If there were no spiritual consequences

I suppose it would... It's a scarey thought, yet somehow comforting, at-least knowing the monotheistic religions were wrong about hell. I'd rather cease to exist than exist in a state of pure suffering for eternity.

However, I think it would also push human beings to work towards the goal of immortality via consciousness upload/biotech/genetic engineering/transhumanism. We're already on that path, but it would perhaps speed up even more so as many people as possible could sustain their conscious experience.

reply to post by Dark Ghost
I think that some people might make long-term plans according to some aspects of their belief systems and have one eye on the after-life. Suicide-bombers and charitable benefactors just have different ways of reaching heaven. Spiritual consequences could have some mileage in that way.

On the other hand, in the short-term people tend to act from instinct and their actions often reflect the type of character they've developed. Whether someone reaches out a hand to pull the pedestrian from the passing car or to grab that 20 when nobody's looking is a spontaneous moment. Sure, they can colour it in 'religious' when they reflect on it and blame dark forces or the love of [insert] for the outcomes at their leisure.

Maybe sportsmen and women are useful examples here? Many will testify to their Faith and yet, in the sporting moment, we'll see that some will cheat, lie or use violence through envy and frustration. Others are magnanimous in defeat and rarely catch the official's attention.

Altogether, I think human nature *nearly* always overcomes religious beliefs and spiritual consequences. If so, a world without them would probably be as beautiful and full of conflict as it has been for millennia.

I don't fear the consequences of being a bad person, because I believe in no heaven and no hell. I do, however, strictly follow a moral code. Religious morality is hypocritical because it's viewed as a punishment, like "Oh you can't be an asshat or you'll never get into heaven," assuming that without the illusion of heaven people would act like savages.

If life only offers a physical plane, then that would make morals so much more important. Because it would all matter so much more, making people feel good, doing things for others, helping others, it would all matter, because this is the only chance you have. Why would we be negative when we can be happy and positive? There is no point in going around killing people and making people feel bad, there may be no consequences, but are you really happy doing that? Life, physical or not, is meant to be enjoyed, and full of love, even if it only exists on the physical plane.

Now on a side note.

We know there is more than just a physical plane because, just the act of birth itself is amazing..... We have no idea how life is actually created. We don't know where a being gets its consciousness from. We don't even understand how the human brain works.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
ultimately no spiritual consequences for your beliefs/thoughts/actions in this physical world. Everything you do or have done to you remains confined to this physical plane.

well speaking hypothetically..
well IF there is nothing "after" conscious existence after this physical plane..
then the ONLY consequences we have to contend with .. are consequences according to our behavior on THIS physical plane..

so we still have to contend with other people's response to our behavior.
reward and praise for behavior that pleases others...
revenge and retribution.. to whatever extent.. implemented by others.. for our behavior that may displease them.

so if there is no other god than man.. then judgement would be exacted upon us by other men.
and vice versa...
so i couldn't imagine anything that an imaginary god could do to us in praise or revenge.. that would be worse than what any man or group of men could do to us..
in fact i think given the sufficient level of scientific means...
.... anything any "man" could do to his fellow man.. would be vastly worse (and conversely) incredibly greater than what any imaginary god could do.

so via what i've said ... makes this a moot point... doesnt matter if there's spiritual consequences... the physical consequences could be equal or greater in intensity.

to quote a song by Tool :

if consequences dictate
my course of action
then it doesn't matter whats right.
it's only wrong if you get caught...
if consequences dictate
my course of action
then i should play god and shoot you myself.

now, these lyrics at this part of the song are in a severely mocking tone... purposefully showing how undesirable it is when everyone in the group think this way...

it leads to barbarism and abuse abound.
so the singer is pointing that out blatantly.
in that stanza he's taking on the role of a sociopathic character...to illustrate that mentality's illness / corruption.

which leads me back to my response ... where if everyone treats one another how they wish to be treated (using reason and compassion) .. then we'd be a more cohesive, spiritually flourishing, and durable society.

the key to this ..in my mind (as far out as it may seem) ...is group telepathy.
if one individual sees and feels how his fellow man feels concerning how he is being treated...
then interpersonal abuse would cease to exist.. unless of course the telepathic population were psychotically masochistic ... which i don't see existing for long.. as it would eventually destroy itself.

i think we will see this in the not so distant future.... group telepathy.
however only the non-prejudice thinking and unbiased minded individual would be able to conceptualize this phenomena... and attempt in it's manifestation.
and going back to the lyrics... "only wrong if you get caught"... when group telepathy exists... all the things you've done will be no longer secrets.. and judgement via the group and punishment would occur.. and so it's in effect... retroactive.
there's no way you wouldn't get caught for wrongdoings in a group telepathy / noosphere world.

great topic S+F. this needs discussing.

