a question for devout Christians

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posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by Mrgone
 


I read the bible cover to cover, i think, first when I was a little kid with all the nice colorful pictures. I actually enjoyed reading the bible at that young age.




posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by DelayedChristmas
 




The visuals must have really helped with the old testament. Cause no one wants to admit that the ot was like reading an acid trip described by hunter s. Thompson



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by Awen24
 





If the Bible is the Word of God, it should be consistent in all things; correct on all things; without error and without fault... as it was given. One thing we do run into issues with is the fact that... most of us don't speak ancient Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. That automatically disqualifies us from reading "first hand" from the Bible, and introduces a margin of error, which translators are always working to eliminate as much as possible.


Not fighting, I just want to point this out. If the bible was, as you put it, "God-breathed" then the intention of the perfect god was to leave a perfect message. A message that would stand the test of time and translation. In any human communication we can say that meanings can sometimes get funky and vague, but this is GOD we're talking about. His "God-breathed" messages in the bible would be perfectly clear and irrefutable to EVERYONE ON THE PLANET.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by Mrgone
 


Dear Mrgone,



This is the gist of my point. You "believe". One you've made your mind up it is hard to change it. Most have shown that once they make their mind up they will cling hard to ideas that reinforce their beliefs. And deny most of what contradicts their beliefs. The ego is funny that way Thanks to you.


I guess I am confused, in your OP you said.



And just so you understand my position. This isn't a"witch hunt". I'm just curious to know if you've read it all the way through, what religion you are, and what you believe?


Well, clearly you were not sincere in your OP as your most recent response shows. Perhaps if you would have asked what you really meant in the beginning you would have gotten a more responsive answer. As for your accusation that I am unwilling to reconsider my beliefs, that is simply untrue. That is one of the reasons I come to ATS, to test my beliefs. Perhaps in the end it is you who are unwilling to reconsider your positions. You read the bible as a kid once, that is not much of an investigation.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


Both good points
I am not intending to be inconsistent or misleading. Based on your statement I believe I missed my original post and you feel a bit put off by my return response.

Of course, the only responses that I received are from those who can admit that they have read the bible cover to cover. I really should have thought the audience through a little better. My original question was based on a conversation a friend and I were having. She's Irish catholic. We spar over belief and came to the same question of how many of our respected friends who claim to be Christians based their arguments on"belief" and how many use scripture to back it. And how much of the bible knowledge does one allow in a conversation before you realize that you are speaking to a "devout" who's mind has already been made up.

I admit that most of the responders say that they have read the bible more than I. That was part of the question. But the inconsistencies regarding the bible's validity has also been addressed by some who claim to know it's origin to be authentic was more of my intended direction with the original post. Also, those who say that any proof of the bible being written by the hands of man has no baring on their faith don't address the fact that faith is truely what they cling to. Not Christianity

I knew this was going to be a beating when I started. And in the spirit of accepting all responses..thank you for your honest input.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Mrgone
reply to post by AQuestion
 


Both good points
I am not intending to be inconsistent or misleading. Based on your statement I believe I missed my original post and you feel a bit put off by my return response.

Of course, the only responses that I received are from those who can admit that they have read the bible cover to cover. I really should have thought the audience through a little better. My original question was based on a conversation a friend and I were having. She's Irish catholic. We spar over belief and came to the same question of how many of our respected friends who claim to be Christians based their arguments on"belief" and how many use scripture to back it. And how much of the bible knowledge does one allow in a conversation before you realize that you are speaking to a "devout" who's mind has already been made up.

I admit that most of the responders say that they have read the bible more than I. That was part of the question. But the inconsistencies regarding the bible's validity has also been addressed by some who claim to know it's origin to be authentic was more of my intended direction with the original post. Also, those who say that any proof of the bible being written by the hands of man has no baring on their faith don't address the fact that faith is truely what they cling to. Not Christianity

I knew this was going to be a beating when I started. And in the spirit of accepting all responses..thank you for your honest input.


Dear Mrgone, you did not miss my original post, you responded to it. I am confused. In either case, As for assertion that people come by faith or the bible alone, that is incorrect. People come to be believers for a myriad of reasons and not all are valid. What you seek to deny is that some make a logical decision that they can back up. I don't think it is logical to believe that a few fishermen got together and convinced people living in Jerusalem that a man had been crucified in their town if he didn't really exist. I find it hard to believe that the bible accurately predicted that it would be spread throughout the whole world (and it is the only religious book that has) and that then there would be a great falling away and people would leave the church (which they are). I find that logic must be used in examining any belief.
edit on 22-11-2012 by AQuestion because: grammer



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,



Not fighting, I just want to point this out. If the bible was, as you put it, "God-breathed" then the intention of the perfect god was to leave a perfect message. A message that would stand the test of time and translation. In any human communication we can say that meanings can sometimes get funky and vague, but this is GOD we're talking about. His "God-breathed" messages in the bible would be perfectly clear and irrefutable to EVERYONE ON THE PLANET.


