Gaza Versus Israel (and the rest of the arab world) for dummies

reply to post by cody599


God knows if we are talking about the same instance.
My friend is a very trustworthy person and only once have I heard him speak of this instance as I know it had quit an effect on him.
It was around the time of the siege of Bethlehem in an area that had a 24hr zero tolerance curfew so the aid workers would go out to get food for them as they were less likely to be shot. I doubt this was reported as it was not a rare occurrence due in part to the 24hr 'shoot first' curfew and the fact that so many street kids had nowhere to go, also there apparently wasn't any media around as it was too dangerous.

Originally posted by b14warrior
reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

 

When I talk about stealing I am referring to this:



Not ancient or even pre WW1 history but recent history and history that is still happening now.

Even the OP has talked of how he has seen modern thieving of Palestinian olive groves.

You make very good points, b14. There is and will always be a rogue element of "Jewish settlers" and IDF.

In my opinion, we have to look at the bigger question of why are the Palestinians treated miserably everywhere they go?

I think it all points back to the O.P.'s video, once again.

The mass abuse of Palestinians at the hands of Arab leaders began with the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem in the War of 1948. Before launching the war, leaders of the invading Arab armies ordered Palestinian Arabs to leave their homes so they could “obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in”. From then until today, Palestinians refugees have been denied basic rights in almost every Arab country where they have sought shelter, including Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iraq. Libya expelled 30,000 of its Palestinian refugees; Kuwait expelled over 400,000. Yasser Arafat himself said that “What Kuwait did to the Palestinian people is worse than what has been done by Israel to Palestinians in the occupied territories.”

According to the Arab League, the explicit policy of denying Palestinians citizenship in other Arab countries and keeping them in “very bad conditions” is in order “to preserve their Palestinian identity”. An Egyptian foreign minister also openly stated that the intention in demanding the right of Palestinian refugees to return “is the extermination of Israel”.

arabisraeliconflict.info...

Rest assured if the arab world layed down their weapons the average Isreali would not see any reason to start a war. All they want, the same as the average Palistinian is to work to provide for their kids and live in peace

reply to post by cody599



Yes, I don't dispute that most if not all mainstream and secular israeli (whether jewish or not) want to live in peace side by side and stop all this needless bloodshed.I think it is the extreme ideologies being used on both sides in the form of political agendas and brutish regimes now in control in Israeli and in Palenstine are needlessly destroying lives. My point in bringing up the additional info. was to bring to the discussion a possible bias in the personal views of the Mr. Prager when you presented the video. I don't wish to take sides. My disgust is for the shattered lives and stress put on for the innocent children caught up in the fighting on both sides. No one should be living under such conditions in this day and age and any right minded personal to put up with this crime against the innocents gives me no hope for any of us as race of Human Beings.

reply to post by b14warrior


I don't doubt your friends intentions, you're correct there was no media, but there were witnesses I was one. The news wasn't interested in the truth as they weren't there and it didn't sell papers. Mayhaps it was a different incident but it left one hell of an impression on me.

Originally posted by itsallmaya

Rest assured if the arab world layed down their weapons the average Isreali would not see any reason to start a war. All they want, the same as the average Palistinian is to work to provide for their kids and live in peace

reply to post by cody599

 

Yes, I don't dispute that most if not all mainstream and secular israeli (whether jewish or not) want to live in peace side by side and stop all this needless bloodshed.I think it is the extreme ideologies being used on both sides in the form of political agendas and brutish regimes now in control in Israeli and in Palenstine are needlessly destroying lives. My point in bringing up the additional info. was to bring to the discussion a possible bias in the personal views of the Mr. Prager when you presented the video. I don't wish to take sides. My disgust is for the shattered lives and stress put on for the innocent children caught up in the fighting on both sides. No one should be living under such conditions in this day and age and any right minded personal to put up with this crime against the innocents gives me no hope for any of us as race of Human Beings.

Thankyou
IMHO you are 100% correct the innocents should be protected, I no longer serve in the IDF I live a relatively comfortable life with a wife I love and consider myself very fortunate. My kids live in south Israel with my ex wife, whilst I can no longer presume innocence I can remember it. A least I know the guys I trained were taught to put the kids first. I hope they remembered that in times of anger.

reply to post by Deetermined

Thankyou for taking the time to do the research.

To all that have responded to this thread thankyou for your time, I know it is precious. The intention was to create a thread that inspired intelligent debate and it damn near did that. Thank you. Please feel free to continue however I now need to call my kids and eat my dinner and watch a GP, a bit of Cody time. Thanks again.
Respect

DEAR god, that video is the definition of biased and one sided.....that should be the an example in an interactive dictionary of what biased means.........fail thread.......

reply to post by cody599


That's a really good video.