P.S. Crowley's Thelema slogan : "Do as thou shalt is the whole of the law" (by my mind) does NOT mean: "do anything you want...even abusive things..."
it's quite to the contrary... do as where reason projects us.. which is non-abusive behavior.
simultaneously i perceive it as more of a trick of convoluted riddle motto... a trap for those who would abuse...
a boon for those who wouldn't....because to do as "YOU" would.. means what you would do .. pertaining to you an your beliefs.. your perception of reality.. and.. in the end.. based on how you would want to be treated... or not...

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Imagine that there is no God, no Galactic Federation, no High Council, no Karma, no Reincarnation and ultimately no spiritual consequences for your beliefs/thoughts/actions in this physical world. Everything you do or have done to you remains confined to this physical plane. There is no Heaven or Hell, purgatory, cycles, rebirth or Nirvana etc.

Keeping this in mind, please take an honest look within and answer the following questions:

1) Would your attitude towards life change?
2) Would your attitude towards other people change?
3) Would you take part in more selfish behaviours?
4) Would you take part in fewer altruistic behaviours?
5) Would you fell more liberated or shackled than you currently do?

* * * * *

ETA: I didn't intend for this to be a "would the world be more lawless, immoral and materialistic without religion" thread. One can still be spiritual and disbelieve in a Deity. One can still be a good person without the fear of consequences of being a bad person.

edit on 19/11/2012 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

I think that no matter what a person believes they go through hard times, that a person is going to be treated badly regardless of their beliefs, usually the poor get treated the worst.
For the most part, when I "look at the world" I think that the rich dictate the norms, and the rest hold eachother to those norms, the behavior police, be they religious or not.

There used to be a role playing game called Cyberpunk. The characters stood the best chance of living a wonderful life of luxury and happiness by first buying a helmet, then going into the poor inner city neighborhoods called "combat zones", and executing dozens of gang bangers and homeless people to sell their body parts on the black market, to then be used for purchasing high grade Euro cybernetic implants, plastic surgery, and bigger weapons. Characters were encouraged to be shallow, paranoid, greedy, deceptive, and sexually depraved. Controlling people with remote controlled bombs in their heads, or literally enslaving them with invasive neural technology was popular among many players.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


No imagination needed, you describe the world as is outlined in your statement anyway, so nothing for me would change.

I think a better way to get people to question their own world view and how they treat others might be to turn the post upside down:

“Imagine that there is a God, or Galactic Federation, or High Council, Karma, Reincarnation and full spiritual consequences for your beliefs/thoughts/actions in this physical world. Everything you do or have done to you will be judged. There is a Heaven, Hell, purgatory, cycles, rebirth or Nirvana etc.

Keeping this in mind, please take an honest look within and answer the following questions:

1) Would your attitude towards life change?
2) Would your attitude towards other people change?
3) Would you take part in less selfish behaviours?
4) Would you take part in more altruistic behaviours?
5) Would you fell more liberated or shackled than you currently do?”

I think more people would find that as unselfish as their actions might currently be, they could probably find it within themselves to be a little less so in any given circumstance, or a little more altruistic if it were proved without doubt that you were going to be judged. And I include all faiths or lack thereof in my above statement.

I'm sorry, I read what if those things were not true.

