arab allies tried to destroy any trace of Israel and its people. Many don't realize that in 1948, the Arab alliance did come very close to their goal. Their stated intention was to obliterate the state of Israel. The reason many Palestinians left their homes and went to Jordan and Lebanon, is because they got a warning from the Arab countries to temporarily leave, so that they would not get in the way of the invasion and slaughter that was to follow. Needless to say, after Israel beat them back (and back then Israel's military was far weaker than the opponent), they did not let some of the Palestinians come back.

And again in 1973, a much stronger Arab alliance tried to invade Israel with the stated goal of "pushing them out to sea". After that, Israel got a clear message that the Arabs will not stop their attempts, and if Israel is to survive it needs to ensure that it has a buffer zone to protect themselves.

It was Palestinians who failed in multiple attempts to invade Israel, partly due to military incompetence of Arabs, and partly due to greed. Israel on the other hand could have wiped them out once and for all in 1973, and kick them out of Gaza and West Bank - but it held back.



Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Yes, some Palestinians did commit moral crimes by attacking civilians. This was bad, but they used the only major weapon they had, their bodies as human bombs.


Before 1960's, Palestinians and their Arab allies had far better military equipment at their disposal than Israel. They used it unsuccessfully to try to invade Israel.



Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Remember, Israel has, as gifts from America, F15s, F16s, Abrams Tanks, Apache and Blackhawk Helicopters which they use, on a daily basis, to kill and maim Palestinians..


And Palestinians and Arabs had similar gifts from UK in 1948, and from the Soviet Union after 1950's.

Seriously - don't pretend like there is no history to this before 2006. Palestinians had their chance to be a full pledged fully-armed state. They squandered it by focusing their efforts on destroying Israel. Israel won, and instituted measures to ensure the Palestinians do not achieve their goal of destroying Israel.



Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
How is it that an Israeli death is worse than the death of 30 or more Palestinians? That's what's going on. How can this be alled - "defending Israel" when Israel is the one doing the major killings and maimings?''


US lost about 3,000 on 9/11. Subsequent wars resulted in at least tens of thousands of civilian deaths. US lost several thousand in Pearl Harbor. The resulting war resulted in hunderds of thousands of Japanese civilian deaths. UK lost several thousand in the Battle for Britain, and the resulting carpet bombing campaigns killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Germany.

War is all about disproportional responses. You can't judge sides solely by how many people die. Nothing warranted the rocket attacks on Israel before Nov. 13 2012. They were unprovoked. What would you suggest Israel do? It is not about how many people they killed, but about how many people they intended to kill and how many people had their lives distrupted by the terror.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by mrjoones
 


But it is NOT the other way round so you can only ASSSUME the figures would be turned around, i on the other hands have proof that Israel is being inhumane due to the death count in each conflict over the years, because they have the upper hand in terms of military.

Im tired of of trying to convince others of the truths, if they dont want to see it, i couldnt care less.They cant change anything anymore than i can. I simply made this thread for others who are still unaware....to make their own judements.

And im sure its succeeding, but the same old pro-israeli's will come and hijack this thread.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
its the equivalent of carpet bombing, though,bombing would mean bombing military assests from the air,

but instead the bombs are landing on civilian homes, media centres, news reports, women, children.


Hama's military assets are strategically positioned near civilian homes, media centers, hospitals, and mosques. 90% of munitions used by Israel are guided weapons. Carpet bombing is not done with guided weapons - they are too expensive and serve a different purpose.

If Israel really did "carpet bomb" Gaza for a week, you would see approximately 50,000 - 100,000 deaths based on the civilian concentration in Gaza. The last conflict where carpet bombing campaigns were used was Iran-Iraq war, and perhaps the Second Chechen war. That is about it. I have been to Grozny about 5 years after the war, and even then it looked far worse than even the most targeted sections of Gaza. You have no idea what carpet bombing really is.




Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Very ignorant.


Unlike you right? You are of examplary high intelligence and moral stature, that is demonstrated by calling others ignorant.
edit on 22-11-2012 by maloy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by maloy
 


Your mentioning some irrelvant material, this thread has nothing to do with 9/11 further more i dont see the need to continue discussing this any further with you, refer to our last discussion for full details.


