reply to post by charles1952
No, you haven't offended my intelligence, and btw, thanks for thinking I have some!
I am, though, a little confused. Who is the prosecutor God or Satan? I thought that Jesus was a representation of the sacrificial lamb, meant as an
offering to God, that saves the faithful from HIS wrath. He liked those kinds of things in the OT.
So, is God the prosecutor? If God accepted Jesus' life as currency for our salvation, and the deed is done, the debt paid, then it seems to me that
the prosecutor has no choice but to free both men, as he can't reject Jesus' payment. Neither can the men tell Jesus to take it back. He can't
undie, or unresurrect, or undefeat evil.
If Satan is the prosecutor, does Jesus need to pay Satan off, to free us from sin, but only if we let him do it? I thought Jesus defeated Satan.
Doesn't this scenario empower Satan, the father of lies, a little too much?
How would we have the sense to know that this very powerful being, who is way smarted than us, is lying to us. Why would Jesus have left us in such a
position that we have to, in our own way, defeat Satan first, just to accept this "free" gift of salvation? It's mind boggling to think of how
many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and others, are being deceived by Satan into rejecting this gift. So much heavenly work, Jesus did, for so few
When Jesus taught, he taught his followers how to pray and how to live good lives. He said that if you follow these teachings and believe him, then
good things will happen. He didn't spend his time telling the masses that came to hear him preach that they must believe that when he dies, he will
resurrect, having defeated sin, but that they must believe this in order for it to work for them. Nor did he teach that by not believing this, they
would be damned for eternity, regardless of following his other teachings. This is what Paul spent his time teaching.
So, if Jesus knew that his life purpose was to die as a human blood sacrifice for sin, he kept that secret pretty much between himself and his father,
up until the very end. Even then he only whispered clues to his apostles, who didn't understand him fully. Even though they thought him the
messiah, they didn't expect him to die.
So even if we believe that Jesus' death was the price paid for a new covenant for all of mankind, not just Jews, the deal was struck between Jesus,
God and Satan. We didn't have a say in it. When God promised Noah that he would never kill every living thing by water again, it wasn't dependent
on anyone's belief. Why is this covenant different? How can Satan's deception or our ignorance be greater than the intentions and actions of God
and Jesus combined?
I didn't have a choice when I was born of who my parents were, or what color my skin would be, or what country I would be raised in. But this very
important spiritual choice, upon which my fate for all eternity rests, is mine and only mine to make. Because God has to do something with me, one
thing or the other, the choice is mine. Even though God and Jesus did this thing, this cosmic eternal miraculous thing, it means nothing unless I
In what universe does belief create reality? If Jesus' sacrifice was real and Satan and Heaven and Hell are real, then my belief or disbelief
doesn't change that. But disbelief does guarantee me a seat in Hell, according to the Catholic Church.
So this is the problem. Either Jesus was successful or he wasn't. If I go Hell because I don't believe, then in my opinion, Jesus failed his
mission. Can God fail?
That's my problem, the fatal flaw of Christianity, IMHO, that God needs my positive belief for his plan to succeed.