Particle physicists confirm arrow of time — for B mesons

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posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 09:50 AM

Particle physicists confirm arrow of time — for B mesons

Four years after its closure, researchers working with data from the particle physics experiment BaBar have used the data to make the first direct measurement confirming that time does not run the same forwards as backwards – at least for the B mesons that the experiment produced during its heyday.
(visit the link for the full news article)

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posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 09:50 AM
I expect some may think this is not the standard fair for Breaking Alternative News; but I beg to differ.

In a nutshell, it appears that recently completed analysis of particle physics research has proven a fact - which at the very least seems to be consistent for some matter:

Time has a direction... it moves in a 'direction'... and were it to move relatively backwards... it wouldn't simply 'reverse' what has happened while going forward ... matter would actually 'change' inconsistently and not necessarily conform to what happened "going forward"...

Because of our community's familiarity with alternative subjects and people who figure prominently within that narrative - assuming the above is correct: John Titor's claims of time travel cannot work.

The physics at this level of reality may be esoteric... but for the interested....

The application of quantum mechanics to fundamental particles rests on a symmetry known as CPT, for charge-parity-time, which states that fundamental processes remain unchanged when particles are replaced by their antimatter counterparts (C), left and right are reversed (P), and time runs in the reverse direction (T).

These three elements of matter (charge-parity-time) had been for the most part entangled and not generally measurable (or observable) discretely (as in separately from one another.) Earlier experiments have hinted that time had this quality and that reverse time would likely lead to the "Hollywood-esque" imagery of everything simply "backing up" like so much reversed video or audio.

Theoretical physicists at the University of Valencia in Spain worked with researchers on BaBar to exploit the fact that the experiment had generated entangled quantum states of the meson Bzero and its antimatter counterpart Bzero-bar, which then evolved through several different decay chains. By comparing the rates of decay in chains in which one type of decay happened before another, with others in which the order was reversed, the researchers were able to compare processes that were effectively time reversed version of each other. They report in Physical Review Letters today that they see a violation of time reversal at an extremely high level of statistical significance.

“It was important to measure time reversal independently of charge-parity violation because there was always the possibility something was wrong with the full picture,” says Fabio Anulli of the National Institute for Nuclear Physics in Rome, who is physics coordinator for BaBar.

This would mean that anyone travelling back in time might likely not survive the trip, as the laws of physics indicate a likely breakdown of matter states which would render such a theoretical trip - suicide.

Now the truth is, I am hoping members more well-versed in this area of knowledge may correct me, if I am misunderstanding....

But when I thought of some of the tales of time travelers which we hear from time to time... I found this to be an interesting observation to add to the mix.

(visit the link for the full news article)
edit on 20-11-2012 by Maxmars because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 09:56 AM
Of course time flows in only one direction... that much is completely obvious to me. However that does not mean time travel is impossible. The last way I would try to travel through time is to reverse the flow of time, that would be ridiculous and obviously impossible.

PS - John Titor's claims are not debunked by this as far as I can see. He never claimed to be able to change the flow of time. He claimed to be able to jump from one spot in the time line to another spot in the same timeline or another time line.

To simplify... he wasn't claiming to be able to swim upstream against the current, or reverse the flow of the stream... it's more like he had a device which would lift him above the stream and place him back at another spot in the stream... but he once back in the river he would be taken along with the current.
edit on 20/11/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:04 AM
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

This study is a breakthrough in Physics.... Previously the arrow of time was not thought to be an intrinsic property of physics but rather, an emergent feature as a result of entropy.

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Blarneystoner
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

This study is a breakthrough in Physics.... Previously the arrow of time was not thought to be an intrinsic property of physics but rather, an emergent feature as a result of entropy.

Yes I know it's a breakthrough in physics because now we can prove time flows only in one direction. I was just saying that such a breakthrough in no way rules out the possibility of time travel. The possibility remains the same as before we discovered this.

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:07 AM
Never say never!

While it may be true that some particles can't go back.
We don't know if some sort of exotic technology can shield particles from that decay.

Interesting stuff.

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:30 AM
reply to post by Maxmars

I'm thinking of it like a road. If you wanted to travel back in time, instead of just running down the road back in the direction you came from, you'd put on a jetpack or something and kind of LEAP to different locations down the road.

Realistically, this basically means you would hop through an alternate plane, where the vibrations of matter could possible be more accommodating for such endeavors, and then hop back through into this plane. How would you hop into another place? Not sure. All I know is that higher planes are based on subatomic vibrations operating at a frequency that allows them to slip between the very reality of this one. Similar to spraying mist at more mist.