Just because you have 'seen things' in chechnya, doesnt give you the right to denounce or even the right to COMPARE other conlifcts and genocides around the world maloy.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So keep your bias to yourself, if you want to take sides.

And continue falsifying the truth
edit on 22-11-2012 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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Here are two quotes by Prof. Chomsky in regards to Israel-Palestine. From the transcript of documentary Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land.

Transcript



Prof. Noam Chomsky: When Israel, in the occupied territories now, claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population that they're crushing.

Prof. Noam Chomsky: You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying somebody else's land. It's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Your mentioning some irrelvant material


No you mention some irrelevant material.

See, two can play this game.



Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
this thread has nothing to do with 9/11 further more i dont see the need to continue discussing this any further with you, refer to our last discussion for full details.


If you don't see the need, why are you replying to my posts? I see the need, and I do as I please.



Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
Just because you have 'seen things' in chechnya, doesnt give you the right to denounce or even the right to COMPARE other conlifcts and genocides around the world maloy.


I have traveled to Israel, including West Bank, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Sinai. I have seen plenty to shape my view of things. I have met plenty of local people on sides of the spectrum. I have Palestinian friends in Jerusalem (we know better than to discuss politics with each other). I have every right to compare conflicts as I see fit. And I hardly see how you can be a judge of what rights I do and do not have.



Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
So keep your bias to yourself, if you want to take sides.


Keep my bias to myself, and let you spout your bias off uncircumvented? HAHAHA. I think not buddy. Try again.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by roblot
Here are two quotes by Prof. Chomsky in regards to Israel-Palestine.


Chomsky is hardly a neutral person. His bias and agenda is in plain sight.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
What else do you want israel to use against civilians that they havent already used, that could do more damage? a Nuclear bomb?.....they are already using a wealth of strategic advantages, including bombing media centres so they can prevent any news coming out of Gaza......F-16s is more than enough against a people with NO air defence and NO aircraft to match that.

None of that made any sense regarding what I was saying so I'll wait for you to be abit more clear.
As for bombing the news station, I wouldn't rush to call it an evil Israeli act of terror to prevent news from coming out of Gaza before looking into the facts. Hmm.. News station... Hamas... where have I heard the same two words together... Ah.

That's from the last OP. I wouldn't put it past Hamas to try that stuff again, seeing as they already pulled this one off: (from this OP)
Hamas sprays "TV" on top of his car to confuse between him and journalists



Imagine america taking over madagascar, would that be an equal match?

Wtf does equal match has to do with anything?
If you're so concerned about Hamas not being an equal match I suggest you advise them to stop launching rockets.. ?


Oh really, its not a HASSLE to reach that conclusion? how long have you been following middle eastern issues? do you think you can solve it tommorow? we can just retire tony blair and you can take his possition as middle east envoy! because according to you the situation is real simple,recognize israel as a state and its right to exist, and stop firing rockets.....

Apparently you've got reading issues.
I clearly said: "If Hamas had anything larger than what they do they won't hesitate to use it. Seeing as they don't even recognize Israel's right to exist (it's right in their charters) it shouldn't be such a hassle reaching that conclusion.
As in, reaching the conclusion that they'd shoot anything they've got at Israel.

I was mentioning that in order to put some balance in your silly graph that clearly isn't out there to just display facts, but to portray Israel as the evil villains.

I will repeat. If Hamas had anything bigger, they would shoot it at Israel. One does not have to wonder if they'll do it since they are already shooting anything they have at random direction, plus the fact that they've got that little thing in their charters that states they do not recognize Israel's right to exist.


Why do i bother replying?, educate yourself on the issue please, preferbally from both sides of the conflict and members want ME to be objective?

Surprise, people want you to be objective. And please take your own advice. Thanks.


I never said israel shouldnt exist

I never said you did. I said Hamas did. Are you even trying?


Israel are making illegal settlements, DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT FACT?

Nope.
Does that mean I agree with electing a terrorist organization to take care of things? Nah.
Does that mean I'm going to support a clearly biased graph that supposed to compare things evenly? Nope.

If you tried making a graph with, say.. "Attempted hits at civilian population", or "Operating from civilian population" it would portray the truth alittle better.