If all of those things were though, I still wouldn't take things people have said about religion and let it influence me.
If these things were true, I suppose that means there would be proof of them and everything we thought we knew would be proven false.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

ETA: I didn't intend for this to be a "would the world be more lawless, immoral and materialistic without religion" thread. One can still be spiritual and disbelieve in a Deity. One can still be a good person without the fear of consequences of being a bad person.

edit on 19/11/2012 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)

See, it always bothers me when people dispense with some notion of higher accountability (like you said, God, the Galactic Federation, etc. etc) and then speak of good and evil. You said someone can still be a good person w/out the fear of consequences. That may be true, but if there is no higher power...no transcendental standard...what is good and evil?

And in regards to your question, I'm not really sure. I'm not sure if I would just shrug it off and just keep up living like I am, or whether I would internalize and act on it. I try to be logically consistent, so there's a good chance I'd act on it. I think I might feel more liberated, but I think I'd also be less altruistic. I don't think I'd be a terrible person or anything (because it stinks to have everyone hate you) but I'm not sure how that would end up working out. I have a hunch that it's hard to go through life being selfish without hurting other people.

So:

1. Yes, definitely.
2. Yes, but I kinda doubt it would be overt.
3. Yes, most likely.
4. Probably. I suppose there is also the chance that the shortness of life would impel me to be more altruistic, if that makes any sense.
5. In a sense, I suppose liberated--I mean, I can do anything and get away with it, right? (Well, as long as I don't get caught doing something criminal) But I also think I would feel more despondent. I would be liberated to do as many selfish things as I could get away with doing, knowing that none of the good things--or bad things--that I did would ever really matter. Knowing that there's really no good or evil.

Pretty poor liberation, if you ask me.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Since there is not one person walking today who knows, the depth or scope of what is, and what is not possible
(please let that sink in) I would say being and doing and living what is right for you on all levels, is all you've ever had to rely on.

When you realise you are completely responsible for you, (and I mean really) you continue much refined and as assisted or as unassisted as you choose. Thanks Mum and Dad! you have also lessened a burden somewhere else.
Be responsible to and for, all you see and hear and feel.

Sometimes it is immeasurably complex, other times it is naturally simple.

I choose to have faith in the multifaceted glory that is man, it matters not who/what created him, that he is, is all that is, add that to where we are, and in who's company(only if you like)..............and the mind boggles with excitement of the possibilities to come.

Friends are everywhere

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I have heard the argument that people only act out of kindness because of the possibility of Punishment by GOD. This is not true. I do not believe in the basic Religious concept of a Heaven and Hell and I try to be as kind as I can.

I believe that for many...it is perfectly NATURAL to treat others the way YOU wish to be treated. I do not need the concept of GOING TO HELL to guide my actions. Split Infinity

reply to post by AussieAmandaC


Simple. True. Love the iambic flow of your musings.

Nothing says this is not the case... except religion.

Theory is just theory. We behave accordingly.

Though we may claim otherwise, none of us truly knows what lies beyond the veil.

People take it on faith that there are spiritual consequences. In that case, we might be our own worst judge.

Seems like it would go the same either way, since here on this material plane, we handle our own affairs on a daily basis without any apparent divine intervention. If there were, maybe things would be different?

If you go through life feeling like some unseen force has you under surveillance, eventually you would probably just stop caring and do what you do anyway. Especially if said force never really intervenes in any perceptible way and the consequences go unheralded. Or you might just live out your days in fear.

To answer: Not really.

Even if one could prove that there are spiritual consequences, there are those that will always go against the grain. ( @ GOD. )

Even if we could prove that there is indeed something beyond the veil, what is to say there is any consequence at all to having lived? (A bunch of crap that we can't seem to verify.)

It would seem, religion doesn't stop degenerates any more than the law stops criminals.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Imagine that there is ... no spiritual consequences
...
Keeping this in mind, please take an honest look within and answer the following questions:

1) Would your attitude towards life change?
2) Would your attitude towards other people change?
3) Would you take part in more selfish behaviours?
4) Would you take part in fewer altruistic behaviours?
5) Would you fell more liberated or shackled than you currently do?

1-5: I would ravage, plunder, and possibly eat all who oppose me.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
One can still be a good person without the fear of consequences of being a bad person.

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

Without any form of religious, social, or physical consequence we would all exhibit the more extreme behaviors that other pack animals exhibit. We would be less kind to those we are familiar with, and we would be very afraid or violent towards those we are unfamiliar with.