See, I'm thinking the reason for the discovery with the mesons is that our reality is constructed of subatomic particles all moving in synchronization. There's lots of different ways to disrupt the motion, but most of it happens at a broad enough level that you're messing with the compounds. The actual physical structure itself, at the most basic level, is free to react naturally. If the matter itself were to reverse, you may as well take an ocean of balls and fore them backwards.

I can take a glass jar and smash it against a wall. The glass will shatter, the wall will dent. But I can't push the glass through the drywall, because the nature of the physical matter doesn't allow that kind of interaction. The vibration is too low.
edit on 20-11-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:35 AM
reply to post by Blarneystoner

Entropy is a side effect we use to measure time, because that's the only symptom our senses can detect right now. Besides, entropy is nothing more than static relocation. Nothing is ever destroyed, it only changes form.

edit on 20-11-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:50 AM
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

Check this out.

NOVA: The Fabric of the Cosmos

Skip forward to 18:00

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 11:10 AM
its pretty crazy.... but so is everthing related to sub-atomic interactions......
pre-quantum physics relied on the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) for stating that time moves only in the "forward" direction and also pre-special relativity

but now ideas must be looked at in a different light

The best thing in science is to be wrong, because that's when the greatest discoveries occur!

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 11:10 AM
Came a couple of days too late for me to use in my Time Machine debate, but it would have been handy

Thanks for the article!

ETA: Actually, now that I read the article, I believe that the conclusion is not that time is only one directional, but that it isn't two directional in the sense that one would normally think. The experiment showed that mesons violated time reversal -- when the experiment was, for want of a better word, run in reverse, the expected starting point, given the end point, was not what it was supposed to be. In other words, in the instance where time runs forward, the ending point can be predicted from the starting point, but in the instance where time runs backward, the starting point cannot be predicted from the ending point.
edit on 20-11-2012 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 11:27 AM
reply to post by AfterInfinity

The way I understand it is this. All points in time and space exist in the same construct. An object can travel forward or backwards in time relative to another object but not relative to itself. The "amount" of time travelled is dependant upon distance and velocity.

Check out the link I posted to get a better idea....

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 11:42 AM
reply to post by Maxmars

I had to Google "arrow of time" and "B-mesons" - this paradox of "time" is now more confusing than ever.

Obviously there are some pretty bright minds whom have already contributed to this thread - I am not one of them and quite frankly am out of my depth here.

But, my grandfather, God rest his soul, always talked about the following little paradox with me and it, to this day, still keeps me guessing - what is "time"......

An arrow is fired from point A and arrives at point B some time later – a certain distance away from point A.
In order for it to travel that distance, it must first travel half that distance. In order for it to travel that “half” distance, it must first travel half of that half distance. Mathematically, the arrow must travel through an infinite number of half distances. Therefore the arrow never reaches point B. But we the observer witness it landing at point B.

Today on ATS was a post about doppelgangers and persons arriving in a place before they arrived in that place - as confirmed by witnesses. There is also the phenomena of "time slips" - covered quite well by Jenny Randles in her book "Encyclopedia of the Unexplained".

What the hell is actually going on here - is "time" what I look at on my watch - celestial navigation and the use of GMT would suggest a linear philosophy works - but that is based on me - the observer.

I could use some clarity about what "time" is - the more I read, the more it seems we are in a holographic matrix or something - kept together like sheep in a paddock.

I'm confused - that bloody arrow never reaching point B gets to me!

edit on 20-11-2012 by Sublimecraft because: (no reason given)

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Sublimecraft
I could use some clarity about what "time" is - the more I read, the more it seems we are in a holographic matrix - like sheep in a paddock.

Stolen from my second post in the "Time Machine" debate (referenced in my .sig down there) with Druid42:

From a philosophical standpoint, there are two main ways in which time is viewed.

The first, which derived from philosophical realism, comes from Sir Isaac Newton and holds that time is a fundamental part of the universe and is simply the means by which events occur in sequence. Sequence, of course, implies order, and a singular direction. We build a house by a sequence of foundation, walls and roof, not roof, then walls, then foundation.

Absolute, true and mathematical time, of itself, and from its own nature, flows equably without relation to anything external, and by another name is called duration: relative, apparent and common time, is some sensible and external (whether accurate of unequable) measure of duration by the means of motion, which is commonly used instead of true time; such as an hour, a day, a month, a year. (Isaac Newton, cited in Philosophy of Physics: Space and Time by Tim Maudlin, pg 13.)

