Islamism

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posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by MDDoxs
 





You are misconstruing the facts and twisting words to intentionally distance Israel from its role in creating and supporting Hamas.


In what sense do you mean Israel "created" Hamas? Are you suggesting they still control Hamas, and not the Muslim Brotherhood whom they have ideological affinity with?

As the article stated


Sheikh Yassin collected money to reprint the writings of Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian member of the Brotherhood who, before his execution by President Nasser, advocated global jihad.


Sayd Qutb,


was an Egyptian author, educator, Islamist theorist, poet, and the leading member of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and '60s.


Link

So how am I lying? The founder of Hamas, Shek Yassin, spread the writings of Sayyd Qutb, a leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood. Yet you construe the "creation" of Hamas as being Israels "invention", and not simply a political force Israel made the mistake in helping support as a counterweight against Arafats PLO.

I could not be presenting information anymore honestly. If you come to any conclusion other than Hamas being a faction of the Muslim Brotherhood, you're either lying, or you're insanely irrational.
edit on 19-11-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


This is where I got confused.

I thought you said 'Islamism' instead of Islam.

Islamism is like a 'tool' that Muslims use to impose their religion/philosophy on others. That's how I understood your analogy. Hence my confusion.

I criticize only Islamism, not Islam. And frankly, if you aren't in the least bit disturbed by the activities of Islamists and the claims they make of wanting to 'conquer the world', you have a screw loose.



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 





it's longer term goals after securing an Islamic caliphate, is the conversion of the Dar Al Harb (the abode of war; or non-Muslim lands) into Dar Al Islam. Thus, Islamism is a direct threat against all non-Muslim civilizations. '


By chance are you an avid Glen Beck viewer? Just curious.

Am I afraid of Arab Muslims forming a caliphate and taking over the world, my own western world included? No. They cannot invade any countries and hope to win and their ideology the majority of the world does not adhere to what so ever.



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 11:06 PM
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Israel as well as the US had a major role in creating Hamas. This is just fact.



How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas

Hamas is a Creation of Mossad

Israel and the U.S Created Hamas



posted on Nov, 19 2012 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by beezzer
 


This is where I got confused.

I thought you said 'Islamism' instead of Islam.

Islamism is like a 'tool' that Muslims use to impose their religion/philosophy on others. That's how I understood your analogy. Hence my confusion.

I criticize only Islamism, not Islam. And frankly, if you aren't in the least bit disturbed by the activities of Islamists and the claims they make of wanting to 'conquer the world', you have a screw loose.


I've been accused of having a screw loose for years.

I'm concerned over people using a religion to supress anothers rights.

Be it Islam, Westboro Baptist, or flying purple spag monster.

Now Islamism being the political arm of Islam is all fine and dandy. If that's what the folks want in their country. I honestly believe that freedoms brought about by a democracy are just not acceptable to some cultures.

But keep it in "their" country.

Just two more cents.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 01:00 AM
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reply to post by Swills
 





They cannot invade any countries and hope to win and their ideology the majority of the world does not adhere to what so ever.


So? Does that change the essential nature of their creed? Does that dampen their spirits, or their belief in the "truth" that Islam is destined to reign the world over?

Your post is simply irrational. It's a step by step process. It takes time. 50 years ago, the Muslim Brotherhood was outlawed by Nasr. In 2011, they are ruling in Egypt and Tunisia. Syria, Libya, Jordan, Lebanon, and Israel (via Hamas) are all on the radar. Their program is working; it has succeeded in taking over the leading Arab nation - Egypt. Why are you still maintaining skepticism and indolence in the face of these gains?

Mark my words. 10 or 20 years from now, Islamism will be a much bigger problem than it's recognized to be today.
edit on 20-11-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 


If they didn't express wishes for world domination, we would have nothing to worry about.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 06:36 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


Great post, really informative. I appreciate the time and research needed to be able to write that out clearly.

but.....




