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The logical basis is that undoing of the 1893 illegal occupation might legally necessitate a return to the pre-illegal-occupation government.
Population: 1,374,810 ( as per 2011 est.) (40th)
House Hold Income - $63, 746 (5th)
Island nations do exist. Their economic base has been restructured, but I believe that the islands of Hawaii could survive.
For a government to stand up for rights of it's people, for a government to stand up for the rights of indigenous people in other parts of the globe, yet deny the same rights to people it has oppressed, is morally wrong.
It is hypocritical of the US government to talk of soverign rights of any nation what it has ignored the soverign rights of a people to it's own benefit.
Both opening statements are good. While Beezzer brings forward the morality issue, Tothetenthpower opens with facts. Could Hawaii be self sufficient? Core points for this debate and thus the first round is his.
Beezzer rebounds in the second round with great questions, questions that are equally met with great answers by Tothetenthpower. Brief and solid posts by both debaters. This one is a tie. In the third round, Beezzer comes back with the morality issue but I feel that (as mentioned by his opponent) the claim lacks back up. Without that vital information, it simply becomes a personal opinion. Tothetenthpower also states personal opinions such as “in my view,”, “perhaps”, “I would suggest” making both closing statements interesting but missing the mark in convincing us one way or another, with concrete facts. Both second and third rounds being judged ties, it leaves the first round which favored Tothethenthpower.
This was a good debate but both challengers could have taken advantage of character counts to profit their respective sides. Tothetenthpower wins this debate. But by an inch. Thumbs up to both debaters.
beezzer presents his argument in round one, bringing to our attention the illegal occupation the Hawaiian Islands, and the possibility of their independence. In round two, he furthers his position by stating that trade agreements and Asian markets would allow a thriving Hawaiian economy as an independent nation. He points out several example where this has been successfully accomplished. Round three brings his position full circle by talking about the moral obligations of government, and the necessity to respect the sovereign rights of an independent nation.
tothetenthpower provides his rebuttal in round one by focusing on the financial aspects of independence. His statistics have a nice bite to them, leading to the impression that independence would be fiscally irresponsible. He continues in round two by stating that energy independence among other factors are vital to agreements with other countries, and finishes the round by reminding us that financial agreements may come from sources that are not allies of the United States. In round three he falters a bit in such a closely matched debate by invoking the injustices done to the Native Americans, which lends support to his opponent's position of needing to respect the sovereign rights of independent nations. He does recover nicely by stating that a well established court system handles grievances in a judicial manner.
A debate such as this cannot yield a clear cut winner. Both opponents state their positions well, and argue convincingly, so decisions leading to a winner encompass both the content of the debate, as well as how fluently it is presented. I would call the debate a tie, but barring that inability, I'll pick....
beezzer as the winner, by the narrowest of margins.
I don't think any one of them won but I have to choose, right?
In the final post beezer argues that the natives rights have been ignored. Tothetenthpower responds to this with:
"I would suggest in that case, they invoke state's rights with those issues and challenge them within the already established court system. Contrary to popular belief many issues are adequately resolved via this media".
That, and also Tenths saying that Hawaiians are economically dependent on the U.S. rings overall slightly more true to me than what beezer presented. I think Tenth wins the debate but only ever so slightly.
All in all I think both debaters could have put a little more effort into their debates. This read more like a coffee conversation than a debate.