a question for devout Christians

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posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

LOL. I haven't changed my answer, you merely refuse to understand it.



Thank you for FINALLY responding to the question. Now, it is YOU that do not understand where YOU are coming from. lol If they, too, will be judged by their hearts, and if they fully believe that their atrocious acts are doing god's work, then by your belief they'll go to heaven, right? Think of all the bloodshed in the middle east. These people believe a THOUSAND PERCENT in their hearts that they are doing god's work.


You are judged in the same way you judge others. Why can you not understand that? Your hypothetical terrorist kills people so that he can be saved. He judges others as unworthy and he will be judged the same way, as unworthy. You wish to judge people by the acts and that is how you will be judged. Perhaps you are perfect; but, somehow I doubt it. I have not met a perfect person yet. We are forgiven as we forgive others.



That is really funny because you refuse to see the conflict in your own beliefs. But, I guess that's why the religious hold firmly to faith instead of fact - it allows them to believe in the most illogical ideals and still think it makes perfect sense. Ah well, have a good night.




posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

No conflict, it is very simple. Doing something so you can get into heaven does not get you salvation. You have to really care about others. It is not some silly game where you win by beating out others. You are not saved by works; but, if you are saved it will show in your works. As you do not state what you believe, it is difficult to know what assumptions you are making and I gave up mind reading a long time ago.



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 02:54 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 

. . . if you are saved it will show in your works.

According to some kind of predestination?
People who do good works were chosen at creation to be that way?
Is there any hope for anyone else?
If we are not doing works, are we doomed to hell?



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by AQuestion
 

. . . if you are saved it will show in your works.

According to some kind of predestination?
People who do good works were chosen at creation to be that way?
Is there any hope for anyone else?
If we are not doing works, are we doomed to hell?


Dear jmdewy60,

ROFL. What are you asking me and why? I don't believe in predestination, I believe in choices and we do choose. There is hope for everyone, make choices that show that you care as much about others as yourself. If you truly care about others, why would you not help them? The word doomed is so funny, if you make a choice to care only about you or to allow to be harmed so that you can be better off and the consequence is that you must pay for that, are you doomed? It is a choice and all choices have consequences. Be selfish, if that is what you wish and don't whine if there are consequences. We are judged as we judge others, if we do not care about anyone but ourselves, eventually that is all we have. That is hell, an eternity of being alone because we choose to be all, to be God.



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 03:23 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

No conflict, it is very simple. Doing something so you can get into heaven does not get you salvation. You have to really care about others. It is not some silly game where you win by beating out others. You are not saved by works; but, if you are saved it will show in your works. As you do not state what you believe, it is difficult to know what assumptions you are making and I gave up mind reading a long time ago.


My assumption is that some people are born with a chemical make-up that makes them more selfish, easy to anger, and all around NOT a people person. Some are born with diseases, such as schizophrenia, or are subject to extreme narcissism. How fair would it be for these people to be judged for what is in their heart?

You make a blanket statement that you believe all people are judged by what is in their heart. I am stating that you don't really believe this - no one should. Due to chemical responses in the brain, and based on our diet and current situation in life, what is in our hearts one day could be very different from the next day. No, you don't want to be judged by what's in your heart.



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 03:44 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Simple, you are not a believer in free will or taking responsibility for your actions. We disagree.



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Simple, you are not a believer in free will or taking responsibility for your actions. We disagree.


Now there you go again with wrong thinking. As an atheist all I do believe in is free will and taking responsibility for my actions. We have to choose to cooperate with each other, as in, I don't steal from you - you don't steal from me. This is our one and only life, so atheists don't want to end up in prison or die in a war.

You (as in all religious) on the other hand, believe in a grand design, God's plan, God's will. Through this belief YOU have no Free Will. God already knows your path, so you couldn't change it if you got the whole world to pray for you. You either follow God's law or suffer eternal damnation - this is not Free Will.

You don't have to be responsible for your actions because you believe you can dump all of your sins onto someone else - Jesus. This is called scapegoating. In ancient times villages used to dump all of their sins onto a goat and send it out into the desert to die. This is where the idea of Jesus dying for our sins was fabricated. Atheists must always live with their mistakes.



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 06:19 AM
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“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha.



posted on Nov, 25 2012 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 

What are you asking me and why?
You made a statement, "You are not saved by works; but, if you are saved it will show in your works." I was wondering what you meant by it. What does this word "saved" mean, and how does one come into that condition. I would think that being saved would be conditioned on good works, if by "saved" you mean going to heaven after you die.
Maybe your use of the term, "saved" means something else, since you seem to be saying by context that you can be in a state of "saved" before you die, since you have the option of doing good works or not.
Is being "saved" a condition one can be in based on their belief in Jesus as Lord? I think it can, and you see it being used in that way in the New Testament, that we are sanctified by being separated from the sinful world, and placed in a spiritual kingdom that was won by Jesus' works on earth, including his preaching, healing, death and resurrection and ascension into heaven in glory. Paul speaks of our duty in this life to work towards our own glorification, which I have to take as our joining Jesus in heaven. So it seems to me that the type of being ultimately "saved" would be exactly based on works, but the work of God's spirit in us that Jesus gives us, which we go along with by faith in our lives as they are now on this earth.
edit on 25-11-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Simple, you are not a believer in free will or taking responsibility for your actions. We disagree.