The problem is this authoritarianism that threatens to impose it's beliefs on others. If Christianity had gone in this direction, or If Judaism attempted the same, I would put up my arms and condemn them just as I now do towards Islamism.


what freaking planet are you living on? Christianity is essentially the watermark, our entire western civilization is essentially dictated right out of Christianity. You have to swear on a bible in court. In God we trust (the christian one of course). If you don't believe what they believe you are going to burn in eternal damnation. you need to be saved.

I could take this paragraph to point out the similar tactics and methods employed by some sects of Judaism but there's not point.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


Ummm how is my post irrational? Fact, the Arab/Muslim world cannot take over the world either by force or idealology. And that's all there is too it. Now are you an avid Glen Beck viewer? I ask cuz his listeners buy into this nonsense. Doesn't matter how bad some Muslims may want to take over the world it ain't ever gonna happen.

Never ever.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin
 




I think the OP is correct to say there is a conflict just now in the Muslim word between moderate seculars and authoritarian Islamists. The key thing to remember however is that for some this is in reality a holy war, a war between the unbelievers and God, they see themselves as serving God. Quttb one of the founders of violent Islamic extremism is very good to read up on specifically upon this point. He said that the Islamic word was in a state of Jahiliyyah or “ignorance of God” it is like Islam in being attacked with increasing secularisation and his solution was to fight back.



This however I think is where the danger in discussing political Islam comes into play. The ideology of Quttb and the Takfir with a pan-Arabic view that fuel Islamic terrorism are not found in all aspects of Islamic ideology or even that of all Islamic terrorist organisations. This is where things start to become very complicated and convoluted.


When and if the raised tensions and back and forth bickering from both sides simmer down it is my earnest wish that we can have a rational discussion about the very points you brought up. I try to stay rational and understand the issues in the Middle East especially with the turning tide of the Muslim Brotherhood rise to power in Egypt and the uprisings in Syria going on now. It may be my own ignorance in the dynamics with the fundamental vs. moderate ideologies of Islam and being able to seperate the political dynamic from the religion. My big fear is the banding together of fundamentalism (whether religious or politically as a tool for control) and how that could directly affect us all.

I'm fine with people believing what they want and living how they choose but not if it infringes on my rights and freedom to personal choices, which is being limited year by year as it is.

For instance, how is possible for Sharia laws to be in play in parts of England and some European countries according to past threads such as this one:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:34 AM
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Thanks OP for your informative posts. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, but as long as you are willing to share it, to openly share it, and hope we all can civily discuss it, it will go a long way towards greater understanding for many, for those who seek to understand. Good luck on your thread.

Palestine was part of the brutal Ottoman Empire, and palestinians were only arab and jewish squatters on that Caliphate land, equally brutalized by the high and low Turks.

Towards the end of the 18th century, the bedouin caravan raiders were enticed by the corrupted Ottoman turks to become land agents for them, instead of raiding them, and they came from Arabia, with clan ties to Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and formed the needed backbone of strength of the weak and pacified palestine people.

Most of the jews living in then Jerusalem were mainly theology scholars, whom had been fleeced dry by the greedy Ottoman inorder to stay there.

The jewish migration, fleeing from oppression in Russia and Poland, were welcomed by the hungry Ottoman Turks whom had earn little from the palestinian serfs whom had no social expenditure from the empire while paying taxes and rents, and thus little in way of knowledge in farming.

Those migrated jews brought spring to the land with their new techniques on poor soil and swamps, often the kind of land that was sold astronomically to them. The arabs did not welcome them, but a kind of truce developed over time to share the land at least in armed peace, if not in harmony.

This was the origins of the 'palestine people'.

2. In the early 19th century, the decadent Ottoman Empire was in its death throes. England easily won the mandate to rule those lands during the crucial war years as an access route to the Suez. They were responsible for partitioning up those empire lands and assigned rulers to them.

Unfortunately, the brits failed. Parcels of land was seized by the Saudi tribe and created the new land Saudi Arabia that encompass the holy muslim sites. It then set the precedent for every ambitious arab commoner with an eye for a throne of their own.

Islam was but a way to gather fools to achieve their personal goals, nothing more. Sharia laws were the best social structures to build a religious slave state than ensures total absolute power to the head and none except lip service to the people.