Firstly, happy Thanksgiving. What if the message is perfect; but, we being human are imperfect and therefore cannot understand it perfectly? Many people seem to think that God has to walk up to them and prove himself in order for them to believe. The truth is that if he did, most people could not handle it. Imagine seeing how imperfect you are as compared to perfection. God's name means "I am", it is also means the universe, all that is. We are all specs within the universe; but, every speck matters and the Universe matters, we all matter. The parts struggle to understand themselves and the universe, the universe sees it all. Peace.



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 



What if the message is perfect; but, we being human are imperfect and therefore cannot understand it perfectly?


LOL Can you hear what you're saying here? The perfect God leaves messages intended for us to understand (else why send the messages), but we can't understand them. If a perfect god could send a message he would make sure everyone on the planet would understand it completely, without any room for doubt of its meaning no matter how intelligent we are or aren't, and no matter what language we speak.

P.S. Happy Turkey Day to you too!
edit on 11/22/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 22 2012 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 



What if the message is perfect; but, we being human are imperfect and therefore cannot understand it perfectly?


LOL Can you hear what you're saying here? The perfect God leaves messages intended for us to understand (else why send the messages), but we can't understand them. If a perfect god could send a message he would make sure everyone on the planet would understand it completely, without any room for doubt of its meaning no matter how intelligent we are or aren't, and no matter what language we speak.

P.S. Happy Turkey Day to you too!
edit on 11/22/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)


Dear jiggerj,

Else why send the messages, lol. Do you think the same today that you did when you were three? Have you not grown? You ask for perfection, that you means that you ask to stop growing. You ask to know it all and be God. Okay.



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 



What if the message is perfect; but, we being human are imperfect and therefore cannot understand it perfectly?


LOL Can you hear what you're saying here? The perfect God leaves messages intended for us to understand (else why send the messages), but we can't understand them. If a perfect god could send a message he would make sure everyone on the planet would understand it completely, without any room for doubt of its meaning no matter how intelligent we are or aren't, and no matter what language we speak.

P.S. Happy Turkey Day to you too!
edit on 11/22/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)


Dear jiggerj,

Else why send the messages, lol. Do you think the same today that you did when you were three? Have you not grown? You ask for perfection, that you means that you ask to stop growing. You ask to know it all and be God. Okay.


This is not about me or what I want. This is about a god communicating through the bible to all of his children. If the messages in the bible aren't timeless, then isn't it time to throw it out? When mankind walked the earth 200,000 years ago, imagine a father telling his children, "Don't play with wild animals."
There is no way anyone can confused this message as meaning 'Let other children play with wild animals', or 'Wild animals eat sinners'. The message would be as relevant and clear today as it was back then. If we can make timeless messages such as this for our children a million years from now, then a god should have no problem doing it too.
edit on 11/23/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 23 2012 @ 11:32 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,



There is no way anyone can confused this message as meaning 'Let other children play with wild animals', or 'Wild animals eat sinners'. The message would be as relevant and clear today as it was back then. If we can make timeless messages such as this for our children a million years from now, then a god should have no problem doing it too.


I have no problem with people not believing in God, believe as you will. That is what free will is all about. I find the old testament fascinating as it tells the story of how we interacted with God. If one thinks about the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, they had God traveling with them and still they chose not to talk to him directly and asked Moses to do it and bring them back laws. At first the laws were simple; but, the people refused to follow them. He gave them more laws and they found ways to meet the word of the law; but, not the intent.

The only thing we need to get right is to love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves, that is a very simple message and yet we manage to screw that up. People can and do read whatever they want into the bible, it does not redefine the bible, it is merely them making choices and defining themselves. People seek clear rules so that they can find their way around doing what they know is right, they seek loopholes. In the end, it is not about rules, it is about what is in your heart, that is what you are judged on.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:45 AM
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In the end, it is not about rules, it is about what is in your heart, that is what you are judged on.
reply to post by AQuestion
 


What if I believe 100% in my heart that the human over-population is going to destroy this planet? If I create some kind of weapon that would kill all but 3 million people, would I be judged as evil even though the quality of life for the survivors would be paradise on earth? What if I believe, with no doubt whatsoever, that this is the right thing to do? What if I believe that I am truly doing god's work?



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 03:51 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Where is all of this hate coming from? I said that we are judged by our hearts, why do you find that offensive? Yes, anyone can be saved. That is what Jesus said. What do you want the unforgivable sin to be? Who do you hate and can we find a sin to be forgiven that blesses us all?



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 05:31 AM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

Where is all of this hate coming from? I said that we are judged by our hearts, why do you find that offensive? Yes, anyone can be saved. That is what Jesus said. What do you want the unforgivable sin to be? Who do you hate and can we find a sin to be forgiven that blesses us all?


Where do you see hate in my posts? I asked a philosophical question. It is you and all of the religious that feel threatened whenever your beliefs or flaws in the bible are questioned. Think about my question. What if Hitler believed with all his heart that he was doing the right thing?