Now there you go again with wrong thinking. As an atheist all I do believe in is free will and taking responsibility for my actions. We have to choose to cooperate with each other, as in, I don't steal from you - you don't steal from me. This is our one and only life, so atheists don't want to end up in prison or die in a war.

You (as in all religious) on the other hand, believe in a grand design, God's plan, God's will. Through this belief YOU have no Free Will. God already knows your path, so you couldn't change it if you got the whole world to pray for you. You either follow God's law or suffer eternal damnation - this is not Free Will.

You don't have to be responsible for your actions because you believe you can dump all of your sins onto someone else - Jesus. This is called scapegoating. In ancient times villages used to dump all of their sins onto a goat and send it out into the desert to die. This is where the idea of Jesus dying for our sins was fabricated. Atheists must always live with their mistakes.



Dear jiggerj,



My assumption is that some people are born with a chemical make-up that makes them more selfish, easy to anger, and all around NOT a people person. Some are born with diseases, such as schizophrenia, or are subject to extreme narcissism. How fair would it be for these people to be judged for what is in their heart?


Those are your words in the quote. You are claiming they cannot help themselves. At least take responsibility for your words. You state



You (as in all religious) on the other hand, believe in a grand design, God's plan, God's will. Through this belief YOU have no Free Will. God already knows your path, so you couldn't change it if you got the whole world to pray for you. You either follow God's law or suffer eternal damnation - this is not Free Will.


Thank yo for telling me what ALL religious people including myself believe, rather than asking me the question. You continue to lose any credibility.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by AQuestion
 

What are you asking me and why?
You made a statement, "You are not saved by works; but, if you are saved it will show in your works." I was wondering what you meant by it. What does this word "saved" mean, and how does one come into that condition. I would think that being saved would be conditioned on good works, if by "saved" you mean going to heaven after you die.
Maybe your use of the term, "saved" means something else, since you seem to be saying by context that you can be in a state of "saved" before you die, since you have the option of doing good works or not.
Is being "saved" a condition one can be in based on their belief in Jesus as Lord? I think it can, and you see it being used in that way in the New Testament, that we are sanctified by being separated from the sinful world, and placed in a spiritual kingdom that was won by Jesus' works on earth, including his preaching, healing, death and resurrection and ascension into heaven in glory. Paul speaks of our duty in this life to work towards our own glorification, which I have to take as our joining Jesus in heaven. So it seems to me that the type of being ultimately "saved" would be exactly based on works, but the work of God's spirit in us that Jesus gives us, which we go along with by faith in our lives as they are now on this earth.
edit on 25-11-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19


Dear jmdewey60,

In a Christian context, saved means not being judged by your works, it means grace. Another way to look at it is that we are forgiven as we forgive others, just like Jesus said. He also says not to worry about the speck in your brothers eye but to remove the log from your own. Now, unless we are to take it literally that our brother has a log in his eye, he must be referring to condemning people for not acting perfectly.

Maybe my answer will help you with your other question. Yes, if you forgive everyone then you have met the criteria for being saved while still living and continuing to be imperfect. Paul said he was the greatest sinner of all, Moses was kept from going into Israel because he sinned, yet, he was "saved".



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion



You (as in all religious) on the other hand, believe in a grand design, God's plan, God's will. Through this belief YOU have no Free Will. God already knows your path, so you couldn't change it if you got the whole world to pray for you. You either follow God's law or suffer eternal damnation - this is not Free Will.


Thank yo for telling me what ALL religious people including myself believe, rather than asking me the question. You continue to lose any credibility.


LOL You're welcome. If you don't believe god's will and his divine plan, then I don't know what kind of a god you're believing in - it's certainly not the christian one.

I wonder if this is part of the religious disease. In religious vs. atheist debates every devout christian either starts spewing more and more of the illogical or they ignore the topic altogether and turn against the atheist opponent. And since your belief is based on unprovable faith, you never had credibility to start with.
edit on 11/27/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 10:24 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Again, thank you for telling me what I believe and what it makes me, rather than asking me the same. All knowledge must begin and end with you including the ability to read minds. Don't be afraid of letting people tell you what they believe.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Again, thank you for telling me what I believe and what it makes me, rather than asking me the same. All knowledge must begin and end with you including the ability to read minds. Don't be afraid of letting people tell you what they believe.


There ya go. Keep derailing the topic by making it personal. That's what you people ALWAYS DO!



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

LOL. Really.



There ya go. Keep derailing the topic by making it personal. That's what you people ALWAYS DO!