It was against such backdrops that the Muslim Brotherhood, and its offshoot - hamas, was formed. Yassim was nothing more than another ambitious mortal seeking for kingship, and his manifesto was but the way to gain power and rule over muslims. Islam is but a tool to him and his kind.

This was never what prophet Muhammad had intended, for he had intended man alone to be answerable to Allah, and work together following original moral and ethical guidelines from the sacred Koran, and not twisted interpretations from man, for the common good as an assembly, and not dictatorship.

The booting out of the last Caliph was by Divine providence, for enough was enough for the muslim people.

Yet today, stupid mortals are fighting and killing others for the return of the Caliphate. Turkey is one of them, the 'Mahdi' spouting apostate Khameni is another. And many muslims, unfortunately, are still sleeping.

In truth, by all means, let the Caliphate return or Muslim Brotherhood reign. They have no idea beyond seizing power, to uplift the lives of the common people, and the people will only suffer.

They had all the chance after 1911 to grow up, and build up a prosperous society with the discovery of oil. But they didnt and only wasted Allah's bounty upon indulgences, power and themselves. As many more nations discover oil in their own lands, as well as alternative energies, even USA, it is time to say bye-bye to the middle east dependence, if the arabs still seek to continue in their own self destructive ways.

May true muslims wake up, and work with the rest of the world, to achieve progress and evolution based upon common goals of life peacefully, so that none gets left behind. The self destructive ways and delusions must end.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 02:13 PM
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Everyday, even every moment, events reveals much for directions to be taken.

Hamas - the descendants of the bedouin caravan thieves from Arabia that had settled in palestine, and claimed to lead the indigenous palestines yet had only lead them into suffering, pain and death, should give up on its delusion of a tyranny over the jews or lay any further claims to the land for themselves.

The land had been occupied by both jews and the orignal arabs for centuries, and with the formation of the new state of Israel, both had accepted and agreed to share the land together under a democracy, with no astronomical taxes upon the muslims there. They share almost every common goals.

Under the dictatorship of Hamas, I doubt if it would even be the same for the original arabs, let alone jews, with their tyrannical imposition of man made and interpretated Sharia laws to perpetuate brutal authoritarianism, the way they had led and sacrificed countless thousands of palestines to death in their personal self delusions of granduer.

The arab-israeli wars are long over. Treaties had been signed. The extermination of the jewish people is not for mortals to decide. Those wars are already religious proof of that. Nazi germany was exterminated. And the palestinian people will face doom next if they allow the insane Egyptian linked Hamas to lead.

When the jews under Moses - the same prophet of muslims, led them into Canaan, they succeeded despite all odds. It was divine will, as recorded in both the Bible and the Koran.

If Egypt and its brother Hamas seek for conquest, and to be rulers over a society, one nation lays awaiting for true muslims - Iran.

Umar had no problem converting the common persian laymen to Islam when he launch an attack upon Persia. It was the leaders whom prophet Muhammad was worried about and sought to win them by hearts and minds instead, and rightly so, as he knew these men would create problems for Islam later, and proven right today.

Persia, under the apostate Khameni, worships more the mythical 'Mahdi' than the prophet and it is the Mahdi that is central to the Shia beliefs, not prophet Muhammad whom had done so much, sacrificed so much to bring about arab unity and civilisation, and thinks that mythical Mahdhi is some end time saviour, had preached current times as end days when prophet Muhammad had specifically said no mortal will know when.

The apostate Khameni had openly preach against the teachings of the prophet, amongst many other issues too many to list here, is an apostate.

It is time for true sunni muslims to topple him and his followers, as well as his puppets around the world destabilizing not only the world, but muslim states as well, inclulding the HumanSlayer Assad, and bring the rest of the muslims misled by him to true Islam.

Persia and Egypt had long been rivals since civilisation began. It would be as good as time for Egypt to finish the rivalry once and for all, and be the undisputed democractic leader of muslims worldwide, not only in the Middle East. . Great times await Egypt, if it but wakes up from delusions and face realities. It comes but once. Saudi Arabia already made good use of such opportunity in the past in its quest for the holy city Mecca and is today respected worldwide.

