Fellow atheists, let's accept the free gift

Originally posted by halfoldman
Exactly how did you accept the free gift?
Did you say the sinner's prayer, perhaps with a preacher on TV?

Well, when I was younger, I accepted Jesus. I did that several times afterwards as well. I truly loved and believed in him. I gave up my life in the U.S. to live for him overseas speaking to drug addicts for around 2 years.

I am no longer a christian and have considered myself an agnostic atheist for around 4 years now.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by r2d246

Originally posted by Hydroman
We are told that the christian god has sent his only son, who was an innocent person, to die for our evil deeds so that we can be forgiven by him. If we don't accept this free gift of salvation, we will be punished for eternity.

We are told that we can accept this FREE gift of salvation by asking him for it.

Fine, I'll take this free gift.

Guess I get to live in heaven now? That wasn't hard.

Being a free gift, I shouldn't have to do anything to receive it but ask for it. If I have to work for it, it is no longer a free gift. If I have to do anything else to receive it or to keep it, it is no longer free.

So again, sure, I'll take this free gift since it has been offered to me many times.

Wow look at you! NICE!!! You're getting it! See that wasn't hard. You exercised your faith. It's like you made a call to the higher power. Now you're gonna be shocked at what happened next when he comes to answer. Everyone always is. My suggestion, don't get wrapped up in any details or specifics. All you have to do now is wait and watch. I'm sure you're still very skeptical but you're in for some bizarre events that for sure.

Well, I've done this same thing many times in the past as well when I was a believer....

Well if God chooses you you won't be able to resist him.

Originally posted by r2d246
Well if God chooses you you won't be able to resist him.

What happened to free will?

reply to post by Hydroman


Free will is not a universal law. God doesn't always preserve it. The thing is, God knows who is capable of what at all times throughout history, and he may use some of them for his own purposes according to what they're already capable of. No one is capable of saving themselves, but God knows those who are fit for service in his Kingdom and he will consequently make sure that these come to have faith in him (the Greek word for "faith" used in the NT means conviction due to divine persuasion). Faith is a gift from God, it is not a natural human ability. This is why those who are faithful in Christ are called the "elect" or "chosen."

However, that doesn't mean that someone who has faith won't abandon that faith. Demas was a faithful worker with the apostle Paul, but he later abandoned Paul because he cared more for the things of the world than the things of God.
And Paul was constantly concerned for his brothers and sisters in Christ, always labouring to keep them from deception and the temptations of the world.

But, I might add, nothing happens (or doesn't happen) without God allowing it. Even though God was responsible for Demas' faith, he was also apparently willing to let him lose that faith when the world overcame him. For what purpose, it's hard to say, but it's God's plan at work... and remember, all receive life in Christ anyway, it's just a matter of separating those who reign and serve with him in the Kingdom from those who merely reside and serve there following God's judgment.

reply to post by Hydroman


The Gift of God is eternal life through Christ our Lord,

You cannot say you have the Gift yet not bear fruits of the Gift,

You are only deceiving yourself,

God bless

reply to post by CLPrime

No one is capable of saving themselves, but God knows those who are fit for service in his Kingdom and he will consequently make sure that these come to have faith in him

You do realize how warped this sounds? "God can't stand losing, so he'll make sure he wins one way or another. It doesn't matter if he's right, because he's God."

The more I hear about him, the more I want to play hockey with his tonsils. He reminds me of a celestial Hitler. Even down to that lie - we can't save ourselves? So what's with the gift of Jesus? Are you telling me that's all a lie?

Now sit back everyone, let's watch Mr. Prime backpedal furiously to reinterpret what he said until it no longer sounds anything like his original statement.

(the Greek word for "faith" used in the NT means conviction due to divine persuasion).

Pray tell, how do you know it's divine? Most of the persuasion I see in religion comes from the mouths of self-deluded men.

Faith is a gift from God, it is not a natural human ability. This is why those who are faithful in Christ are called the "elect" or "chosen."

...

reply to post by CLPrime


lol

You must excuse Hydroman's ignorance, he really doesn't know much so he tends to come to christians with an attitude. 6 months I am here and since all that time, his perception did not evolved much.

Well, this is your topic, mate, so, I wish you luck... But, between me and you, I doubt Hydroman's worth it. I mean, it's been 6 months he does that, I doubt his attitude will ever change.

Not all atheists can objectively consider other possibilities...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

...

reply to post by swan001


I no longer desire to live on this planet. I no longer desire to be human. Maybe I no longer desire to live. Not if this is the kind of stuff I have to put up with. Maybe I should take medicine to increase my tolerance for bullcrap.

Seriously, what is wrong with people these days? If you've ever seen the WTF meme, that's my face right now.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'm not sure how most of your responses fit with the sections you quoted (honestly, I don't think you understand anything I said)...but if all I'm going to be doing is putting you off more, then I'll shut up. I didn't come here to be an apologist anyway, I came here to clear up a significant misunderstanding in Hydroman's post.