You directed your last post specifically at me. The last four words of the above quote describe you, you mention "you people" and "ALWAYS DO". Those are the words that are usually used eventually by true bigots.



posted on Nov, 27 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

LOL. Really.



There ya go. Keep derailing the topic by making it personal. That's what you people ALWAYS DO!


You directed your last post specifically at me. The last four words of the above quote describe you, you mention "you people" and "ALWAYS DO". Those are the words that are usually used eventually by true bigots.


You've fallen so far away from the topic. This is the end.



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:25 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 

In a Christian context, saved means not being judged by your works, it means grace.
That sounds to me like a modern pop-culture religion context.
The "grace" part is being considered for salvation, that and given the ability to believe in the Gospel. This is according to what the Bible tells me, that, and that we are judged by our works.

Another way to look at it is that we are forgiven as we forgive others, just like Jesus said. He also says not to worry about the speck in your brothers eye but to remove the log from your own. Now, unless we are to take it literally that our brother has a log in his eye, he must be referring to condemning people for not acting perfectly.
Jesus said 'first take the larger piece out of your eye'. What he did not say was to not criticize the other person at all, but to deal with your own imperfection before pointing out the other person's.

Maybe my answer will help you with your other question. Yes, if you forgive everyone then you have met the criteria for being saved while still living and continuing to be imperfect. Paul said he was the greatest sinner of all, Moses was kept from going into Israel because he sinned, yet, he was "saved".
So then, according to this, we are judged by our works, in this case, how we judge others.
edit on 28-11-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Mrgone

The visuals must have really helped with the old testament. Cause no one wants to admit that the ot was like reading an acid trip described by hunter s. Thompson


Consider that you and I are sitting on a hill, overlooking our two houses and our children and wives, playing together and having a good time; our friends are with them. I say to you, "Look, our children are like stars shining brightly, aren't they? And our faithful wives- they're pleasant flowers planted in a garden. And our friends; like oak trees in their support of our endeavors. Truly our houses are mountains of happiness, and the trees of our families produce the pleasant fruits of peace." And you nod.

Then one day you're at the market, amongst a group of sellers and buyers; and I show up and stop and say, "Listen to me! I saw the heavens shaking, and the stars went dark! I saw them falling from the heavens! Listen to me, I saw the oak trees, all of them withering away; and the pleasant garden became barren! I saw the flowers rise up against one another, and I saw thorns choking them and the flower faded! Listen to me; I looked and saw the mountains shaking, and a fire broke forth from the garden and it struck the mountains and the mountains collapsed! I saw the fruit of the trees, and, it was rotten fruit! We must return to the garden and tend the flowers and see this thing does not come to pass!" And then I leave.

Okay, so, everyone standing around says, "What on earth is he talking about?" "Lol no kidding he must be on acid or something!" Then someone jumps up and shouts, "Wait! The "stars falling"! That sounds like nuclear warheads entering the atmosphere! OMG there's going to be nuclear holocaust!" then another "It's an asteroid! What else could he have meant by falling mountains on fire?! AN ASTEROID IS COMING AN ASTEROID IS COMING!"

Then the next week you show up and there's people everywhere. Guys are standing on boxes crying, "The nuclear holocaust is upon you, I have heard it so said! You are all doomed!" another stands saying, "Yea, the country of America, that fertile garden shall be consumed by the asteroid strike to come!" and another "You people are so wicked you all deserve this! YOU BROUGHT THIS UPON US NOT ME! I'M A GOOD PERSON, YOU'RE AT FAULT HERE! REPENT YOU SINNERS BELIEVE ME and REPENT!" and another "There is an escape from this calamity, if only you believe my teachings you will fly away home in yon heaven and the asteroid will not get you! You must believe me, though, or prepare for CERTAIN DOOM!" and everyone in the market is confused and anxious and crying "What does it all mean? What does it all mean?"

But you know something they don't. You have a communicative frame of reference that they don't have. My words are clear to you. You just shake your head and laugh- it's all you can do. As much as you try to tell people, "You're just misunderstanding; he was talking to me, not you" they just won't listen. It's chaos. All because of their own state of confusion and perpetuation of their own misunderstandings. You see?

This is your reality. This is your understanding. This is your confusion. All a product of your own misunderstandings of a message not meant for you. (or, was it?)
edit on 28-11-2012 by MrCobb because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 28 2012 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Dear jmdewey60,

I am sorry that the term grace sounds like pop religion to you. Perhaps you can give us another definition for what grace means.



posted on Nov, 29 2012 @ 02:27 AM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 

I am sorry that the term grace sounds like pop religion to you. Perhaps you can give us another definition for what grace means.
Another . . compared to what?
You didn't give one that I noticed.
What I mean that sounds like modern pop-culture religion is the sentence structure where you hang that word, grace, out there as an appendage, as if people are supposed to automatically pick up on its meaning, to insert their own, whatever they like, maybe being saved as in a guaranteed free ticket on the next outgoing transport.
edit on 29-11-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19





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