If most of it was true, there probably would be peace in the middle east.

I think it only tells one side of the story tho

Great video, S&F

Unfortunately, the other side thrives on propaganda, not facts.

And as WWII showed us, propaganda can take possession of the entire population, regardless of how unreasonable it is.

This is due to the natural antipathy between reason and emotion. One side, Israel, posts facts at it's twitter; the other side, Hamas, posts pictures of dead children, or a father with his little boy or girl in his arms. A touching, yet exceedingly demagogic image.

Let me give you an example with how this propaganda works. Almost everyone can see that the majority of people are now 'pro-palestine', So my brother, who's a chef, tells me that at work his Arab co-worker Marwan asked him what his views of what was happening in Gaza were. Seeing that this was being discussed by a few co-workers, and all of them were in general agreement as to the 'evil' of Israel, my brother didn't want to say anything. But, he probed, and my brother said he supported Israel's right to defend themselves, which devolved into a long argument between him and his co-workers.

This is where the emotional effect comes into play. We all want to be liked; when people are being mean to us, and we feel excluded, and we understand that a certain subject - a political issue - is the reason for this, this can be extremely grating. And THIS - is in the case of someone who knows the facts, but still wants to salvage his personal relationships, understanding that they are being negatively affected by politics. So, my brother comes home (we live together) and tells me about his conversation. Surprisingly, I hear confusion in his voice, this, despite the fact that I've informed him of everything going on, that's he's read many of the book's I own. He was vacillating because his social relationships, his happiness, was being undermined by this situation. So, he was willing to take a 'I don't know' stance in order to avoid confrontation.

This is the case of someone who has clearly defined views. So what's going to happen with the individuals who don't have clearly defined views? Are they going to incline to the unpopular view, or the popular view? Seeing education is necessary to come to a reasoned understanding, can all people do it? It depends. Those of us who are emotionally or intellectually immature won't be willing to depart from a position we initially held to. The facts I learned were meant to support a certain view - the one initially accepted - so the more I know, the more intractably rooted I become in a particular perspective.

Truth and facts reign where emotion has been circumscribed as much as possible. If a fact of the situation happens to contradict my views, I am required by my adherence to my principles (if I am principled, and not simply an egotist) to change my views.

So many people here can't - due to cognitive dissonance - address or integrate the fact that Israel has a right to defend themselves from Hamas rocket attacks. They are stunted at this point; they either drop the conversation, or change the subject. And yet this is the crucial point which determines the other issues involved.

Originally posted by ISeekTruth101
DEAR god, that video is the definition of biased and one sided.....that should be the an example in an interactive dictionary of what biased means.........fail thread.......

Its bigoted points of views like Pragers, on both sides, that encourages this conflict to continue. yes, it failed as a thread to discuss the current bloodshed on an intelligent basis, but succeeded in showing the types of views that have encouraged the bloodshed for 50 yrs+

reply to post by GeneralMishka


I completely agree......i listened to the first few minutes about how he studies the entire palestine-israel conflict/history/roots in the middle east and was expecting an intelligent explanation......than suddenly i thought i switched BBC or Fox news on and he just started talking utter BS........what a waste of time....

reply to post by GeneralMishka


What's bigoted about Pragers views?

He condemns Hamas, a totalitarian, Islamist regime.

reply to post by GeneralMishka

Its bigoted points of views like Pragers, on both sides, that encourages this conflict to continue. yes, it failed as a thread to discuss the current bloodshed on an intelligent basis, but succeeded in showing the types of views that have encouraged the bloodshed for 50 yrs+

Do you mean views like these?

Egyptian President Morsi Joins Preacher in Prayer for Destruction and Dispersal of the Jews, from MEMRI, October 19:

Following are excerpts from a sermon delivered by Egyptian cleric Futouh Abd Al-Nabi Mansour, Head of Religious Endowment, Matrouh governorate, in the presence of Egyptian President Muhammad Morsi.

The sermon aired on Egyptian Channel 1 on October 19, 2012.

Futouh Abd Al-Nabi Mansour: [...] Oh Allah, absolve us of our sins, strengthen us, and grant us victory over the infidels. Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, disperse them, rend them asunder. Oh Allah, demonstrate Your might and greatness upon them. Show us Your omnipotence, oh Lord....

www.jihadwatch.org...

Notice, the keyword there is "Jews", not Zionists.

Regardless of what's said in public by Arab leaders, you can learn a lot about the mindset of the country and their leaders by looking up transcripts of what's said during prayer sessions, especially during Iran's "Friday Prayers" by Khamenei.

Here is an article and a video in regard to claims of Israel creating Hamas. Will post more thoughts later, heading out the door right now.

"How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas" Wall Street Journal 2009

online.wsj.com...



"Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09"

reply to post by curiouscanadian777


You have no thought to add later.

Hamas was created and founded by the Muslim Brotherhood. They share the same ideology, network, and political program.

Israel helped prop up Hamas so as to create disunity amongst the Palestinians. It backfired, end of story.

You talk as if Israel "created" Hamas, i.e. it's ideology and belief system. Hamas recruits based on this. Israel only propped them financially and helped bring them into relevance.

It is unbelievably annoying that this nonsense continues to get posted here.

reply to post by curiouscanadian777


Ron Paul screwed up by using the words "create".

The article from the WSJ on "helping to spawn" is more accurate.

However, Hamas was founded as a result of the "First Intifada".

en.wikipedia.org...

The Muslim Brotherhood is the one who "created" Hamas.

reply to post by Deetermined


If you actually listen to the video in which Ron Paul says Israel "started up" Hamas, before his using that word he said "encouraged". He should have left it at that.

Encouraged is the word that should be applied to Israel's relationship with Hamas. They made the incredible mistake of thinking helping Hamas would be preferable to Arafat's PLO. In hindsight, no, Hamas is far more radical than the PLO could ever be. Suicide bombing is a uniquely Islamist prerogative. Nowhere else in the world do we find people doing this. Only radicalized Muslims.

Just to clarify - Ron Paul didn't post that video and he didn't create the title, (nor did I) and as you said, he didn't use those words in his speech.

It is a fact that the policies of the govts in question do this to themselves, and then have the audacity to ask "Why are they doing this? Why do they hate us? They hate us for our freedom! If only they'd stop, we'd stop" etc etc etc.
No, they are reaping what they sow, just like with Al Qaeda, as Ron Paul mentions also.
And we are paying for it, financially and otherwise.
They are complete hypocrites and liars; war mongering, war profiteering psychopaths, etc etc etc.
They only promote 'democracy' in nations that are not bending to their will, that will not co-operate to further foreign interests at the expense of their own. They support/encourage/engineer the overthrowing of elected leaders in order to install dictators all.the.time. Over and over. And remain quiet about the many injustices that are going on all over the world. They don't care about people-not citizens in other countries and neither their own citizens.
If they would simply tell the truth about their motives, instead of promoting these lies of 'humanitarianism' and 'democracy' I would have more respect for them. They prey on a deluded public who becomes their cheerleaders, and then engage in arguments like this on their behalf.
Sickening.


Regarding your statement from another thread:

Originally posted by dontreally reply to post by ken10 Here's the source Lin k. www.haaretz.com... It's from Haarertz. Stupid thing for eli yishai to say.

In regard to this comment: 7:55 P.M. Interior Minister Eli Yishai on Israel's operation in Gaza: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."

No, I think he was actually being honest for once, and if you think a large amount of Israeli's and their apologists don't feel this way, and that they are right to do so, you are fooling yourself.
Unless you meant it was stupid from a PR standpoint? I suppose it was.

The lecturer has some interesting perspectives, that is for sure...

I wonder if he has ever come across, in all of his "Jews" studies, the Balfour Declaration of 1917? ( en.wikipedia.org... ) ( history1900s.about.com... ), etc etc.............

reply to post by curiouscanadian777

They prey on a deluded public who becomes their cheerleaders, and then engage in arguments like this on their behalf. Sickening.

What are you views of Hamas' ideology, Islamism? Islamism is totalitarian - controls everything from the center. TV, Newspapers, Schools, push the Islamic fundamentalism that Hamas want's the people of Gaza to believe in. As Palestine Media Watch has shown, Hamas indoctrinates Palestinians of Gaza to hate Jews - not Israelis - since this would be in conformity with their religious views; they deny basic facts of history, like the fact of there being two Jewish states in the ancient past (claiming this is a Zionist lie, despite the dead sea scrolls, histories of josephus, seutonius, philo, discovery of ancient coins, etc from that era); the highest selling books in the Gaza strip are 'protocols of the elders of zion' and 'mein kampf'. They condition their population to a propaganda that was mostly invented by the Nazis, combined with a religious extremism against Jews.

Is this a government that we should support? Do you know Hamas, as stated in the charter, want's to establish an Islamic state to replace both Israel and the Palestinian Authority?

No, I think he was actually being honest for once,

First, if you understand the nature of Israel's parliamentary government, Eli Yishai's words only reflect Eli Yishai's Orthodox Jewish opinions. They are not reflective of the labor, likud, kadima etc ministers of Israel.

The majority of Israelis simply want the rocket attacks to end.

Unless you meant it was stupid from a PR standpoint? I suppose it was

Yes, incredibly stupid from a PR standpoint.

However, you never know if Haaretz - the nations liberal newspaper - made up the quote to smear the character of the far right leader of Shas (sephardic religious party).