Also, should I be amused by the fact that Hamas is not a UN signatory therefore cannot be handed resolutions? Is the fact that this little thing on the graph supposed to make me laugh or should I simply realize it was made by an angry 15 year old at best? Probably the latter.
edit on 22-11-2012 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by ISeekTruth101
 


I'm wondering what the outcome would be if the roles where reversed. I'm not taking sides but i thinks it would be much of the same.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by roblot
Here are two quotes by Prof. Chomsky in regards to Israel-Palestine.


Chomsky is hardly a neutral person. His bias and agenda is in plain sight.


Please, enlighten me as to what his agenda may be?



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by roblot

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by roblot
Here are two quotes by Prof. Chomsky in regards to Israel-Palestine.


Chomsky is hardly a neutral person. His bias and agenda is in plain sight.


Please, enlighten me as to what his agenda may be?


He is a self-prescribed libertarian socialist, leaning very heavily to the extreme left spectrum in majority of his views. He can also be described as anarchistic and anti-interventionist. He is also conflicted in that he is fiercely anti-establishment and yet a big proponent of welfare state.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 12:43 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 





Was the bombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki disproportionate response? Was the fire bombing of Dresden disproportionate response? Was the invasion of Germany in 1944 disproportionate response? What about Britain's involvement in Falklands? Or US involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq?


Bravo, you just justified every single terrorist attack against Israel by Palestinians. Besides the fact that your examples are countries who were, in fact, military powers. Care to point out Gaza's military? Daily rocket barrages? I think you might want to go get the actual numbers on that buddy, because not even the most hardcore zionist news sites won't try to make that claim.

But there you have it. You have 1 country, the 15th or 16th richest in the world, one of the most advanced and capable armies on earth, and a bunch of people fenced into a ghetto with home made bottle rockets and ak47s. One nation is occupying the other. So, lets be clear. If you were a palestinian, you would have every right to fight against the agression and crimes being done there, the stealing of land, the illegal settlements. Under your example, they are allowed to not only attack civilian targets (Dresden,Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasak are all civilian cities. Sure, there's a military aspect when you consider the industry that actually builds the war machine, but none the less, they were attacks against civilians designed to instill TERROR)

So maybe you should try to fully grasp your own opinion before you actually justify what you are here to argue against.

Everyone take note, go read the OP again, then read SeaBags reply. This is the tactic. You immediate support terrorism if you don't support ISrael. If you dare show the actual reported numbers, not at all inferring that one side is innocent with no blood on their hands, you are immediately saying every terrorist is innocent. It's a scam and derailment tactic, don't fall for it.

Every terrorist is a criminal. Both sides are full of criminals committing crimes. One nation is occupying the other to "protect itself" while the occupied nation is fighting an occupation it considers illegal. Only one of those groups is equipped with state of the art military gear and claims to be the most moral army in the world.

The attacks against ISrael are crimes, and ISrael has every right to defend itself. But you have to consider the reason for the attacks.

Sure if we listen to half the people here, it's because every brown person just hates Jews and wants them all dead.

But, instead, if we listen to those who are the ones being drawn towards terror, it's Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the occupation of gaza.

anyone demanding Israel dissolve is a moron. Anyone demanding to reinstate the original borders of Palestine is a fool.

Anyone thinking you can fight terror by creating terror, that person is a mad man.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 




I have traveled to Israel, including West Bank, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Sinai. I have seen plenty to shape my view of things. I have met plenty of local people on sides of the spectrum. I have Palestinian friends in Jerusalem (we know better than to discuss politics with each other). I have every right to compare conflicts as I see fit. And I hardly see how you can be a judge of what rights I do and do not have.


- I Highly doubt you have been to west bank, and i highly doubt you have many palestinian friends.

- I have a right to voice my doubts

- I just did

- Although the above are not a facts, i did urge you very early in the thread to stay on topic and discuss facts and figures, instead you continued to derail the topic further by talking about your past experiences.

prompting me to reply, and entertain your theories for the sake argument.

- Wont be wasting my time anymore.

edit on 22-11-2012 by ISeekTruth101 because: (no reason given)





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