The second view is that time is simply a structural framework, constructed by the observer, in order to be able to frame one's views. Just as we have invented measurement of space in order to be able to quantify distances, we have invented measurement of time in order to be able to quantify durations. By this perspective, time is not really anything -- it is merely the intellectual imposition of order.

Space and time are the framework within which the mind is constrained to construct its experience of reality. (Immanuel Kant)

Hope that clarifies it!

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 11:53 AM
There is absolutely no proof i am aware of that "time" is a singular flow.....
There could be many kinds of time depending upon the energy/entropy level of the particular space you happen to inhabit....
Local conditions like gravity, state of field,highly ionized/energized gas clouds could have effects we dont as yet understand....Time...or rate directional flow could be a product of other factors.....
In other words, time could flow at different rates relative to other localities....Indeed the aliens have told us this is so......that time is not uniform.... throughout the universe.....Though we can see this inside of black holes for ourselves....

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 12:07 PM
reply to post by adjensen

Thanks mate - I read your debate yesterday and today and gleaned that info. In fact it was you post in this thread that made me post my thoughts.

ATS member "stirling" who has just weighed in on this thread again brings some interesting things to the table.

I will continue to read this thread with much interest.

Seems that me - the observer, is the key to this, somehow.

Fascinating stuff indeed - hopefully one day soon the UFO's will land and the occupants will explain all this stuff so simple beer drinkin Aussies such as myself can understand it!!

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 12:14 PM
This is a learning exercise for me. Among the many things in nature; time is something of a muddled mystery to me.

Presuming I could 'rewind' time via dimensional or physical manipulation. I would have always assumed that if we were observing, for example, a firecracker popping... and then "rewind time"... I would expect to see an un-exploded firecracker in it's place... in fact... if I could measure the time passage accurately enough, I could witness the 'reintegration' of the firecracker - down to each individual speck of black powder un-combusitng...and packing itself back neatly in the original firecracker form...

...but this seems to indicate to me that such a 'rewind' can't take place... matter may or may not 'repack' the way we would expect it to in normal time. thus the resulting 'rewind' leads to a quite literal "different firecracker' being repacked... if it repacks at all.

To make matters more confusing, the idea of predictable entropy is affected as well.

I truly appreciate the input everyone has given, and I'm looking forward to more information from the brightest minds on the internet!!

Thanks again everyone.

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 01:00 PM
The terminology alone spoofs my senses!

The problem with tin-foil hats is that rather than block perceived “radio-invasions;” aluminum for instance conducts rather efficiently…what was once perceived to be paranoia, later became known as historical events.

I don't think "time" is an actual reality that can be manipulated like air expanding the space inside a balloon; space has its own boundary.
There is no thresh hold for the confines of time, anywhere that I could point ya' to. Unless the big bang was the result of something else?

(been watching alot of "A Haunting" lately, and wondering if ghosts that haunt us are being haunted by us in their reality???)

Is this fourth dimension thing slowly revealing itself to us? Are ghosts real?
Only time will tell!

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 01:26 PM
All these things fascinate me, the concept of 'time' is amazing to think about.

I envision time as an unfolding so to speak. Matter is MADE of atoms and molecules. Particles spinning, moving. A physical vibration of energy. And a vibration, like a sound, has to have a time component to have any meaning. I think the "time component" of the matter we live in is only a result of the fact that energy condensed into matter is ever-changing, that's where entropy is derived, that's the nature of it, and thereby time is created. Or to take that even further, maybe human consciousness creates time, as a construct to rationalize the ever changing state of the universe.

I actually wrote a song once called "The Arrow of Time".

posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 01:45 PM
reply to post by Maxmars

The concept that all states of Time (past, present and future) exist in the same construct can be tested to some extent.

In experimentation, it seems that past events can be influenced by future events (Retrocausality)

Physicists led by Prof. Anton Zeilinger at the Institute for Quantum Optics and Quantum Information (IQOQI), the University of Vienna, and the Vienna Center for Quantum Science and Technology (VCQ) have, for the first time, demonstrated in an experiment that the decision whether two particles were in an entangled or in a separable quantum state can be made even after these particles have been measured and may no longer exist.

Can Future Actions Influence Past Events? Experiment Mimics Quantum Physics 'Spooky Action Into the Past'

This has all sorts of implications, one of which might be a partial explanation for the abilty to predict the future. When a QI packet changes states in the future it also changes states in the past!!
edit on 20-11-2012 by Blarneystoner because: (no reason given)

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