The notion that is popping up around the forums, that atheist are more ethical than theist, is complete bs. Their ethics are the result of living in an ethical society - a society that gained its ethics from religion.

First of all where did you get Galactic Federation and High Council from - youtube?. I am laughing out loud every single time I hear this.
Back on topic, even without believing in all this we have common sense and thats all we need. Many of my friends are skeptics, yet they leave a normal life as everyone else and are not afraid or even think what happens after death.
Sometimes I even think they are more in control of there own life then believers.
Closed-minded is actually good, course they dont have to process everything we think about.
But in the end, I think - fear - is the main question here not in what we believe in. (think i need to rephrase this, but lets see.)

If there was no Creator....
1) Would your attitude towards life change?
2) Would your attitude towards other people change?
3) Would you take part in more selfish behaviours?
4) Would you take part in fewer altruistic behaviours?
5) Would you fell more liberated or shackled than you currently do?

I look around at western society and see the results of declining faith in Christ. I see prisons overflowing with murderers, rapists, child molestors, thieves and drug dealers; I see entire neighbourhoods alarmed and with bars on windows and doors; I see children being escorted to school because of the thousands of child abductions; I see women and children sexually abused on film to satisfy the uncontrolled sexual lusts; I see suicide rates climbing in teens; I see hatred against the poor and needy; I see children not bring taught morality; I see business owners laying off staff so they can have more materialism; I see constant war and bloodshed on tv desensitising people to violence......

......so I would say that collectively the answer to your questions is yes.

Speak with the elderly. They'll tell you how different their childhood was, how problems existed but on such a tiny scale when compared with today. So what changed? Technology doesn't warrant a change in beliefs. The fact that everyone has a car instead of a horse doesn't warrant a change of morality. So what did? The removal of the true Word of God from our homes, schools and churches. Every single one of us has his or her morality shaped by someone or something - for some it's parents, for others it's the media and for others it's the Holy Spirit and Words of God - or even a combination of them.

I think that there is overwhelming evidence in front of our faces that the removal of "the fear of spiritual consequences" has drastically impacted our behaviours.

If there is one phrase in the Bible repeatedly given to us by Our Creator, it's Fear the Lord. It's clearly evident that the majority foolishly no longer heed that warning and command. Our collective society therefore clearly shows the fruits of choosing to reject the "spiritual consequences", which is my answer to your question.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Imagine that there is no God, no Galactic Federation, no High Council, no Karma, no Reincarnation and ultimately no spiritual consequences for your beliefs/thoughts/actions in this physical world. Everything you do or have done to you remains confined to this physical plane. There is no Heaven or Hell, purgatory, cycles, rebirth or Nirvana etc.

Keeping this in mind, please take an honest look within and answer the following questions:

1) Would your attitude towards life change?
2) Would your attitude towards other people change?
3) Would you take part in more selfish behaviours?
4) Would you take part in fewer altruistic behaviours?
5) Would you fell more liberated or shackled than you currently do?...

For me, saying that there's no God is the same thing as saying that everyone is God. We could also say that the only two things that exist is Knowledge and Ignorance but ignorance is a tool of knowledge. And is Knowledge something solely intellectual? Isn't experiential knowledge something much broader? In that sense, you're not any better than the homeless guy you recently saw... And can you be liberated? If you take the time to observe yourself, you'll discover that you've always been liberated from Anything so there's no such thing as liberation.

Nothing would change.

If you feel you need some invisible daddy figure or prison guard in the sky looking over your shoulder constantly to make sure you don't do anything you KNOW is wrong or might harm other people - that is your failing and weakness.

Millions of people around the globe do not need the threat of invisible daddy smacking their bottom for all eternity to know what is right and wrong.

If there were no spiritual consequences I'd be a very bad man indeed. I would give in to the base instincts/desires that I have spend my entire life suppressing. That said, I'd only do so to people who deserve it (paedophiles and the like) and I'd take great pleasure in making them fear me and my wrath before I ended their life's in a frightening and painful manner.

I'm a pretty dark soul really and throughout my life I've often cursed the fact that I have faith in God and a belief in an eternal soul.

Rev