If Egypt does not want to take up that prestigious role, Desperado authoritarian Turkey Endrogovan is ever ready to seize it and only waiting for an opportunity to gobble up Iran whole.
edit on 20-11-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:16 PM
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reply to post by Swills
 


I don't get my views from news shows. I've never seen Glen Beck, and I personally dislike his personality.

I read. I own books. I read 15-20 books a month. I don't sit around twiddling my thumbs watching youtube videos pretending I know what I'm talking about.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by phishyblankwaters
 





You have to swear on a bible in court


If that is the most oppressive thing you can think of - that were asked to swear on a bible in court - what argument do you really have? That book can mean whatever you want it to mean. It's nothing more than a symbol for some ultimate truth that you're asked to swear by.



If you don't believe what they believe you are going to burn in eternal damnation. you need to be saved.


Do you have trouble understanding the difference between being annoyed and being forced? No one forces you to believe in God, to abide by Christian morals, to go to church, to do anything Christian. There is a division between church and state. Church - go this way, and stay there. All our laws are predicated in subjects beyond the sphere of religion. It's the COMPLETE opposite in an Islamist country.
edit on 20-11-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:21 PM
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Implementing Islam in the political sphere in addition to day to day life is an obligation of Muslims. It's not an extreme form of Islam, it's Islam period. Muslims are required to try and bring back an Islamic khilafah.

Currently, no such state exists.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:22 PM
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So Hamas is like the Westboro Baptist Church?

I think I get the spirit of the thread.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


You have your facts twisted. Forcing religion on anyone is a great sin in Islam.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by Octoneo
 





It's not an extreme form of Islam, it's Islam period. Muslims are required to try and bring back an Islamic khilafah.


I actually agree. That is the historical Islam. But what if you're not Muslim? Can cinemas still exists? Clubs? the sale of alcohol? Cigarettes? Gambling? Singing?

Such a society is the extreme opposite of western civilization.. In like manner, just as the west emphasizes 'tolerance' as a necessary attribute of liberal democracy, Islam can only be intolerant due to it's absolute religious demands. If you go against the shari'a, the shari'a prescribes definite punishments. And death is ultimately the punishment in most cases of rebellion against Islam.

You talk in such a calm and modest tone. The mirror opposite of how you would have to be with persons who oppose your religion/political program.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by Octoneo
 


Perhaps from your particular sectarian interpretation.

The Islamists obviously see enforcement of Islam as a requirement. Why else divide the non-Muslim world into a region termed "Dar Al-Harb". Harb means 'sword' in Arabic, implying war. What kind of terminology is that if not to mean that all non-Muslim lands are in marked off for war?? It also means that you regard all non-Muslims as being in a state of war against Allah; and by extension war against the umma.



posted on Nov, 20 2012 @ 10:31 PM
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Implementing an Islamic state is a requirement. However, sparking aggression is forbidden in Islam.


Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Octoneo
 



I actually agree. That is the historical Islam. But what if you're not Muslim? Can cinemas still exists? Clubs? the sale of alcohol? Cigarettes? Gambling? Singing?

Such a society is the extreme opposite of western civilization.. In like manner, just as the west emphasizes 'tolerance' as a necessary attribute of liberal democracy, Islam can only be intolerant due to it's absolute religious demands. If you go against the shari'a, the shari'a prescribes definite punishments. And death is ultimately the punishment in most cases of rebellion against Islam.

You talk in such a calm and modest tone. The mirror opposite of how you would have to be with persons who oppose your religion/political program.


Non-Muslims in an Islamic state can actually do whatever they want as long as it doesn't interfere with the public sphere. You can drink, gamble or whatever as long as the community does not suffer because of it. Cinemas and singing aren't against Islam by the way, though some uneducated Muslims think so.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I am a very devout Muslim. I'm a little unorthodox though, since I've actually studied the Quran unlike most.
edit on 20-11-2012 by Octoneo because: (no reason given)
edit on 20-11-2012 by Octoneo because: Added stuff.
edit on 20-11-2012 by Octoneo because: (no reason given)





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