I will say this, just to be clear. Despite what you said being mostly unrelated to what I wrote, I do agree with a lot of what you said. I have a similar disdain for Christianity and the overwhelming majority of those who profess it.
The apostle Paul worked day and night to pay his own way so the churches he supported wouldn't have to pay him, and I think every minister, from the Pope to the lowliest back-woods preacher, should have to do the same. When I preach, I take no one's money. They give me $25, and I give it right back plus what I normally give. These congregations are not here to keep money in my pocket, I'm here to keep them Spiritually healthy and encouraged. This should be the attitude of every servant who preaches and teaches in Jesus' name. This is how you tell a true servant from a false servant...by who or what they serve.

reply to post by CLPrime

This is how you tell a true servant from a false servant...by who or what they serve.

I no longer care who is a true or false servant. I can see from the actions of mankind that all they wand is a good story, not a true one. In a world made of lies, all that's desired is a lie that's useful, because truth is guaranteed to bring pain where comfortable lies are so much friendlier.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by halfoldman
Exactly how did you accept the free gift?
Did you say the sinner's prayer, perhaps with a preacher on TV?

Well, when I was younger, I accepted Jesus. I did that several times afterwards as well. I truly loved and believed in him. I gave up my life in the U.S. to live for him overseas speaking to drug addicts for around 2 years.

I am no longer a christian and have considered myself an agnostic atheist for around 4 years now.

Thanks for explaining a bit further.

It does sound a bit confusing though, because you accepted the "free gift" (well just about all that's "free" in specifically Christianity in the long-term), but you did this in a phase of your life when you did actually believe it.

Atheists are not in this phase of life, so why on earth would they accept anything which they see as unproven, ridiculous, and as a morally unsound religious fairy-tale?

You're basically asking atheists to believe in the Christ-myth, and a doctrine going back to the Nicene Creed.
That rails against everything most atheists believe!

It's basically like asking a group of Christian missionaries that come to an island where the natives worship the volcano-god (for example) to accept the heathen deity (because it's free, and so are the god's blessings for the afterlife), even if they don't actively worship that god.

I dunno, just because something's for free (like chanting Hare Krishna) doesn't mean all people will do it.

I'm not sure you can receive the gift repeatedly (different Christians might differ on this).
Sounds like you had alternating phases of taking it and giving it back, and taking it and giving it back ...

Just asking, but it sounds like you were not an atheist/agnostic when you received the gift.
Atheism actually means not believing in such spiritual gifts, so why should atheists be interested?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

reply to post by CLPrime


I gave you both a star.

Today, the truth is buried, or more accurately, shattered, like a mirror, and its pieces are spread, lost. I feel a revolution, a paradigm change, is needed. Current philosophies are all affected by a flaw or another... I just hope we are still alive when the truth will be (if ever) revealed.

Originally posted by swan001
You must excuse Hydroman's ignorance, he really doesn't know much so he tends to come to christians with an attitude.

First, thanks for offering an apology on my behalf. Secondly, I agree, I don't know much.

Originally posted by swan001
6 months I am here and since all that time, his perception did not evolved much.

I believe you're right.

Originally posted by swan001
Well, this is your topic, mate, so, I wish you luck...

But, between me and you, I doubt Hydroman's worth it. I mean, it's been 6 months he does that, I doubt his attitude will ever change.

Who knows?

Originally posted by swan001
Not all atheists can objectively consider other possibilities...

I do. Do you?

Originally posted by halfoldman
It's basically like asking a group of Christian missionaries that come to an island where the natives worship the volcano-god (for example) to accept the heathen deity (because it's free, and so are the god's blessings for the afterlife), even if they don't actively worship that god.

That's a good point. Thanks for letting me see that point of view and it makes sense. I believe I am wrong with my OP.

Also, I appreciate your kind attitude with me. Some of the others are kind of off-putting, but they gotta do what they think is right.

reply to post by Hydroman

Thanks for an interesting post and idea.

It raises many questions, especially as identities are really more fluid than ever, and a lot of people are hardly as boxed-in as their "labels" might suggest.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by r2d246
Well if God chooses you you won't be able to resist him.

What happened to free will?

It would be preserved as you'd only find out by some strange personal event.

reply to post by r2d246


Either "God" is omniscient and omnipotent, giving him responsibility over everything that has happened and will ever happen, because he created everything and set in motion the immeasurably large chain of events that echo through every last life that will ever live, knowing exactly how every little thing would play out even as he began...

Or he is NOT omniscient, or omnipotent, which would explain how he is only powerful up to a point and is able to give us free will because not even he knows exactly what we'll do with it.

Either way, he created us. Therefore, if he judges us, he judges himself. The creator is judged along with the creation, because to some extent, the creation is a reflection of the creator. The creation is a representation of what the creator enjoys, what the creator believes in.

If we are to be judged, then "God" must also judge himself - he is the creator, and he is the destroyer. If judgment must exist at all, then he cannot be exempt, for none of this would have happened without his existence.

Originally posted by icepack
the duty to love your enemy

Can we still kill our enemy before he kills us as we love him? See, I have a slight phobia about death.

reply to post by jiggerj

i can relate to your thought. point was, the op was saying that salvation by jesus christ is for free. truth is, to love your enemy, is a vehement challenge. if you can manage it, you will be rewarded in the afterlife, if it exists.