More times than we care to know, bad people actually think they're doing the right thing.




posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,



Where do you see hate in my posts? I asked a philosophical question. It is you and all of the religious that feel threatened whenever your beliefs or flaws in the bible are questioned. Think about my question. What if Hitler believed with all his heart that he was doing the right thing? More times than we care to know, bad people actually think they're doing the right thing.


Clearly you are talking to some fear you have and not me. I am not afraid to defend my beliefs, that is why I am on ATS. You compare all believers in Hitler, pretty biased on your part. I don't compare all non believers to Stalin or Mao. Irrationality, as you express, is based on your bigotry, not mine. I answer your questions and hide from nothing, you make accusations and hide from all questions. Have a great day sunshine.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 10:47 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


yes - if a god had created a message to his creation then he would have made it understandable by all people at all times, so he might have used something universal like maths or perhaps there could be some kind of checking system, for example the moon could flash red and the word TILT appear on it to alert a translator to go back and check his work if he was translating the message and had made a mistake

or to put it another way - an infallible book needs an infallible reader



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,



Where do you see hate in my posts? I asked a philosophical question. It is you and all of the religious that feel threatened whenever your beliefs or flaws in the bible are questioned. Think about my question. What if Hitler believed with all his heart that he was doing the right thing? More times than we care to know, bad people actually think they're doing the right thing.


Clearly you are talking to some fear you have and not me. I am not afraid to defend my beliefs, that is why I am on ATS. You compare all believers in Hitler, pretty biased on your part. I don't compare all non believers to Stalin or Mao. Irrationality, as you express, is based on your bigotry, not mine. I answer your questions and hide from nothing, you make accusations and hide from all questions. Have a great day sunshine.


You didn't answer my completely innocent question at all!

You claim that we are judged by what is in our hearts. What if people believe in their hearts that they are doing the work of god or allah by slamming planes into buildings? Stop trying to make this an argument and see that, apparently, if people believe in a god, they will NOT be judged by what is in their hearts, but by some other measure.

In the words of a Shoalin priest: FOCUS GRASSHOPPER!



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,



You claim that we are judged by what is in our hearts. What if people believe in their hearts that they are doing the work of god or allah by slamming planes into buildings? Stop trying to make this an argument and see that, apparently, if people believe in a god, they will NOT be judged by what is in their hearts, but by some other measure. In the words of a Shoalin priest: FOCUS GRASSHOPPER!


They too will be judged by their hearts. They were willing to kill others to get to heaven, that is called selfishness and for that they will be judged. Please tell me what you believe people are judged by. You clearly do not understand where I am coming from. Many will call his name and he will say that he never knew them. Even demons know the name Jesus; but, that does not give salvation. It is forgiveness that gets forgiveness and true forgiveness is not given out of fear or selfishness.



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,



You claim that we are judged by what is in our hearts. What if people believe in their hearts that they are doing the work of god or allah by slamming planes into buildings? Stop trying to make this an argument and see that, apparently, if people believe in a god, they will NOT be judged by what is in their hearts, but by some other measure. In the words of a Shoalin priest: FOCUS GRASSHOPPER!


They too will be judged by their hearts. They were willing to kill others to get to heaven, that is called selfishness and for that they will be judged. Please tell me what you believe people are judged by. You clearly do not understand where I am coming from. Many will call his name and he will say that he never knew them. Even demons know the name Jesus; but, that does not give salvation. It is forgiveness that gets forgiveness and true forgiveness is not given out of fear or selfishness.


Thank you for FINALLY responding to the question. Now, it is YOU that do not understand where YOU are coming from. lol If they, too, will be judged by their hearts, and if they fully believe that their atrocious acts are doing god's work, then by your belief they'll go to heaven, right? Think of all the bloodshed in the middle east. These people believe a THOUSAND PERCENT in their hearts that they are doing god's work.

Here is another question on the heart.

A man hates people with all his mind, heart, and soul. Someone from a charity asks him for a donation. This man of hate throws a buck at him just to get him out of his face.

Another man is a friendly sort. He never has a bad word to say about anyone. But, when asked for a donation, he kindly states, "Oh no, I fully believe in my heart that giving money to the needy will only teach them to STAY needy. Why work when they can get money for free?"

Now, will these men be judged by their hearts, or by their deeds?



posted on Nov, 24 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Dear jiggerj,

LOL. I haven't changed my answer, you merely refuse to understand it.



Thank you for FINALLY responding to the question. Now, it is YOU that do not understand where YOU are coming from. lol If they, too, will be judged by their hearts, and if they fully believe that their atrocious acts are doing god's work, then by your belief they'll go to heaven, right? Think of all the bloodshed in the middle east. These people believe a THOUSAND PERCENT in their hearts that they are doing god's work.


You are judged in the same way you judge others. Why can you not understand that? Your hypothetical terrorist kills people so that he can be saved. He judges others as unworthy and he will be judged the same way, as unworthy. You wish to judge people by the acts and that is how you will be judged. Perhaps you are perfect; but, somehow I doubt it. I have not met a perfect person yet. We are forgiven as we forgive others.





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